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Addressing Roshi's Feat
- Thread starter SomebodyData
- Start date
- Status
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To quote a friend of mine on the outlier argument...
“
I think "anti-feats" should generally be more along the lines of, like
"This character has a high-end feat, but there are multiple important narrative instances which consistently contradict that level of power"
and not
"This character got hurt by a rock once or twice"”
and
“Like, something that I think a lot of people don't realize is that the existence of lower feats alone doesn't contradict higher feats. I lift pencils far more often than I lift 50-pound weights, but I can still do the latter. If someone has 10 building level feats and 1 town level feat... I mean, being town level doesn't preclude you from performing building level feats.”
-Speedy
“
I think "anti-feats" should generally be more along the lines of, like
"This character has a high-end feat, but there are multiple important narrative instances which consistently contradict that level of power"
and not
"This character got hurt by a rock once or twice"”
and
“Like, something that I think a lot of people don't realize is that the existence of lower feats alone doesn't contradict higher feats. I lift pencils far more often than I lift 50-pound weights, but I can still do the latter. If someone has 10 building level feats and 1 town level feat... I mean, being town level doesn't preclude you from performing building level feats.”
-Speedy
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That's a trash scan for Piccolo. Why isn't anyone using the actual high-quality scans here.
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I agree with Cal. The word “outlier” is often used in the wrong way. We have plenty of verses that scale off of one feat with more 9-B feats that you can count (like Teen Titans).
Outliers should only be used under specific circumstances. For example, Character 1 destroys a continent. Later Character 1 gets hit by a 7-C nuke and almost dies. That’s when we could consider Character 1’s 6-A feat an outlier. In DB that’s far from the case.
To quote what I said in a discord server:
Zark is right. Tier 4 is an outlier as a whole. When Vegeta said his he went all out against android 18 he’d destroy the planet. Vegeta’s full power final flash would’ve destroyed the planet. Goku’s warp Kamehameha would’ve destroyed the planet at full strength. Android 16’s self destruct would’ve destroyed the earth and would’ve killed Cell. Semi Perfect Cell’s self destruct would’ve destroyed earth and it killed Goku.
Meanwhile Frieza’s high 5-A feat is the only feat before SPC that’s remotely close to tier 4. This makes it an outlier because it’s just one feat an it wasn’t even in the manga.
TLDR: We could use the same arguments against Roshi to downplay all tier 4s that aren’t Super Perfect Cell and above. As a matter of fact, you could downplay Buu to 5-A because he only destroyed several planets and the earth and was reduced to chunks of flesh. Just because a character shows lesser feats doesn’t make previous feats invalid.
As for speed. Feats > Statements. Also there’s no evidence that Piccolo or Goku got thousands of times faster.However the return stroke of lightning is almost light speed and by faster than lightning Popo could mean the return stroke but let’s not get into that.
Outliers should only be used under specific circumstances. For example, Character 1 destroys a continent. Later Character 1 gets hit by a 7-C nuke and almost dies. That’s when we could consider Character 1’s 6-A feat an outlier. In DB that’s far from the case.
To quote what I said in a discord server:
Zark is right. Tier 4 is an outlier as a whole. When Vegeta said his he went all out against android 18 he’d destroy the planet. Vegeta’s full power final flash would’ve destroyed the planet. Goku’s warp Kamehameha would’ve destroyed the planet at full strength. Android 16’s self destruct would’ve destroyed the earth and would’ve killed Cell. Semi Perfect Cell’s self destruct would’ve destroyed earth and it killed Goku.
Meanwhile Frieza’s high 5-A feat is the only feat before SPC that’s remotely close to tier 4. This makes it an outlier because it’s just one feat an it wasn’t even in the manga.
TLDR: We could use the same arguments against Roshi to downplay all tier 4s that aren’t Super Perfect Cell and above. As a matter of fact, you could downplay Buu to 5-A because he only destroyed several planets and the earth and was reduced to chunks of flesh. Just because a character shows lesser feats doesn’t make previous feats invalid.
As for speed. Feats > Statements. Also there’s no evidence that Piccolo or Goku got thousands of times faster.
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I'm in the same boat as AKM Sama; where at this point I don't particularly care about the outcome. I'm only here to try to give both sides a chance. But most already support one side which is why I'll mostly focus on supporting the opposing side in my work.
Also, saying no one dodged Roshi's Max Power Kamahamaha wave to not scale speed isn't the best argument. Considering King Piccolo is stronger than Roshi, it would be a double standard to not consider his Ki blasts faster than Roshi's alleged Moon level Kamahamaha, and yet Goku still dodged those. Tien's Tri Beam should also be considerably comparable if not superior to MPK both in terms of AP and speed, which Goku dodged that too. So if where's going to scale it to the durability of King Piccolo, we might as well also scale it to the reaction speed of Goku and Tien.
Also, the scan about Piccolo destroying regions. Nothing implies he one-shots those regions. The scan sounds about as reliable as making this guy and this guy Planet level via a "Destroy the entire world" statement. Or it also sounds in like with Kid Buu's Universal statement. It could be interpreted as him reeking havoc and destroying those landmasses over time, not with a single blast. So I wouldn't use that as a back up feat. Someone linked me something about KP being disappointed with his own power when all he did was destroy a city. Also, the Kaizenshuu isn't the most reliable source because the same thing actually downplays Piccolo to the power of a small nuclear bomb. Also, I think we should let it sink in that King Piccolo will take 43 years to destroy the entire world.
We don't use the Return strike of lightning for lightning speeds; we use the lightning bolt speeds. Which are far less impressive and follow the ratings in DT's blog. Also, I'd rather we try to avoid trying to downplay the later chapters. Those have a lot of planetary stuff for sure with 17, 18 and especially 16 not wanting to destroy the planet. Nor does Vegeta; which this is also before his Final Flash usage. Frieza's planetary stuff are also extremely casual in which even his first form can perform his Yottaton feat regularly; which his forms are much stronger. And yes, we do use an awkward middling for everyone between Frieza's 1st form and Super Perfect Cell, but it was the least bad practice. Also, Cell's statement is like super specific and everything both primary and secondary canon source in existence state his Solar Kamahamaha can bust the Solar System in a single blast. Avoid 3DS game example, otherwise he'd be Sephiroth tier roughly. But I still 100% stand on AssaltWaffle's points regarding that topic. Also, even without Cell's statement, Kid Buu has other back up sources to be Tier 4. If he's powerful enough to destroy the entire universe, that would be he can destroy every celestial body in the universe one by one over time. Which would include Neutron stars; around 649 and something foe iirc is the most durable star in the universe.
Edited Side note: Piccolo can use magic, just very limited amounts of it. He's a Warrior type where as Kami is a Dragon clan; the former has stronger Ki and the other has better magic. Just a minor topic to get out of the way.
Also, saying no one dodged Roshi's Max Power Kamahamaha wave to not scale speed isn't the best argument. Considering King Piccolo is stronger than Roshi, it would be a double standard to not consider his Ki blasts faster than Roshi's alleged Moon level Kamahamaha, and yet Goku still dodged those. Tien's Tri Beam should also be considerably comparable if not superior to MPK both in terms of AP and speed, which Goku dodged that too. So if where's going to scale it to the durability of King Piccolo, we might as well also scale it to the reaction speed of Goku and Tien.
Also, the scan about Piccolo destroying regions. Nothing implies he one-shots those regions. The scan sounds about as reliable as making this guy and this guy Planet level via a "Destroy the entire world" statement. Or it also sounds in like with Kid Buu's Universal statement. It could be interpreted as him reeking havoc and destroying those landmasses over time, not with a single blast. So I wouldn't use that as a back up feat. Someone linked me something about KP being disappointed with his own power when all he did was destroy a city. Also, the Kaizenshuu isn't the most reliable source because the same thing actually downplays Piccolo to the power of a small nuclear bomb. Also, I think we should let it sink in that King Piccolo will take 43 years to destroy the entire world.
We don't use the Return strike of lightning for lightning speeds; we use the lightning bolt speeds. Which are far less impressive and follow the ratings in DT's blog. Also, I'd rather we try to avoid trying to downplay the later chapters. Those have a lot of planetary stuff for sure with 17, 18 and especially 16 not wanting to destroy the planet. Nor does Vegeta; which this is also before his Final Flash usage. Frieza's planetary stuff are also extremely casual in which even his first form can perform his Yottaton feat regularly; which his forms are much stronger. And yes, we do use an awkward middling for everyone between Frieza's 1st form and Super Perfect Cell, but it was the least bad practice. Also, Cell's statement is like super specific and everything both primary and secondary canon source in existence state his Solar Kamahamaha can bust the Solar System in a single blast. Avoid 3DS game example, otherwise he'd be Sephiroth tier roughly. But I still 100% stand on AssaltWaffle's points regarding that topic. Also, even without Cell's statement, Kid Buu has other back up sources to be Tier 4. If he's powerful enough to destroy the entire universe, that would be he can destroy every celestial body in the universe one by one over time. Which would include Neutron stars; around 649 and something foe iirc is the most durable star in the universe.
Edited Side note: Piccolo can use magic, just very limited amounts of it. He's a Warrior type where as Kami is a Dragon clan; the former has stronger Ki and the other has better magic. Just a minor topic to get out of the way.
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@DarkDragonMedeus King Piccolo said the attack will be done in a blink of an eye (It was even linked in the op alongside the feat), so no, he wouldn't attack a region over time. He will take 43 years because he wants to celebrate his tyranny every year.
That's why he brought up Cell, Roshi has several statements says he can bust the moon and the other feats were also casual.
That's why he brought up Cell, Roshi has several statements says he can bust the moon and the other feats were also casual.
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What people overlook about King Piccolo's statement is that it's believable because someone weaker than him destroyed the moon. Besides, the content is that he could destroy the world not that he would. He's literally destroying regions one year at a time because he thinks it's fun and wants to rule Earth.
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I suppose it's a fair point then; and and the Anime version is indeed non-canon. In that version, it's implied he invites numerous outlaws and terrorists to assist him with all of the world's weapons of mass destruction. Hence why he ordered to get rid of all police force and said murder and theft are now 100% legal because of him. But this is off topic.
I'm going to stay on the sidelines, and it seems most of the staff support Moon level Roshi now, but it's more so the speed stuff is what I'm more concerned about. Plus, upgrading AP without upgrading speed seems like a repeat of that time a certain Low 4-C AP feat was rejected but a stellar range feat half was accepted that Prom had issues with. SD knows what I'm talking about.
I'm going to stay on the sidelines, and it seems most of the staff support Moon level Roshi now, but it's more so the speed stuff is what I'm more concerned about. Plus, upgrading AP without upgrading speed seems like a repeat of that time a certain Low 4-C AP feat was rejected but a stellar range feat half was accepted that Prom had issues with. SD knows what I'm talking about.
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No, that happens in the manga as well but it's unrelated to his 43 regions statement, which he planned to do himself.
What's the issue with speed? Didn't we already throw out the moon calc a long time ago, so there isn't any definitive speed?
What's the issue with speed? Didn't we already throw out the moon calc a long time ago, so there isn't any definitive speed?
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Still 100% agree that Max Power Roshi should be fully 5-C, I don't know who scales to that since I know very little about Dragon Ball Scaling, but that feat should not be treated as an Outlier, so add me to the list of people who fully support 5-C Roshi
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The moon busting feat happens extremely fast, implying it would be in the Sub-Relativistic to Relativistic range. And there's Goku struggling to dodge lightning in Kami's lookout.
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He never struggles with any lightning in the manga. Popo only told him to move faster than lightning.
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Was given permission by DarkDragonMedus to participate in this.
For now I don’t have much to contribute other than disagreeing with a casual King Piccolo performing a “7-B” feat based on this.
The feat may have been casual for KP, but it’s not 7-B. All King Piccolo did, with his hand wave, was destroy several buildings from one of the provinences he said he’d destroy.
The “city” that he destroyed was still very much intact after that casual attack, so I wouldn’t be using this point to try and say 7-B for King Piccolo is casual to help debunk an outlier.
For now I don’t have much to contribute other than disagreeing with a casual King Piccolo performing a “7-B” feat based on this.
The feat may have been casual for KP, but it’s not 7-B. All King Piccolo did, with his hand wave, was destroy several buildings from one of the provinences he said he’d destroy.
The “city” that he destroyed was still very much intact after that casual attack, so I wouldn’t be using this point to try and say 7-B for King Piccolo is casual to help debunk an outlier.
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This post is irrelevant. You’d have to debunk the calculation itself instead of eyeballing it. Btw he’d still be casually 7-B because even his old self is above Roshi kek. @ProfessorKukui4Life
EDIT: Wait a sec. You mean to tell me you asked for a staff member’s permission to post that? Not only is it entirely irrelevant, but the argument is next to non existent and it has nothing to do with the moon. This is quite literally derailment man. Please don’t do that again.
EDIT: Wait a sec. You mean to tell me you asked for a staff member’s permission to post that? Not only is it entirely irrelevant, but the argument is next to non existent and it has nothing to do with the moon. This is quite literally derailment man. Please don’t do that again.
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First off, I didnt ask to participate "just" to post that, I said thats the one thing I wanted to point out for the moment. Read better next time.
Second of all, what calc? I dont see any calc from Somebody posted in the OP (unless it was posted somewhere in the replies?). I saw him link to KP destroying part of a provinence and wanted to point out that isnt 7-B.
And third, it being casual or not doesnt matter if it isnt 7-B. The basis for 7-B not being his limit is because he "casually performed another 7-B feat". And from what I saw, I dont agree.
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Also, re-reading Somebody's post, im noticing that some of these points being brought up were already discussed and addressed in an earlier thread we had with AKM, Kepekely and others long before the forum move even began. For instance, these points I bolded:
Shenron's weakness isnt that he can't perform the same wish twice, his weakness is that he can't revive the same dead person twice. This was pointed out already in the thread I linked. So the argument about Kami having to be the one to remake it because it would be impossible for Shenron's wishes to do that is wrong.
And as for the point about "Shenron can't do anything beyond Kami's power", the thread I linked also named a bunch of inconsistencies with that idea that would only make it a bad plot device.
"This doesn't include abilities, just general power"
Before this is brought up, the issue with this is that Shenron, whether recreating the moon or not, wouldn't scale to his AP either way you slice it since he's explicitly doing it with a wish. You know, reality warping abilities. Even if the idea of his AP not being beyond Kami's AP is legit, this shouldnt help to make Kami's 5-C argumentation more legit when Shenron being 5-C at all isnt and shouldnt be scalable.
The points Somebody's using to help justify Kami-s 5-C feat (which subsequently is being used to help justify 5-C overall with more feats)
Shenron's weakness isnt that he can't perform the same wish twice, his weakness is that he can't revive the same dead person twice. This was pointed out already in the thread I linked. So the argument about Kami having to be the one to remake it because it would be impossible for Shenron's wishes to do that is wrong.
And as for the point about "Shenron can't do anything beyond Kami's power", the thread I linked also named a bunch of inconsistencies with that idea that would only make it a bad plot device.
"This doesn't include abilities, just general power"
Before this is brought up, the issue with this is that Shenron, whether recreating the moon or not, wouldn't scale to his AP either way you slice it since he's explicitly doing it with a wish. You know, reality warping abilities. Even if the idea of his AP not being beyond Kami's AP is legit, this shouldnt help to make Kami's 5-C argumentation more legit when Shenron being 5-C at all isnt and shouldnt be scalable.
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Isnt this the feat King Piccolo performed when fighting Goku?
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- Thread starter
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@ProfessorKukui4Life the conclusion of that thread was that we would continue it after the forum movement, here we are.
The 7-B calc is for the feat that draining King Piccolo of all his energy. However, regarding the other feat, in the television King Piccolo says he completely destroyed that city. Its safe to say its more than 'a part of a providence' as you said, especially considering its the capital of the world.
The 7-B calc is for the feat that draining King Piccolo of all his energy. However, regarding the other feat, in the television King Piccolo says he completely destroyed that city. Its safe to say its more than 'a part of a providence' as you said, especially considering its the capital of the world.
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Yes and I dont see anything you posted that debunks what the earlier thread already established in the discussion.
>However, regarding the other feat, in the television King Piccolo says he completely destroyed that city.
So a large number of completely intact buildings here is completely now?
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Kukui was right about the calc I posted. It was from Goku vs King Piccolo. However I still have no idea why he even brought up this random casual feat not being 7-B. It literally has nothing to do with Roshi's 5-C feat so can we please stop derailing the thread?
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Because it does?
Somebody's argument includes that because this casual feat from King Piccolo is 7-B, King Piccolo being 7-B at all isnt his limit and cant be used as an argument to suggst 5-C is an outlier. His own words:
This part of the argument however falls apart when nothing presented suggested his casual hand wave feat is 7-B in the first place.
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Then why beat around the bush? Saying the casual feat isn't 7-B doesn't matter. What matters is that you mention what the real 7-B feat was since you saw something wrong. All you had to do was get to the point.
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In response to your comment of the op:
While I'm pretty sure they meant Shenron just can't do the same wish rather than can't revive the same person exclusively given the later has been fixed by just making sure its indirectly wishing for that. Even so, in that same thread it was pointed out Shenron can't be used for a year afterwards and we know that before Frieza came to Earth they used the dragon balls in the namek saga and bulma wanted to use the dragon balls to find Gero, meaning they were still functional.
As I mentioned in this op, the statement is in regards to Kami's power and Porunga doesn't have that limitation, making the inconsistencies non issues.
We treat RW as scaleable on this wiki though.
While I'm pretty sure they meant Shenron just can't do the same wish rather than can't revive the same person exclusively given the later has been fixed by just making sure its indirectly wishing for that. Even so, in that same thread it was pointed out Shenron can't be used for a year afterwards and we know that before Frieza came to Earth they used the dragon balls in the namek saga and bulma wanted to use the dragon balls to find Gero, meaning they were still functional.
As I mentioned in this op, the statement is in regards to Kami's power and Porunga doesn't have that limitation, making the inconsistencies non issues.
We treat RW as scaleable on this wiki though.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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Also the fact that King Piccolo obliterated Shenron who can recreate the Moon.
I know it's staff only, sorry, but I had to mention that.
I know it's staff only, sorry, but I had to mention that.
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The former is something thats never been stated or even implied to be the case though. All we know is that Shenron's weakness is his wishing can't be used to revive someone who already died before, anything beyond that for his wishes is just considered headcanon.
And in that same thread, it was also pointed out there was more than a year interval after Shenron was used in the namek saga. I'll quote AKM and DarkDragonMedus here:
Akm- "Where is it stated that the moon was recreated by the Mecha Friexa saga? And it still was more than a year apart from when Shenron was used to revive the Namekians."
DarkDragon- "Piccolo wasn't revived by Shenron, he was revived by Porunga. And he never died from Frieza's attack, only knocked out hence why Kami was still alive and told Mr Popo to gather the Dragon Balls. Shenron revived everyone killed by Frieza and his henchmen. And then Porunga was used two or three times with 1/3rd year intervals to do the rest of the things needed."
As both had pointed out, it was more than a year between Shenron being used in the namek saga and Frieza coming to earth.
Porunga had nothing to do with what I said in regards to this tho. With or without Porunga, theres still several inconsistencies with the whole "cant do anything beyond the creators power" idea and even if the AP ratio between the dragon and creator holds by this, Shenron's 5-C shouldnt be scaleable.
Not wish-granting though. Especially the kind thats non-combat applicable like Shenrons. Reality Warping in the sense of, say, warping universes or something on a quantifiable scale can warrant a tier for it. Wish-Granting something into creation is completely different from the former, and reality warping in and of itself is a vast hax ability that it can be used differently.
I don't recall us ever tiering someone with wish granting abilities anyway, unless you can give examples of this.
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Like I said, they manage to circumvent the rule by making sure the wish is different with every resurrection.
Yes, and now add Bulma wanting to use the dragon that immediately after and the timeframe falls apart.
Mentioned Porunga in case you bring it up in the future.
Examples? Like Porunga or Shenron currently?...
Yes, and now add Bulma wanting to use the dragon that immediately after and the timeframe falls apart.
Mentioned Porunga in case you bring it up in the future.
Examples? Like Porunga or Shenron currently?...
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It should be noted that the same Daizenshuu that says Kid Goku is Moon level says King Piccolo is nuke level.
So maybe, like, don't be a hypocrite and pick and choose ala buffet from a source that can be used against you.
So maybe, like, don't be a hypocrite and pick and choose ala buffet from a source that can be used against you.
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Okay matt
I didn't mention the daizenchuu here and even specifically said its too inconsistent to be used in my op, so clearly you're not contributing or reading the thread.
For anyone else seeing his post, this is the kind of stuff that stonewalled last thread.
I didn't mention the daizenchuu here and even specifically said its too inconsistent to be used in my op, so clearly you're not contributing or reading the thread.
For anyone else seeing his post, this is the kind of stuff that stonewalled last thread.
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Behave people.
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Thats more so going off of technicalities with how the wish is requested compared to what the wish is. Not to mention, this would suggest that the weakness in and of itself is non-existent, which would further go against your claim that Shenron can't perform the same wish more than once in the end.
No it doesnt. Again, more than a year passed by between Shenron being used in the namek saga and Freeza coming to earth. By the time Bulma would want to use Shenron, he'd be available to summon.
Examples that would be different from them yes. From what im aware of, there isnt a single character here who's tiered with wish-granting based reality warping and has their wish-granting scaled to other characters like it's regular AP.
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No, if they revive people indirectly then if wouldn't fall under repeating the same wish is what I'm saying. Like for example, reviving the people who got killed by nappa by reviving the people who got killed by buu' planet bust.
A little less than 2 years passed, there is the first wish (Frieza Saga wish) and the second one (Bulma one I mentioned) there is no space for the moon.
Well I'm bringing them up to show how there is no rule against it. Since their profiles have been like that forever.
A little less than 2 years passed, there is the first wish (Frieza Saga wish) and the second one (Bulma one I mentioned) there is no space for the moon.
Well I'm bringing them up to show how there is no rule against it. Since their profiles have been like that forever.
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Do we have any canonical instance of this happening though? Shenron to my knowledge has never been proven to be able to do this technicality with his wishing abilities.
And if we're going to make arguments for that, the same argument could also be made for restoring the moon as well by wording the wish differently, so nothing would change either way its sliced.
Pretty sure it was 3, outright 2 at the very least.
Shenron was used to bring back all of the Namekians Frieza and his henchman killed on Namek (so by that point, the dragon balls year long time limit begins). Then, Porunga's last wish after Guru was revived was used to teleport all of the Namekians brought back to Earth so that they wouldnt be killed by Namek's destruction. At that point, the Namekian dragon balls were inert, even when Guru passed on his status as elder to Moori. Then they waited a whole year to bring back Krillin and Yamcha, and then another year to bring back Tien, Chaotzu and then move the Namekians to a new planet for them.
Thats at least 2 chances since Shenrons wish in the namek saga to use him. And no, you said Bulma wanted to use Shenron, not that she did.
Yes and theres no issue with them being tiered at those levels. The issue is scaling their tier to others when scaling off of wish granting is something we dont do, and to my knowledge, something we dont allow.
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Also quick side note:
Why is an anime scene being used as proof here for this in the first place? The manga holds priority.
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I mean the example did happen in the Buu Saga, that's why I brought it up. Same for Krillin in the Frieza Saga.
Just checked, December 24 772 was the wish in the Namek saga, August 774 for Bulma's suggestion. A little less than 2 years. Bulma wouldn't have suggested it if they couldnt do it, especially if they had just used the balls on the moon.
That seems arbitary for something that we don't have written down. Regardless, pretty sure Disney's Genie and Jafar scale to each other for an example.
The panel also appears in the manga, I just decided to get the anime ver. since it looks clearer.
Just checked, December 24 772 was the wish in the Namek saga, August 774 for Bulma's suggestion. A little less than 2 years. Bulma wouldn't have suggested it if they couldnt do it, especially if they had just used the balls on the moon.
That seems arbitary for something that we don't have written down. Regardless, pretty sure Disney's Genie and Jafar scale to each other for an example.
The panel also appears in the manga, I just decided to get the anime ver. since it looks clearer.
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Both of which were done by Porunga, not Shenron unless im missing something.
Actually im going to ask, where was it ever shown in the manga that Bulma even suggested to use the dragon balls? You said she wanted to use them to try and find Gero, but...im re-reading the manga now and I don't see that. So lets get this out of the way first.
Bad example considering im pretty sure Jafar gets Genie's powers and the wish-granting can be tiered for affecting the universe IIRC.
Okay fair enough on this.
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Just to lay out arguments in the open, I don't particularly have a problem with King Piccolo saying that he can wipe out 1/43rd of land on Earth in an instant. That is a believable claim, but I can see arguments that he might just be hyping himself up like he did while calling himself omnipotent/limitless. There is not much reason to assume his claim to be true other than counting Roshi's moon busting feat as valid. I can also see why some people would be iffy to treat Kami's recreation of Moon as anything to do with his ki/AP given that his creation seems to be a magical ability similar to the "clothes beam". Although, I am not against him being Moon level via creation.
Just to put into perspective, it will bump everyone who is 8-A or above to 5-C (Multi-City Block level to Moon level). It will also bump everyone from Hypersonic+ or At least Hypersonic+ to Sub-Relativistic speed at least, even if we assume it took 30 seconds for Roshi's kamehameha to hit the Moon. Which is an issue because Popo specifically trains Goku to be "faster than lightning" (Mach 1294) and later it is consistent with how Goku displays a faster feat in the 23rd Budokai (Mach 1785).
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There is this issue as well.
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