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Addressing Roshi's Feat

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Do we even know how large these 43 sectors are? Or if they cover all available land on the Earth?
 
https://cdn.***************.com/file/mangap/1063/20101000/2.jpghttps://cdn.***************.com/file/mangap/1063/20166000/6.jpg

It's never stated Piccolo receives the abilities of his fusee, nor has he been shown using them to my knowledge. All it's stated to do is increase his strength and grant him the knowledge and memories of the fusee.
 
The "empty your soul" thing is so that Goku can be calm and not waste his movements, as suggested in earlier conversation "empty your soul/be as calm as the sky" and "move faster than lightning" are two different things. Nevertheless, I don't know why we are delving into this when the point remains the same - Goku at this point in time cannot move faster than lightning and it is painfully blatant. I already covered Gohan's and Jaco's examples earlier. At this point, I will just be repeating myself. Also, there is Popo's statement which is a plot point and a later feat that proves that statement along with all the prior feats that fit together quite consistently, against a single feat which sticks out and we already consider outlier which causes a blatant inconsistency in speed.

The Rabbit thing is a feat, just not worth looking into because of its gag nature which is not meant to be taken seriously and the sheer amount of inconsistencies and contradictions it brings with itself.

A direct 5-C rating for Kami is a problem due to its own issues. Roshi's stuff is unrelated to it.

From what I remember, destroying India should be somewhere in the tier 6. Not sure where though. But still not tier 5.
 
Monster Carrot example appears to just be a toon physics, gag feat involving a mini moon. Using that as an example would be a reason to upgrade Donkey Kong's 6-B feat to a 5-C feat.
 
Mini-moon? @DarkDragonMedeus Where did you get that?

@AKM I responded to your point about Gohan and Jaco by pointing out that's a cope out: "And why can't he see his opponent? It was just because of speed unless you want to argue with people who can't sense chi are practically blind to people with Popo's level of speed or higher."

Again, you just described most of early DB. Even the mountain feat of Roshi is played for a gag.

Kami's feat has its issues, yeah, but minor in comparison to 7-B Roshi and KP.

Not tier 5 but debunks the notion that Roshi's feat is an outlier though, which is what matters here.
 
I am sure I replied to that but I am too lazy to scroll above and look for it. Gohan's issue is same as Goku's and Piccolo told him the same thing Popo told to Goku. Goku was using his eyes to see Popo and failed. Gohan was using his eyes to see the fight and failed. Popo told Goku it's because he is using his eyes and not extrasensory perception and enhanced senses. Piccolo told Gohan the same thing. It allowed them to keep track of their opponents. At no point their own movement speed increased by doing that.

Other stuff from early DB or Roshi's mountain feats don't cause massive plotholes and inconsistencies like the Rabbit thing.

I don't see how a much stronger character having a tier 6 feat debunks the idea of a much weaker character having a higher feat. If it did, then 23rd Budokai Goku and Piccolo being 6-B would have validated it long ago. But I think it is still better to get a calc for it so we could see just how much it yields. @Damage3245 can you calc it?
 
The problem there is that Gohan shouldn't have an issue with following a slower foe. Likewise, Jaco shouldn't be able to keep up with characters millions of times faster but does so through his vision.

Plotholes? If you're referring to Goku being able to stop the power pole mid-extension, I already pointed out how the pole expands up to whatever he predetermines. Roshi's feat being 7-B on the other hand does create inconsistencies, like the scaling line I mentioned, given its only 3x lower than full power KP.

Roshi's feat is currently an outlier because people claim 7-B was shown to be the limits of King Piccolo at full power. Being able to do tier 6 feats for fun would debunk that notion.
 
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These were all supposed to be edits but ended up being bigger than my other post, oh well.

EDIT / Additional Points:

It should also be mentioned that the calc for MHS+ Piccolo Jr. is based off a blast of Piccolo Jr. that ignited upon hitting the ground, which is more apparent in the anime version shown in the calc. Basically, the calc is based on the timeframe it took for the blast to eventually reach the ground, limiting the full distance it could have traveled.

We have another Sub-Rel thru Rel feat perfectly in line with the speed growth I'm proposing. In Goku's fight with Tien, the latter prepared a Solar Flare that Goku managed quickly react and shield himself from through Roshi's glasses. Now that's 3 feats.

Honestly, we've written so much off as outlier in the progress of trying to keep KP 7-B consistent that just looking for feats in OG Dragon Ball is proving how much we've tried to maintain the status quo.

EDIT 2 / More Feats:

Looking through ollllld CRTs I've found some more feats that quite frankly, had they been all presented together, would have upgraded Goku a long time ago.

Post-Korin Tower Goku:

Captures a Dragon Ball mid-flight, which disperse around the planet in seconds after Shenlong grants a wish. (MHS - Sub-Rel, the fourth feat on this level)

Korin confirms Goku far surpasses Muten Roshi, adding to the scaling I've pointed out.

So yeah, now speed helps prove Roshi's feat is consistent and should be included.

EDIT 3 / Bonus Feat (Though it doesn't matter in this thread tbh):

Goku escapes a missile after it exploded.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...agon_Ball_Classic_-_Goku_escapes_an_explosion (At least Supersonic+ Kid Goku Early Red Ribbon Saga).
 
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SomebodyData said:
We have another Sub-Rel thru Rel feat perfectly in line with the speed growth I'm proposing. In Goku's fight with Tien, the latter prepared a Solar Flare that Goku managed quickly react and shield himself from through Roshi's glasses. Now that's 3 feats.
Click to expand...
This isn't an instant of Goku actually dodging the Solar Flare, it was aim-dodging.

https://cdn.***************.com/file/mangap/1063/10130000/7.jpgWhen Tien begin to generate the Solar Flare, putting his hands in front of his head and everything, Goku exclaimed "Here it comes!!!!". Goku had already known that the attack was coming, having already seen and been caught off-guard by it when Tien first used it against Jackie Chun, and grabbed Roshi's glasses before Tien could fire it off. It was even established in Chapter 124 that Goku had taken note of the fact that sunglasses negate the effect of the Solar Flare, so he had most likely already planned out a counter to this attack, an attack that he, and many others, proved incapable of actually reacting to in previous chapters. It makes no sense for Goku to have grabbed the glasses after Tien released the Solar Flare because, at that point, he would have already been caught and blinded. It only makes sense for this to occur while Tien is still preparing his attack.

You could argue "There's no way Goku did it before Tien fired it, Tien would have caught him", but earlier in the chapter, Goku proved himself capable of outspeeding, hell, outright blitzing Tien, with his multiple afterimages successfully tricking him, which wouldn't have happened if Goku wasn't faster than him, seeing as how he managed to see through Jackie Chun's Multi-Afterimage.

Even if you choose not to believe Goku is faster than Tien, which would be wrong, and assume they're comparable in speed, Tien would be able to catch him moving after the Solar Flare was released, but he obviously didn't since he was blitzed by Goku after grabbing the sunglasses, which would only make sense if Goku was faster-than-light and blitzed both the Solar Flare and Tien. But he obviously isn't, given how Piccolo at the beginning of Z, who has power and speed many times greater (having seemingly trained extensively between DB and DBZ) than many times greater what King Piccolo, who is much more powerful than 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai Goku had, only scales to ~0.61c (Relativistic+).

Goku reacting to and dodging the Solar Flare is also contradicted by:
  • Goku being previously caught by the Solar Flare when Tien first used it, despite being a fair distance away from Tien.

  • Jackie Chun, who proved capable of putting up a good fight against Tien, even after he got serious, managing to block several of his attacks, deflect his Kamehameha, and get a couple of good hits in, being caught by the Solar Flare.

  • Goku in his fight with Krillin, albeit while holding back, being caught by sunlight reflecting off of Krillin's head.
SomebodyData said:
Captures a Dragon Ball mid-flight, which disperse around the planet in seconds after Shenlong grants a wish. (MHS - Sub-Rel, the fourth feat on this level)
Click to expand...
It's not like he kept a visual lock on the Dragon Balls as they moved at that Earth-scattering level of speed. He determined which Dragon Ball was which when they hovered into the air and floated idly for a few seconds before dispersing, like they have always been shown to do. He was reacting to a stationary target.
 
Excuse me for being hesitant in believing that Tien was blitzed by Goku in the time it took him to mutter the name of the attack given it would make him an insane degree of times faster than Tien. However, I don't think that's what's happening. As Roshi didn't notice when Goku took the glasses, if this all happened beforehand, Roshi would have been blinded. As for the contradictions, all the situations you're bringing up were during surprise attacks, even in later Z (Which your evidence would suggest is far less than LS) the technique only works as long as its used in surprise attacks- it loses all effectiveness (like here) when the opponent knows about it.

Also, Piccolo is referring to his power in that statement. However, assuming he's also talking about speed- yeah. Despite the extreme growth in power for DB, after a while, it plateaued for speed. Between the end of the Frieza Saga to the end of the Buu Saga, the speed growth was incredibly restricted. The same could be said from Raditz Saga to Ginyu Saga. It's not difficult to believe something similar happened from the King Piccolo Saga to Piccolo Jr. Saga, especially considering it would be the smallest plateau of them all.

Sorry I missed the other scan in regards to the DB catching feat. No, they had already begun moving.
 
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Thank you to all staff members for helping out here.
 
The problem there is that Gohan shouldn't have an issue with following a slower foe. Likewise, Jaco shouldn't be able to keep up with characters millions of times faster but does so through his vision.
Click to expand...
Gohan's power level at that instant was lower than Saibamen. Jaco in an exception who possesses far superior eyesight as he himself said. And again being able to keep track of opponents does not effect movement speed at all.

If you're referring to Goku being able to stop the power pole mid-extension, I already pointed out how the pole expands up to whatever he predetermines.
Click to expand...
Citation needed for that because I don't remember it ever being a thing. And you ignored almost all the other things I said about this specific feat here.

Roshi's feat is currently an outlier because people claim 7-B was shown to be the limits of King Piccolo at full power. Being able to do tier 6 feats for fun would debunk that notion.
Click to expand...
We have no reason to believe he can do it casually and the gap from even 6-A to 5-C is almost 40,000 times. And that's not even counting 6-B and 6-C.

We have another Sub-Rel thru Rel feat perfectly in line with the speed growth I'm proposing. In Goku's fight with Tien, the latter prepared a Solar Flare that Goku managed quickly react and shield himself from through Roshi's glasses. Now that's 3 feats.
Click to expand...
Nullflowerblush pretty much covered all bases. Goku even says "here it comes" meaning he was pretty much expecting and ready for it and already thought of grabbing those glasses. Standing in that pose and yelling "taiyo-ken" is plenty of time for Goku to reach Master Roshi who was standing right besides the main fighting area. It's also not like solar flare has a fixed speed seeing how FTL to MFTL+ characters get blitzed by it constantly, unless you want to say all those FTL to MFTL+ characters were actually slower than light all along. It varies with the strength of the user.

Captures a Dragon Ball mid-flight, which disperse around the planet in seconds after Shenlong grants a wish. (MHS - Sub-Rel, the fourth feat on this level)
Click to expand...
We don't know the timeframe so calling it a sub-rel feat would be a stretch.

Korin confirms Goku far surpasses Muten Roshi, adding to the scaling I've pointed out.
Click to expand...
So this would actually make all characters who scale above Tao Pai Pai Moon level and sub-relativistic if it goes through. So not just Goku and Tien from the 22nd tournament.
 
Depends, if you're counting suppressed power levels, sure (981) although Vegeta specifically stated that they were all suppressing them. Once the Namek Saga comes about, Gohan is shown his power level is actually 1500. Unless you want to argue chi doesn't affect both short burst movement speed and perception speed, that seems like a bad take.

Power Pole's Japanese name literally translates to "Staff That Obeys One's Will", it doesn't take too much to understand how it works. Well, I already answered the homage argument, sorry I missed the others:
  • Anyone whose done an explosion calculation can tell you that Boss Carrot did not take the full blast of Roshi's Kamehameha.
  • I'm not surprised that a humanoid rabbit can survive in space? Just because Saiyans, a different species, can't, that doesn't really mean much.
  • I don't see how a magical rabbit man surviving without oxygen breaks the Frieza Saga or RoF Saga.
In the beginning of his fight with Goku, King Piccolo revealed he doesn't go full power because it reduces his lifespan- revealing even as he traveled to destroy the Metro West Sector that he had been restrained. The only reason people believe the AoE argument is null is because King Piccolo is stated to have tired out most of his chi with the attack that destroyed the rest of the city- at that point there is no way to argue outlier.

I already explained why Null's points are null above.

I think we already had a calc for them, but I'll have to look around later.

Who scales above Tao Pai Pai other than 22nd Tournament Goku and Tien?
 
SomebodyData said:
Depends, if you're counting suppressed power levels, sure (981) although Vegeta specifically stated that they were all suppressing them. Once the Namek Saga comes about, Gohan is shown his power level is actually 1500. Unless you want to argue chi doesn't affect both short burst movement speed and perception speed, that seems like a bad take.
Click to expand...
Gohan's Power Level became 1,500 after training with Krillin on the ship to Namek.
 
@Cal Thanks. Yeah, that's not much of a scaling issue (especially considering Gero is probably involved in that mech suit).

@Nullflowerblush the image training? It's unlikely they got much of a boost when we only see them do it once, even if they did it every day it would be only 34 days of training (not to mention the same panel I linked has Krillin commenting on how its Piccolo's training that got him incredibly strong).
 
@SomebodyData

At that instant, his PL was 981, so yeah, he was already slower than Saibamen.

Yeah, power pole does obey the master's will. That was never the point. But your argument was that how much it extends is decided before it starts extending while my argument is that Goku can control up to how much it extends/retracts after it has started extending. So your comment here doesn't address anything.

It seems like you missed the points again so I'll just say it again. Doesn't matter if they did not tank the full explosion, these are normal humans who were one-shotted by Goku who tanked the Moon getting obliterated by Roshi's Moon level kamehameha. And the same normal humans are surviving in space. I don't think you paid attention to what I wrote earlier.

Okay, King Piccolo prefers not to fight at full power but again King Piccolo's statement about a tier 6 feat doesn't validate a much weaker character performing something that could easily be over 40,000 times stronger.

And I also added more points to Null's comments that you missed again.

Adding to the characters Cal listed, we currently also scale 22nd Budokai fighters such as Krillin and Yamcha above Tao too.
 
Power level suppression doesn't affect your speed as much (Trunks for example, or Gohan & Krillin in the majority of the Namek arc). Regardless, doesn't that just debunk your point? As Goku and Piccolo had half the power level of a supressed Gohan and could keep up with raditz (equal to the saibamen) but Gohan, without extrasensory ability, couldn't even see the Saibamen.

Yes, like when we see Goku places the pole above Korin Tower, Goku's initial command to extend as far as possible is achieved without Goku controlling how much it can go. You could probably make the same argument from the moon feat given I doubt Goku knows the exact location of the moon.

Calc how much damage they actually took, then we can talk. I don't think you realize how much of an impact distance from the kamehameha actually makes even if they were on the moon. Regardless, them surviving is incredibly offtopic and not even part of the manga or the feat, but based on what Toriyama said. The point of it being brought up was to show it wasn't a one-off and ignored.

Again, the only reason we have it as an outlier is because of how tired KP is after a 7-B feat. If thats removed, ki control easily explains away the fact that King Piccolo has a tier 6 feat, never mind the fact that he explicitly states he doesn't want to destroy the whole world immediately.

None of what you added debunked anything with my reply to why Goku blitzing Tien is absurd, especially Goku's speed and Roshi not being blinded.

Both of which only scale for fighting Goku before he got serious. It's in their page, all it means is that Goku, well held back, like it says.
 
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SomebodyData said:
Power level suppression doesn't affect your speed as much (Trunks for example, or Gohan & Krillin in the majority of the Namek arc).
Click to expand...
They raise their power in an instant in order to avoid detection by the Scouters, something that was explained in the Namek Saga when Goku first did it. In the Namek Saga, Gohan and Krillin didn't do a whole lot of speed stuff while suppressed and when they did, it was explicitly stated that they would be much faster if they decided to use their full power, but because of Vegeta and the Frieza Force with the Scouters, they remained suppressed for most of the time.
SomebodyData said:
Regardless, doesn't that just debunk your point? As Goku and Piccolo had half the power level of a supressed Gohan and could keep up with raditz (equal to the saibamen) but Gohan, without extrasensory ability, couldn't even see the Saibamen.
Click to expand...
Goku and Piccolo were being pretty much blitzed by Raditz, despite the fact they were actively fighting and amping their senses. Gohan was standing there idly and most likely didn't know how to enhance his vision with Ki Sensing, based off of what Piccolo stated to him.
SomebodyData said:
None of what you added debunked anything with my reply to why Goku blitzing Tien is absurd, especially Goku's speed and Roshi not being blinded.
Click to expand...
Prove Roshi wasn't blinded.
 
They would travel a lot faster. Their reactions and perception are only slightly restricted by it.

Raditz was faster but blitzing is a massive stretch. Yes on the Gohan point? Even though Gohan is comparable he needs esp to actually see the saibaman, much more to actively fight one if that ever happened. I don't think you guys understand that perspection speed and reaction or combat speed are very much linked- you need to perceive at that speed to actually move quickly in regards to the other speeds.

You serious on the Roshi point? How does a man not realize he's been blinded.
 
"When did he..." Would mean he didn't know when Goku took his glasses, he would know it was when Tien started talking if that was the case.
 
It went off-topic because somehow the thread devolved from validating Roshi's feat to validating every single inconsistent, heavily debated and rejected stuff from early Dragon Ball series. This isn't about Roshi alone anymore, it became about revising all of early dragon ball. It will require considerably more input from knowledgeable staff members at this point.
 
so it turned from simply moon to all of DB...there is a lot to see so can someone give. TLDR to know where we stand?
 
IDK how to even look at this thread anymore.

In any case, I still agree with the OP on the original topic of the discussion that only MAX Roshi and the god-tiers of Dragon Ball (King Piccolo, Piccolo Jr. and 23rd Budokai Goku) should scale to the moon-busting feat.

As for the other feats, I sadly can't help there.
 
I mean if we are talking about Roshi's feat alone I think that seems fine but the other suggestion of At least 7-B, possibly 5-C is also fine. I'm leaning more to outright 5-C as goku also didn't train much before the raditz arc no? So it would not make much sense he suddenly is 5-C after slacking off a lot in comparison to Piccolo.
 
I mean, that is one way to frame it AKM. But yeah, that's the general gist. In trying to support 5-C against a multiple of angles, I've had to realize that a huge amount of feats have been ignored (Although, this assuming malicious intent wasn't involved) to the point of ridiculous consistency.

Then to debunk those feats, it devolved into addressing the slightest possible counterpart. Like whether Goku can determine the range of the Power Pole's extension beforehand, or that DB characters apparently lack the comparable perspective speed to their combat/reaction speeds, something that is currently impossible by the wiki's standards. Though it hasn't gotten to the lengths of the '43 cities make up the world' fiasco, which was really absurd.
 
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