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Addressing Roshi's Feat
- Thread starter SomebodyData
- Start date
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What were the main arguments against this in previous threads? I'd be curious to see them pulled up.
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I just recall that the thread was too chaotic and that we couldn't figure out how to create proper scaling chains, so we considered it as an outlier in lack of better options. Then again, I constantly handle a ridiculous number of tasks, so I recurrently lose track or forget details.
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I asked Ant for permission to post these.
This is for those who want a timeframe and the original calc.
Here’s the only calc I found.
Hopefully this is the only time I have to post anything.
This is for those who want a timeframe and the original calc.
Here’s the only calc I found.
Hopefully this is the only time I have to post anything.
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The calc makes so many large mistakes (like not factoring in the enormously large FoV the moon would need to cover) it's not usable. There's also mo indication it was blasted to pieces rather than just utterly destroyed.
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I disagree with 5-C Roshi. It's a gross outlier.
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Oh, and to specify, this would be just "5-C via MAX Kamehameha", correct?
Not just 5-C in general?
Not just 5-C in general?
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Come now, you know if you allow 5-C to just Roshi with MAX Kamehameha, people will IMMEDIATELY try to scale everyone to it.
This is just "Hiding the outlier" tactic.
This is just "Hiding the outlier" tactic.
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Also in regards to OP stuff:
- Roshi's Moon level feat is absolutely an outlier. We are shown Roshi's full power in an earlier arc and it's only mountain level. Later on in every arc up until the Saiyan Saga we see the full power of stronger characters and it is always billions of times weaker than moon level.
- King Piccolo's "High 6-A statement" is pure bullshit, it doesn't exist. Piccolo was talking about "Destroying the world" by blowing up cities and wiping out humanity, this is clear if you show the full scene where Piccolo takes over the world and declares himself king. You are just taking a statement out of context to wank.
- Kami's creation feat has been addressed in this thread, it does not scale to physical power. It is meaningless overall.
- Is the Moon busting statement in the manga? No? Then it's meaningless, Daizenshuu is always secondary and Goku being 'moon-busting' in the classic manga without ever demonstrating such a feat is unproven, and also an outlier since the only moon level feat in classic is contradicted by every other feat.
- Goku trained for 5 years. Power levels increases in Dragon Ball are utterly arbitrary, they do not follow linear logical progression. If Goku does not depict much better feats after years of training, then his tier will not increase. If he demonstrates astronomically better feats are a few weeks of training, then his tier will increase. "Close in power" is meaningless.
- Power levels are meaningless. We do not care how close the official numbers are against each other, they are mostly provided by secondary sources and not the actual manga, and the increase is utterly arbitrary. What matters are the feats, not arbitrary power levels.
- The stuff about the dragon balls is utterly irrelevant and gish-gallop fallacy. It's just trying to make your argument larger than it actually is.
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"Scale everyone to it"
Dude, like only three characters would scale to this, and those characters are monstrously above everyone else.
- This was addressed in the OP, Roshi destroying the mountain as an accident isn't indicative of the full power of his Kamehameha. All feats that are lower than 5-C are either done by characters weaker than Roshi, or are done extremely causally. There are also numerous statements and feats done by characters on or above Roshi's level that have moon level statements.
- The context of that statement and that scene is King Piccolo informing the world that he will choose randomly and instantly destroy one sector of the planet by blowing it the **** up every year in honor of the day he became ruler. Not just cities, don't know where you get that from.
- Nothing in this thread says that Kami's creation feat doesn't scale to his physical power, and it logically would with how dragons operate in comparison to their creators in this series.
- End of DB Goku's Super Kamehameha is the strongest attack in the series up to that point, logically above Roshi's own. So it being said to be capable of shattering a moon from a secondary source only goes to reinforce the consistency and validity of 5-C Dragon Ball, not denouncing it.
- Goku didn't train much at all during the five-year timeskip, and this noted in the story itself, said Goku was still stronger than Piccolo, albeit barely, who does Roshi's 5-C feat casually, later in the arc.
- Power levels might be arbitrary, but they aren't irrelevant. They always depict which character is stronger than another and the closer the number the smaller the gap.
- I don't know what you mean by this so specification would be lovely.
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Warren said what I needed to so...yeah. What he said.
although it’s more like eight characters. Goku, the Piccolos, and End-of-Classic Tien, Yamcha, and Krillin. Oh, and Popo. Cyborg Tao, Yajirobe, and Chiaotzu don't scale.
although it’s more like eight characters. Goku, the Piccolos, and End-of-Classic Tien, Yamcha, and Krillin. Oh, and Popo. Cyborg Tao, Yajirobe, and Chiaotzu don't scale.
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King Piccolo is not weaker than Roshi, rather he is hyped as being far more powerful.
He was literally talking about cities tho, we see one of the places he was blowing up and it's not as big as you're insisting it is.
Considering how Shenron is created, yeah.
It's a literal wish-granting dragon it has nothing to do with physical power.
That's just confirmation bias. "Roshi's moon feat is stated to be moon level in the daizenshuu" isn't a supporting evidence, it's just the same feat repeated.
So what. Feats > Statements and scaling. If Goku's feats after the timeskip are that much better, that's what we'll go with.
Also, you call all this grunting and screaming casual? Piccolo is even panting after he does it, casual my ass.
Yes but the gap is arbitrary without feats, you can't backwards scale it.
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- No one said that Piccolo was weaker than Roshi. King Piccolo fits under the "on Roshi's level or above" part of that sentence.
- No, he is not, he is talking about the 43 sectors of the planet. Saying otherwise is your headcanon since this is directly said in the manga and anime, I am not insisting anything, the narrative is. You're just ignoring it.
- Wish-Granting or Reality Warping is viable for an AP rating if the wish-granting does a creation feat, and since the extent of Shenron's power depends on Kami's level of power. Scaling it to physical strength would be a logical conclusion.
- How does Goku's Super Kamemeha being stated to be able to shatter the moon just Roshi's moon busting feat being regulated - this doesn't make any sense.
- Ah no. Feats do no possess infinite authority. You need to use proper feats, statements, and scaling in tandem with one another to come to the best conclusion, otherwise, you get terrible biased results. According to pure destructive feats, DB Roshi is stronger than Vegito because Vegito doesn't blow up the moon or anything greater - I don't need to explain why such logic is nonsensical. There is no grunting or screaming in the manga he just throws out an attack, and the context for Piccolo's brow sweat and disarray is his horror over the other Saiyan's Great Ape forms after seeing how powerful Gohan was in his. Also, you know this feat is casual because Piccolo has a technique that is specifically his strongest and far more powerful than just a random ki blast, which he didn't need to use at all.
- You can't give an exact numerical comparison on early DB power levels because they are exponential and arbitrary, but the numbers of power levels can always be used to determine who is stronger than another at any point in the series because that notion of power level is always consistent - Bigger number = more power AND Smaller the distance between numbers = smaller the gap in power.
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43 sectors =/= the entire landmass. We see him destroy "1 sector" and it's not as big as you say. Literally ignoring the panel.
Considering how Shenron is even made (Paper Machie doll + magic), it's very clearly not something that scales to AP. Magic in DB very often has nothing to do with AP. Do you think Dende is moon level in Attack Potency?
Strawman the size of a plantation field.
My point is that scaling only takes you so far. The stronger version of Piccolo has the feat so scaling it to the weaker cause "Close power level" makes no sense.
You are incorrect. After the moon is blown up Piccolo is shown exhausted and panting.
You just confirmed my point. You can't give a numerical comparison so you can't backwards power level scale.
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I do agree that making Max level Kamehamaha exclusive to Roshi is indeed hiding an outlier which is sort of what it sounded like Qawsed said; either make it his main tier and in turn scale everyone superior to him above it or pass it as in outlier. I'll get started on righting up a lengthy summary as soon as I finish up some other simple tasks.
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- Except that Piccolo says he will destroy the entire region instantly, not just a city. And no, we never see him destroy a sector, he choose Sector 29 and he gets intercepted at the location by Tien and Goku before he gets to do anything and then he blows up the city during the fight with Goku while laughing it off the entire time. That isn't him blowing up the entire sector. You need to reread the arc.
- Shenron's creation is irrelevant. Shenron's magical powers are connected to Kami's strength. That's how dragons work - if Shenron can recreate the moon, then Kami would need the power to recreate the moon, otherwise, it would "be beyond my power" as Shenron likes to say.
- You need to explain yourself better because, in the context of what you wrote, that was not a strawman. And characters having "close power levels" isn't the basis of any argument here, only a supplementary point if and when used.
- Your link doesn't show work, but it doesn't matter since I linked the two scans anyway. Again, Piccolo's comment about the Great Ape form explains his disheveled appearance, as well as the fact that he didn't need to use the Special Beam Cannon, his ultimate attack, to do the feat. If you don't need to use your strongest attack to destroy something, then it is casual because you have access to abilities that can bring forth greater levels of destruction.
- No power level being used here is trying to make a numeric rating of Early Dragon Ball power levels. The only mentioning of power levels in the OP is comparing the Super Kamehameha to BoZ Goku's base power level. No one is saying that there a specific numeric difference between those two values, just that the bigger value means it is more powerful than the smaller one - because that is the nature of power levels, which has always been consistent.
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I feel like you are missing some words here, as I am confused by what you mean that it would be 'hiding an outlier'?
Ki blasts are > than a Dragon Ball character's physical strength, so having an attack be a separate tier isn't radical or out of the blue for this kind of series.
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The piccolo instant image link is dead.
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- Thread starter
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Works for me
EDIT: Though I think that Warren got the point across anyways
EDIT: Though I think that Warren got the point across anyways
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Okay, so I might as well start with the elephant in to room. Which is Roshi himself. Admittedly, back in the 21st budokai, he was just barely strong enough to best 21st budokai Goku. Who is currently At least 9-B, going from 9-B to 5-C via a transformation is a big jump to be fair. Even going from Tier 9 to Tier 7 can be seen as a jump, but at least no where near as crazy. But after that, let's recap to the scenes after that.
But after that, Goku then single handedly takes on the entire Red Ribbon Army after training on Korin's tower. And that is when Roshi admits that Goku has proven himself stronger than him. Even before the training for three years. And Goku has gotten stronger and Roshi also likely trained to grow stronger in hopes he could still beat him. But he himself doubts he can given his growth. Roshi getting stronger would inherently mean his Max Power Kamahameha would also have to be stronger than before. But furthermore, Tien steps in and Roshi says he's going to replace him. He stepped down from the tournament and said goodbye to Jackie Chun when he realized he wasn't strong enough to win against Tien, but saw potential to win against Goku in the tournament to keep him motivated. Roshi also does say the Tri Beam is comparable to the Kamahamaha; with a side effect that it shortens the life with each use. It was calculated at 8-A, contradicts being equal to Kamahamaha if that low. But regardless, Tien is definately stronger than the Max Power form of Master Roshi, so Tien should be upgraded to Roshi's tier regardless of the Tier 7 or Tier 5. But going to continue on. Tier 7 isn't too big of a gap from 8-A, but Tier 5 very much is. But if even a character stronger than Roshi had to put all his might into a low end feat, there is a contradiction.
Next is King Piccolo. Ah yes, he is definately above Max Power Kamahamaha even in his old state. Roshi even states that his attack would have 0 effect on King Piccolo, hense why he uses the Mafuba and dies. But also, the Demon Wave is also King Piccolo's strongest attack. And he uses it twice; this was originally an attack with the same weakness as the Tri Beam; it drains his lifeforce. Meaning Old Piccolo would likely die the moment he used an attack. But now he's Immortal, he no longer has that problem. But even so, he had to put all his energy into one attack just to do the 97 Megaton feat, and he loses half his strength and only enough to perform another 7-B feat afterwards.
I'll also pause to do the Mr Popo thing real quick. If we're going to accept Moon level Roshi, we would also have to do the same thing for their speed ratings. The Moon level AP feat also doubles as a Relativistic Attack Speed feat. Which Popo used lightning to attack Goku which he also struggles with to dodge it. If he was Relativistic, he should have been able to dodge that easily, so even if we want to use AoE fallacy or Ki Control to excuse the low end destruction feats, the speed would make them outliers.
Now back to 23rd Budokai. This is where the 6-B and Massively Hypersonic+ speed feats come from. And once again, Piccolo Jr's strongest attack at the time. If the Moon level feat were to happen now, then there would have been less contradictions. But we don't go off of what ifs here. We go by real deals. That was still Juniors strongest attack, which was an increamence to the 7-B+, 8-A, and High 7-C feats respectively. With only one contradiction. Basically, the chain looks like this 6-B > 7-B > 8-A > 5-C = High 7-C. Using the High 7-C feat would only overlap one, but 5-C overlaps the whole thing. And it would have been uncontroversial with Ki Control, but then the speed scaling still makes it an outlier. It's legit an anti-feat for combat speed that Goku couldn't dodge lightning, Ki control can be a legit argument for lack of destruction, but not for failing to react to something that's just lightning.
Speaking of Ki Control, it should be noted that it was mostly Kami who taught Goku how to control his Ki to great levels to avoid causing much destruction with his strongest attacks. They can easily focus their Ki into a strong attack, but for super strong attacks, they often have limits to where the Ki is launched prior to much later entries. Like Vegeta using Final Flash on Cell and he had to tilt it up and miss half of Cell because he would have destroyed the planet in that angle. Or Goku needing to use IT to avoid destroying the planet. They don't have Godly Ki levels of control where Goku and Vegeta can now uses the same attacks towards the ocean with enough force to blow away the universe but still manage to avoid busting the planet. Although, Ki Control is prominent in strong punches and more basic Ki blasts, but strongest attacks have characters with very limited control over their Ki. Toriyama was the one who said Ki Control is the reason Android 17 and 18 don't destroy planets every time they punch, but it wasn't until post Frieza saga when he introduced the concept fully. Before then, Ki manipulation was often limited.
As for Kami's Moon level feat, it's far too speculative. Unlike pretty much every JRPG verse where Magic is treated as those verses' version of Ki; Dragon Ball makes magic something entirely different. Magic is usually just stuff for non combat purposes such as mind control, reversing effects, wish granting, ect. It's not a secondary type of Ki to be confused with Godly Ki. Piccolo has magic in addition to Ki, albiet limited. Where he can create clothes out of nothing. Also, Shenron is created to perform things that Dragon type Namekians otherwise cannot do naturally. Dende, Guru, and that other Namekian elder are not fighters and are much weaker than fodder Frieza soldiers, but they still created Porunga who has 5-B levels of restoration feats. Dragon Ball seperates reality warpings feats with Ki blasts or punches where as punches are the same source as Ki Blasts.
That's all I got for now. I was going to support the AP upgrades if we solely used AP as the argument and Ki control as well as it just being the Namekians and those who scale, but the speed examples and Tien Shinhan at 22nd Budokai are what really hammer it pointing to an outlier. I'm technically open-minded and can change my mind, but I'm going to have to side with Matt and AKM Sama on this now for now. Using the Moon level feat as just an AP feat and not a speed feat would also be another example of hiding an outlier.
But after that, Goku then single handedly takes on the entire Red Ribbon Army after training on Korin's tower. And that is when Roshi admits that Goku has proven himself stronger than him. Even before the training for three years. And Goku has gotten stronger and Roshi also likely trained to grow stronger in hopes he could still beat him. But he himself doubts he can given his growth. Roshi getting stronger would inherently mean his Max Power Kamahameha would also have to be stronger than before. But furthermore, Tien steps in and Roshi says he's going to replace him. He stepped down from the tournament and said goodbye to Jackie Chun when he realized he wasn't strong enough to win against Tien, but saw potential to win against Goku in the tournament to keep him motivated. Roshi also does say the Tri Beam is comparable to the Kamahamaha; with a side effect that it shortens the life with each use. It was calculated at 8-A, contradicts being equal to Kamahamaha if that low. But regardless, Tien is definately stronger than the Max Power form of Master Roshi, so Tien should be upgraded to Roshi's tier regardless of the Tier 7 or Tier 5. But going to continue on. Tier 7 isn't too big of a gap from 8-A, but Tier 5 very much is. But if even a character stronger than Roshi had to put all his might into a low end feat, there is a contradiction.
Next is King Piccolo. Ah yes, he is definately above Max Power Kamahamaha even in his old state. Roshi even states that his attack would have 0 effect on King Piccolo, hense why he uses the Mafuba and dies. But also, the Demon Wave is also King Piccolo's strongest attack. And he uses it twice; this was originally an attack with the same weakness as the Tri Beam; it drains his lifeforce. Meaning Old Piccolo would likely die the moment he used an attack. But now he's Immortal, he no longer has that problem. But even so, he had to put all his energy into one attack just to do the 97 Megaton feat, and he loses half his strength and only enough to perform another 7-B feat afterwards.
I'll also pause to do the Mr Popo thing real quick. If we're going to accept Moon level Roshi, we would also have to do the same thing for their speed ratings. The Moon level AP feat also doubles as a Relativistic Attack Speed feat. Which Popo used lightning to attack Goku which he also struggles with to dodge it. If he was Relativistic, he should have been able to dodge that easily, so even if we want to use AoE fallacy or Ki Control to excuse the low end destruction feats, the speed would make them outliers.
Now back to 23rd Budokai. This is where the 6-B and Massively Hypersonic+ speed feats come from. And once again, Piccolo Jr's strongest attack at the time. If the Moon level feat were to happen now, then there would have been less contradictions. But we don't go off of what ifs here. We go by real deals. That was still Juniors strongest attack, which was an increamence to the 7-B+, 8-A, and High 7-C feats respectively. With only one contradiction. Basically, the chain looks like this 6-B > 7-B > 8-A > 5-C = High 7-C. Using the High 7-C feat would only overlap one, but 5-C overlaps the whole thing. And it would have been uncontroversial with Ki Control, but then the speed scaling still makes it an outlier. It's legit an anti-feat for combat speed that Goku couldn't dodge lightning, Ki control can be a legit argument for lack of destruction, but not for failing to react to something that's just lightning.
Speaking of Ki Control, it should be noted that it was mostly Kami who taught Goku how to control his Ki to great levels to avoid causing much destruction with his strongest attacks. They can easily focus their Ki into a strong attack, but for super strong attacks, they often have limits to where the Ki is launched prior to much later entries. Like Vegeta using Final Flash on Cell and he had to tilt it up and miss half of Cell because he would have destroyed the planet in that angle. Or Goku needing to use IT to avoid destroying the planet. They don't have Godly Ki levels of control where Goku and Vegeta can now uses the same attacks towards the ocean with enough force to blow away the universe but still manage to avoid busting the planet. Although, Ki Control is prominent in strong punches and more basic Ki blasts, but strongest attacks have characters with very limited control over their Ki. Toriyama was the one who said Ki Control is the reason Android 17 and 18 don't destroy planets every time they punch, but it wasn't until post Frieza saga when he introduced the concept fully. Before then, Ki manipulation was often limited.
As for Kami's Moon level feat, it's far too speculative. Unlike pretty much every JRPG verse where Magic is treated as those verses' version of Ki; Dragon Ball makes magic something entirely different. Magic is usually just stuff for non combat purposes such as mind control, reversing effects, wish granting, ect. It's not a secondary type of Ki to be confused with Godly Ki. Piccolo has magic in addition to Ki, albiet limited. Where he can create clothes out of nothing. Also, Shenron is created to perform things that Dragon type Namekians otherwise cannot do naturally. Dende, Guru, and that other Namekian elder are not fighters and are much weaker than fodder Frieza soldiers, but they still created Porunga who has 5-B levels of restoration feats. Dragon Ball seperates reality warpings feats with Ki blasts or punches where as punches are the same source as Ki Blasts.
That's all I got for now. I was going to support the AP upgrades if we solely used AP as the argument and Ki control as well as it just being the Namekians and those who scale, but the speed examples and Tien Shinhan at 22nd Budokai are what really hammer it pointing to an outlier. I'm technically open-minded and can change my mind, but I'm going to have to side with Matt and AKM Sama on this now for now. Using the Moon level feat as just an AP feat and not a speed feat would also be another example of hiding an outlier.
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I disagreed last time with 5-C Roshi but I've changed my mind.
mostly because AOE doesn't translate to AP and there have been enough instances within the franchise to argue that Ki control really is a thing. it be very hypocritical of me to dismiss terrible arguments like "gohan and Cell are not solar system level because the crater they made is barely town level" while supporting the idea that an on-screen feat ls an outlier because attacks later on in the series have a smaller AOE.
while I still think Moon level early dragonball feels jarring with my own Interpretation of that part of the series, it's not about my own POV it's about being as Objective as possible with the references we have.
So I agree with 5-C Roshi.
mostly because AOE doesn't translate to AP and there have been enough instances within the franchise to argue that Ki control really is a thing. it be very hypocritical of me to dismiss terrible arguments like "gohan and Cell are not solar system level because the crater they made is barely town level" while supporting the idea that an on-screen feat ls an outlier because attacks later on in the series have a smaller AOE.
while I still think Moon level early dragonball feels jarring with my own Interpretation of that part of the series, it's not about my own POV it's about being as Objective as possible with the references we have.
So I agree with 5-C Roshi.
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I feel like there have also been plenty of contradictory scenes to the notion of Ki control as well though; such as Piccolo being afraid that Vegeta would blow up Namek (forcing Frieza to kick his attack into space), Krillin and Trunks being worried about Vegeta's blowing the planet (which was averted when he narrowed his beam width in order to not hit the planet) and everybody being worried about Goku launching a Kamehameha at the Earth (which he avoided by teleporting into Cell's face and hitting him with it instead).
Ki control is a bit of a controversial topic so I'm not sure if it needs to be addressed here, but there have been a fair number of scenes where it is suggested that characters can't just completely stop their blasts from nuking the planet if they're strong enough.
Ki control is a bit of a controversial topic so I'm not sure if it needs to be addressed here, but there have been a fair number of scenes where it is suggested that characters can't just completely stop their blasts from nuking the planet if they're strong enough.
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Here.
I'll just play devil's advocate and leave the decision making to others. However, if this King Piccolo feat and Kami's creation feats are considered legit, I can see how Roshi's feat won't be an outlier in terms of AP anymore. Although, I am interested to see arguments about the speed of characters from that point on.
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Uh?, Clothes Beam is a Magical ability, is not Ki based. Namekians from the Dragon Clan are known to do sorcery/Magic.
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Except Piccolo can do it and he isn't a Dragon clan, nor can he do magic.
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The translation for the technique is literally "Magic Materialization" from what I can tell.
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Piccolo does have Magic, Namekians know Magic.
As Damage said, the technique is called "Magic materialization".
Ki and Magic are different, even the Daizenshu states It.
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This is from the Daizenshu:
The line in question is from Daizenshuu 4's attack classification section, under sorcery:
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Speed doesn’t change
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If the feat is decided to not be an outlier, I am sure it will make everybody who scales at least sub-relativistic.
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Yeah, excluding him and non-admins in general was a baffling decision since it was mostly Zamasu arguing for it in the first place. He also provided scans before so it shouldn’t be much of a problem.
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Nobody has ever dodged Beefcake Roshi’s beam attacks. I could see 23rd Goku and Piccolo’s beams scaling in speed tho.
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And nobody has ever survived his attacks either. They will still get durability if the feat is treated as legit. Same for speed. Raw stats in DB go hand in hand.
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I will respond in a few.
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