Addressing Roshi's Feat

[SomebodyData]

@AKM sama The Supreme Kais are both Tier 4 and create tier 4 celestial bodies, Moro lost his original power but once regained it his magic and AP were equal despite continuously gaining boosts primarily to his ki, Babidi doesn't use ki nor magic offensively. Admittedly Buu was a stretch, though I was thinking about how his body control being used to create weapons or restraints separated from himself, such as in his fight with Vegeta.

Wouldn't that be from Goku struggling to move up there? Granted, I probably need to read that section of the manga again to find a scan of Goku struggling, so don't take my word on that for now.

@ProfessorKukui4Life Well A- Even if we assume that, its been less then 2 years, B- The second 130 days were offpanel too, hence why it's probably clustered together (Especially considering they discovered Goku was still alive before then, and the panel notes that a year passed since they began waiting for him to come back).

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

130 days is a Namekian year, sure.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Yes, I had permission to comment.

@AKM sama No, we need a reason not to scale. We already know magic and their general AP/ki are comparable among users like Buu, the Kais, Moro, etc; to argue Kami is the sole exception needs a reason.

The problem with this statement is:

1. In Buu's case, the only time he uses Magic offensively is in the form of the Transfiguration Beam but even then, when he used it against Vegito, it actually turned him into candy, despite Vegito being far more powerful than he was, which alone disproves the notion that AP from Ki is always comparable to AP from Magic.
   
   
2. Moro has been established as having incredibly fearsome and powerful magic abilities, so his magic scaling to or even above his power through Ki isn't too far-fetched, considering he put up a good fight against Super Saiyan God Vegeta with his magic energy powers, despite being physically decrepit.

The Supreme Kais are both Tier 4 and create tier 4 celestial bodies

Shin is also Tier 4 for scaling above Buu Saga Piccolo by "dimensions", scaling above Frieza being able to one-shot him and everything, and managing to restrain Super Saiyan 2 Gohan with Paralysis long enough for Babidi's goons to drain him, although those last two justifications aren't listed on his page.

Moro lost his original power but once regained it his magic and AP were equal despite continuously gaining boosts primarily to his ki

After regaining his original power, as well as after absorbing all of Goku and Vegeta's energy during their first encounter, I don't believe Moro resorted to using magic anymore, except for when he attempted to absorb the energy from his already defeated opponents (Goku after UI -Sign- Goku vs Moro) and during the fight with Ultra Instinct Goku, in which he scarred himself, which I believe was because he was caught off-guard and already incredibly weakened. I may be wrong, though.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

130 days is a Namekian year, sure.

This is probably what confused me then as well by accidentally mixing the 2.

Alright, I’ll concede to this point.

 

[AKM sama]

In all those examples, Shin is the only coincidence here. Babidi despite being physically very weak or not having much AP, was able to use his magic to fend off against Buu's and Majin Vegeta's powerful attacks. That right there is an example of how Magic power is different than ki.

Old Moro's magic packs bajilions of times more power than his normal ki based attacks. That again is pretty blatant example of how magic and ki don't correlate.

If you want to make an argument that Kami's Moon creation magic actually scales to his ki based AP, you need to provide evidences since we have literally no basis to outright assume that and it goes against how the verse treats it.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Didn’t Babadi also use his magic to fend off Piccolos attacks too? Or was that anime only?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

That was anime-only.

 

[SomebodyData]

You're talking about the forcefield creation right? Ignoring the fact that it's not AP and by extension not what we're talking about, forcefields have been shown to be much more durable than the character's AP in DB before. Like 17. Or if we wanna go non-canon, Baby Broly.

Old Moro specifically lost most of his power, sealed by the Grand Supreme Kai. Nullflower mentioned how Moro even stopped using magic as often once he regained the power, which can mean that Ki might just be > than magic.

The thing about Supreme Kai being a coincidence is that all Supreme Kais have the role to create celestial bodies, and the ones we've seen have either exceeded their magic potential or been on par, like the Grand Supreme Kai or Zamas.

It also doesn't help that Shenron's magic being limited by Kami's power is a direct correlation there.

 

[AKM sama]

Wouldn't that be from Goku struggling to move up there? Granted, I probably need to read that section of the manga again to find a scan of Goku struggling, so don't take my word on that for now.

Goku just got tired quickly after running around a bit due to the altitude but that happened after he fought Popo when he was fresh and at full strength. Nothing about having difficulties in movement since he was able to move quite well. So it won't make sense for Popo telling Goku to learn to move faster than lightning, when he is already supposed to be like 4% SoL.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

It also doesn't help that Shenron's magic being limited by Kami's power is a direct correlation there.

This sounds more like a caveat to the magic rather than Kamis AP scales above the magic.

And the latter doesn’t really make sense.

 

[AKM sama]

Old Moro specifically lost most of his power, sealed by the Grand Supreme Kai.

It was actually the opposite (someone can correct me), his magic was what was sealed off, not his ki. And when the little amount of magic returned to him, it was still way more than his AP at that point. With his youth being restored, he obviously got much stronger normally, but that was not my point.

Also, the point of Shin/Zamasu exceeding their magic doesn't support your point about them being comparable. It just supports mine that they are not comparable. While some might have more magic power, some might have less than their ki based power. So what proves Kami's magic is comparable or less than his AP?

 

[Damage3245]

It was actually the opposite (someone can correct me), his magic was what was sealed off, not his ki.

Also, the point of Shin/Zamasu exceeding his magic doesn't support your point about them being comparable. It just supports mine that they are not comparable. While some might have more magic power, some might have less than their ki based power. So what proves Kami's magic is comparable or less than his AP?

That is correct. It was Moro's magic power that was sealed off.

He regained a tiny fraction of it which allowed him to escape prison and fight Goku and Vegeta (mostly through energy drain + manipulating the planet).

Then Moro wished for his full magic power back, and he got it.

Then after that Moro went around eating up all the planet's with high life energy he could find until he was massively more powerful in terms of physical stats / ki.

And even once he lost all that energy he still had his original magic power.

 

[Warren_Valion]

What the frickity frack happened here?

I leave for two days and the number of comments triple and we are discussing Moro from Super?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I honestly forget. What are we even trying to discuss at this point?

 

[00potato]

When something is this blatant you need a big stretch to disprove it.

Can we stop derailing and get back to the scaling?

 

[SomebodyData]

@AKM sama and @Damage3245 The page for Moro is a bit misleading if that's what this is based on. 4-B also includes his magic (Tried fighting through his normal magic / telekinesis against SSJ Vegeta but Vegeta immediately went into God form after a bit of telekinesis), 3-B is with magic while manipulating the planet's energy.

He even physically takes a couple of hits from SSJG Vegeta so it might be more accurate to put his durability (therefore ki) above magic.

I brought up the possibility of them being stronger than their magic to show that Kami would be stronger than 5-C assuming magic and ki aren't correlated.

EDIT: Though the specifics really is getting off topic, especially considering the Kais prove my point well enough.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Please let us get back on topic. This very minor point has been stretched thin.

What we need to talk about are the big booms Piccolo did.

I'll be back for that.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

A point about magic not scaling to AP when this “blatant” argument relies on it to be consistent in the first place isn’t minor.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Yes it is. It's not the main point of the thread. The main point is that Roshi destroyed the moon and those who are stronger than him should scale to it.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yes and adding more 5-C feats to make Roshis not an outlier is just as important as that to make the argument stand.

Get rid of them and the argument becomes a lot less solid as it was before if nothing else.

 

[SomebodyData]

Tbf it does matter. Now that the feat belongs to Kami, the opposition has to argue to make it unscalable.

Though with the other points (King Piccolo's other 7-B feat and tier 6 statement) accepted, we technically don't need to use Kami at this point. Regardless, adding Kami would make it much more reliable, so I point back to my response above.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The tier 6 statement has been addressed already before in a previous thread as well, ill link that in a bit to bring its counter points.

And I already addressed the other “7-B” feat here. The casual attack from KP is not 7-B.

 

[SomebodyData]

I already addressed the counterpoints within my op.

KP stated he destroyed the entire city, and so did the King of the World. A few buildings surviving doesn't change that.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Uh, it kinda does.

What’s shown > what KP said.

 

[SomebodyData]

A few buildings surviving doesn't mean the majority of the city survived, especially when King Piccolo and the King of the World (Who I think would be considered the knowledgable of his own capital) state that the city was destroyed immediately during and after.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

For one, even if it was majority of the city, that still isn’t 7-B unless someone wants to try calcing what was destroyed to see how strong it is.

And two, it wasn’t even a few buildings. Half the city is shown on the bottom of the scan to be in tact after that blast:

 

[Warren_Valion]

You would need a calc to definitely say if it's 7-B or not.


But does it really matter? Isn't the whole point of the argument that the feat was casual and that it shouldn't be used as proof that Roshi's Moon feat an outlier?

Or am I missing something here?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

You would need a calc to definitely say if it's 7-B or not.


But does it really matter? Isn't the whole point of the argument that the feat was casual and that it shouldn't be used as proof that Roshi's Moon feat an outlier?

Or am I missing something here?

The feat being casual isn’t the issue, it’s the tier of what it is/would be that is

Unless something proves it’s 7-B, you can’t claim a casual attack that’s likely 2 or so tiers below 7-B means 7-B can’t be the limit for KP. Which is what the OP is arguing on this point.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Wasn't his hand wave calculated to be City level+?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Wasn't his hand wave calculated to be City level+?

IIRC, I believe this was his demon wave move that was 7-B+ (The one Zamasu linked earlier)

I don’t recall seeing a single calc made for KPs casual hand wave attack.

 

[00potato]

That doesn’t make the tier a problem? It was casual, the actual result has nothing to do with this since he wasn’t going all out.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

When the feat itself is, based on what it’s shown, to be 2 or so tiers below what his strongest attack was calced at, it is an issue.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Prof Well it was the city is the capital of the world, I would assume it's something like Constantinople (Considering its the capital of the world / if we take central city literally) or Tokyo in scope. We can try to find someone to calculate it though even if it's like 50% of the city and both the King and KP lied to themselves for some reason, it's still going to be pretty huge.

The calc is for the demon wave (Though now some parts of it are pretty dead, like the link within the calc to another calc).

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

If someone can calc the casual hand wave feat to be 7-B, i’ll gladly concede on this line of argumentation.

But until then, I don’t think it’s wise for to assume it’s 7-B when visuals wise it doesn’t align with what was said.

 

[Spinoirr]

I mean we list Saiyan saga Vegeta planet level based on Vegeta saying he will Detroy the planet and that's it

What's so different from a statement that characters take seriously vs a on screen showing of power and a bunch of lower level feats that are done casually and mostly a show of power to people who have no idea how strong ki attacks can be

 

[SomebodyData]

Just a reminder to everyone this is supposed to be staff only with a few exceptions.

EDIT: Had the feat requested. Back to topic.

 

[Antvasima]

Please let us get back on topic. This very minor point has been stretched thin.

What we need to talk about are the big booms Piccolo did.

Agreed.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Also wanted to give a reminder that I asked and got permission to participate (just Incase some thought I just came straight here)

Anyway, I’ll wait and see what the request calc gives for now.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

They are correct that it isn't minor, magic not scaling to AP is a big thing in Dragon Ball whenever someone with magic shows up.

 

[SomebodyData]

The page for Moro is a bit misleading if that's what this is based on. 4-B also includes his magic (Tried fighting through his normal magic / telekinesis against SSJ Vegeta but Vegeta immediately went into God form after a bit of telekinesis), 3-B is with magic while manipulating the planet's energy.

He even physically takes a couple of hits from SSJG Vegeta so it might be more accurate to put his durability (therefore ki) above magic.

The only example against this is Babidi, who doesn't use magic offensively so there is no argument there either.

Supreme Kais (Shin, Zamas, and Grand) all prove this too. Now that I think about it, Spike the Devilman proves this as well with his Creation Magic.

@Matthew_Schroeder