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Addressing Roshi's Feat

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ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Actually im going to ask, where was it ever shown in the manga that Bulma even suggested to use the dragon balls? You said she wanted to use them to try and find Gero, but...im re-reading the manga now and I don't see that. So lets get this out of the way first.
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I still want to know about this point. When did Bulma want to use the dragon balls in the Android arc?

Because she didn’t suggest to use them to find Dr. Gero.
 
6.jpg
 
@Damage3245

Here is a better link with better translations.

Anyway, rereading that part, I have huge issues with this as a whole now.

Yes, Bulma did suggest to use the dragon balls against the androids. However, a point that was ether forgotten or left out is that the androids were not originally going to come until 3 years after Trunks warned them about them to begin with.

What evidence is there that Bulma had intended to use the dragon balls right away after they were warned? Because that seems to be what the argument relies on.

They literally have 3 years to do this, and by this point, the Z-fighters collecting the dragon balls is laughably an easy task already.
 
00potato said:
What does this android saga discussion have to do with 5-C roshi?
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It’s relevant because Somebody is using this point to say Shenron couldn’t have brought back the moon since if Bulma wanted to use the dragon balls right away, that would be impossible.

I’m pointing out that it’s very wrong.
 
There is 0 evidence of Shenron not being able to make the same wish twice. As I said before, that’s headcanon and was already said before to be headcanon in earlier threads.

His weakness is that he can’t revive the same person more than once. So it being an argument of him not being able to recreate the moon, based off of this, is wrong.
 
Zamasu_Chan said:
What? Where is it said that his only weakness is not being able to revive the same people twice? Scans please. I find it odd how arbitrary it is that Shenron can do other wishes multiple times, but not revive dead people. Also when has he ever made the same wish twice?
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Uh, Goku not being able to be revived by Shenron? Dende stating this as well? This should be more common knowledge that he can’t revive the same person more than once.

And no, thats not how this works. Your burden of proof is proving he can’t make the same wish twice, not asking when he’s made the same wish twice.

And narratively that would make absolutely no sense either. For as long as the dragon balls have been around, them being able to make only one kind of wish one time would limit them severely. Not to mention the Z-fighters wouldn’t want to use them so much to bring people back to life.
 
Also here is a scan in this chapter that specified the weakness

Goku immediately said to King Kai that he knows Shenron can’t bring him back to life again immediately after Roshi and Bulma brought Goku back to life in the saiyan saga.

And also side note, it’s a plot point that goku awakened super saiyan because he got angry over Frieza killing Krillin, who already died prior by Tambourine.

EDIT: More stuff

In this chapter, Kami offered to use Shenron to bring back everyone on King Kais planet, but specified that Chaotzu can’t come back for he already died twice already.

 
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Also, regarding the Bulma thing, it makes no sense to assume she wanted to wait 3 years. It takes more of an assumption that she wanted to wait 3 years seeing as she blatantly stated that she wanted to "save 3 years worth of hard work", i.e getting rid of the issue before the 3 years were up. There is no reason to assume that she wanted to wait.
 
Saving three years of hard work and wanting to gather the balls right away are 2 different things.

From Bulmas point of view, she has at her disposal:

A group of ultra powered superhumans (which makes scouring the earth for the balls much easier than finding them solo), who can all move at FTL+ speeds to get to all of them hilariously quickly, and Goku who just prior displayed Instant Transmission.

And on top of that, the dragon radar she already possesses.

The amount of work that would be needed to find the Balls and summon Shenron would be so minuscule that it isn’t even funny.

I can find Bulma not wanting to wait 3 years to do that reasonable, but that doesn’t mean she’d aim to do it immediately. They have 3 years time to do what she suggested, literally any time within that timeframe wouldve worked.
 
Zamasu_Chan said:
@ProfessorKukui4Life That's a reverse burden of proof. You need evidence that it only applies to reviving people. Not only would that be arbitrary but hilariously convenient.
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No it isnt. The positive claim here is you suggesting a weakness that is never once implied anywhere in the series. Like, at all. Meanwhile, the evidence I already posted consistently makes it clear that’s Shenrons weakness is him not reviving someone more than once.

Not to mention, the fact that Shenron has been canonically used to revive people at least 3 times in the series already proves he can do the same type of wish as much as he wants anyway.
 
> Not to mention, the fact that Shenron has been canonically used to revive people at least 3 times in the series already proves he can do the same type of wish as much as he wants anyway.

This literally contradicts your entire premise. We've been chasing this topic long enough and I'm sick of the derailment. Kami or Shenron remaking the moon would scale to Kami regardless. We literally scale creation feats to AP and Dura for all characters I've come across. It's crazy how many loops and hoops the opposing side has to throw at us because they deny Roshi obliterated the moon.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Saving three years of hard work and wanting to gather the balls right away are 2 different things.
Click to expand...
Prove she wanted to wait. It's the most reasonable assumption that she wanted to get the Dragon Balls to get rid of the threat. Also, wanting to save 3 years worth of hard work more than likely means that she wants to prevent the need to train all those 3 years. Prove she wanted to wait as Occam's Razor dictates that she would have wanted to get rid of the threat immediately to no longer worry about it.
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
A group of ultra powered superhumans (which makes scouring the earth for the balls much easier than finding them solo), who can all move at FTL+ speeds to get to all of them hilariously quickly, and Goku who just prior displayed Instant Transmission.
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Means nothing. If anything, that means she can instantly get the wish over and done with that much faster, supporting that she would want to get everything over and done with immediately.
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
And on top of that, the dragon radar she already possesses.
Click to expand...
This still doesn't support her wanting to wait 3 years as this can still easily support her wanting to get it over and done with immediately as she has the means to do so.
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
The amount of work that would be needed to find the Balls and summon Shenron would be so minuscule that it isn’t even funny.
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And thus, she equally has no reason to wait 3 years to do it and possibly risk something going wrong.
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
I can find Bulma not wanting to wait 3 years to do that reasonable, but that doesn’t mean she’d aim to do it immediately. They have 3 years time to do what she suggested, literally any time within that timeframe wouldve worked.
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I see no reason to why she wouldn't go for it immediately to negate 3 years worth of effort to defeat opponents whose exact power she has no guage of. Your reasoning all equally applies to if she wanted to make the wish immediately as she just as easily had the means to do so. Especially considering the context of the entire damn scene is that she wanted to save time. So the assumption that she wanted to wait is extremely flawed and requires far more mental gymnastics.
 
Dragonmasterxyz said:
Also, regarding the Bulma thing, it makes no sense to assume she wanted to wait 3 years. It takes more of an assumption that she wanted to wait 3 years seeing as she blatantly stated that she wanted to "save 3 years worth of hard work", i.e getting rid of the issue before the 3 years were up. There is no reason to assume that she wanted to wait.
Click to expand...
I agree with this. Perhaps we should stop arguing in circles about this particular issue?
 
GojiBoyForever said:
I'm sorry but got to say this. Bulma's whole point of doing this was to save time and you think they would keep wasting it?
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Save time =/= immediately dropping what they’re doing and leaving right away is what I’m saying.

Bulma could’ve literally done this a year later and reaches the same exact result. Saving time.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Save time =/= immediately dropping what they’re doing and leaving right away is what I’m saying.

Bulma could’ve literally done this a year later and reaches the same exact result. Saving time.
Click to expand...
Saving time still moreso support the assumption that she wanted to do so immediately than it is to assume she wanted to wait. We can argue "if, ands and don'ts" all we please, however the simple fact is that what you are proposing require much more of an assumption than her wanted to get the wish over and done with right then and there. In fact you evidence for her wanting to wait also supports her being willing to do so immediately.
 
Zamasu_Chan said:
> Not to mention, the fact that Shenron has been canonically used to revive people at least 3 times in the series already proves he can do the same type of wish as much as he wants anyway.

This literally contradicts your entire premise.
Click to expand...
...How?
Zamasu_Chan said:
We've been chasing this topic long enough and I'm sick of the derailment.
Click to expand...
Dont care, because it's not derailment. Its a direct counter argument to the whole "cant do the same wish twice" stuff, which is being used to strengthen the argumentation that Kami created the moon again instead of Shenron. It's wrong, and you don't have anything that says otherwise.
Zamasu_Chan said:
Kami or Shenron remaking the moon would scale to Kami regardless.
Click to expand...
It doesn't for the latter.
Zamasu_Chan said:
We literally scale creation feats to AP and Dura for all characters I've come across.
Click to expand...
Yeah, creation with energy that's relative to AP. Not wish-granting reality warping as I said before.
 
"Bad example considering im pretty sure Jafar gets Genie's powers and the wish-granting can be tiered for affecting the universe IIRC."

That is incredibly arbitrary, the tier of RW doesn't matter- shouldn't you first prove that's a rule we have? @Prof I don't see any examples of us not scaling RW to durability without an explicit reason.
 
SomebodyData said:
"Bad example considering im pretty sure Jafar gets Genie's powers and the wish-granting can be tiered for affecting the universe IIRC."

That is incredibly arbitrary, the tier of RW doesn't matter- shouldn't you first prove that's a rule we have? @Prof I don't see any examples of us not scaling RW to durability without an explicit reason.
Click to expand...
It isnt that its a rule, its that we dont do it because its not the same as your typical reality warping that's combat-based. Not to mention surviving reality warping is explicitly resistance, not durability.

And even then we certainly dont scale other characters to another characters reality warping feat, which is the thing that im saying we don't do.
 
I get what you're getting at, but we usually have a reason not to scale. Like how Kyubey doesn't scale to Madoka because it's based on her potential when he grants wishes or Haruhi cause she's physically human.

Looking at Jafar's page he scales not because he had Genie's power, but because he wished to be an all-powerful genie, hence scaling him above Genie. Though outside of that there is also: The Fury scaling to Mad Jim Jaspers (Marvel), Puella Magi Witches in general, and Homucifer to Ultimate Madoka.

EDIT: Though Zamas has a point, even if we ignore the KP scaling there is still Kami = Shenron.
 
Zamasu_Chan said:
The point isn't that it'll scale to Shenron's dura. The point is that Shenron being 5-C but not Kami points to Shenron being superior to Kami which is obviously not true.
Click to expand...
Or it points to Shenron's wish granting being 5-C and that his power of wish granting doesnt scale to anyone because its not AP. So even if Kami being above Shenron's strength is true, he wouldnt be 5-C through this because Shenron's 5-C wouldnt scale to anything.

SomebodyData said:
I get what you're getting at, but we usually have a reason not to scale. Like how Kyubey doesn't scale to Madoka because it's based on her potential when he grants wishes or Haruhi cause she's physically human.

Looking at Jafar's page he scales not because he had Genie's power, but because he wished to be an all-powerful genie, hence scaling him above Genie. Though outside of that there is also: The Fury scaling to Mad Jim Jaspers (Marvel), Puella Magi Witches in general, and Homucifer to Ultimate Madoka.

EDIT: Though Zamas has a point, even if we ignore the KP scaling there is still Kami = Shenron.
Click to expand...
The former series I dont know about, but for Jafar and Genie, isnt that context talking about how Jafar would just be a more powerful genie than Genie? From that angle, it would scale because Jafar's wishing powers as a genie would be > Genie's wish granting. Not that Jafar is physically above the power of Genie's wishing.

And for Zamasu's point, see above.
 
Also, just to confirm:
Dragonmasterxyz said:
Saving time still moreso support the assumption that she wanted to do so immediately than it is to assume she wanted to wait. We can argue "if, ands and don'ts" all we please, however the simple fact is that what you are proposing require much more of an assumption than her wanted to get the wish over and done with right then and there. In fact you evidence for her wanting to wait also supports her being willing to do so immediately.
Click to expand...
I'll be dropping this part of what I said (Dragon makes a point anyway) because I don't need it anymore. This chapter here would still help the overall point im trying to make here.

Between Shenron being used to revive the Namekians and Porunga being used to bring Krillin, Tien, Yamcha, and Chaotzu back + finding a new planet for the Namekians, thats a total of 260 days. A little less than 2 years. After the namekians leave, 1 year passed by after that before Frieza came to earth (which by then, the moon is already restored). So by the time Bulma suggested to use Shenron against the Andriods, over 2 years have passed by.

So that still debunks the point about Shenron recreating the moon in that timeframe being impossible. There would be time for him to do that and for the balls to be used again by Bulma's PoV.
 
"260 days. A little less than 2 years."

That's a little over half a year. That means less than 2 years have passed. You just debunked your new point after conceding the old one.

EDIT: Your scan of a year passing also doesn't note if it counts the next 130 days, so even a year and a half is pressing it.
 
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SomebodyData said:
I get what you're getting at, but we usually have a reason not to scale.
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That's not how burden of proof works though. We need a reason to scale. In this case, even if we assume Moon level Kami, that will be through Magic Creation. I don't think there is any evidence that it translates to ki-based AP as well. Also, I'd like to see arguments for the speed inconsistencies it causes.
 
SomebodyData said:
EDIT: Your scan of a year passing also doesn't note if it counts the next 130 days, so even a year and a half is pressing it.
Click to expand...
This goes into the assumption that years in DB work differently than our world, which if true, also means it doesnt take a year in our world for the Dragon Balls to become usuable again.

So if a year in verse = 130, then it would still fall under what im saying.
 
@ProfessorKukui4Life I'm probably misreading this- but are you arguing that 130 days is a year in Dragon Ball?

@AKM sama No, we need a reason not to scale. We already know magic and their general AP/ki are comparable among users like Buu, the Kais, Moro, etc; to argue Kami is the sole exception needs a reason.

What's the speed inconsistency, sorry I probably missed that argument.
 
No, I meant to say by the panel you brought, the 130 days would be included within the year (And even if it wasn't, it would still be less than 2 years), making the total less than a year and a half. My bad if you took it as me saying one year < 130 days.
 
SomebodyData said:
No, we need a reason not to scale. We already know magic and their general AP/ki are comparable among users like Buu, the Kais, Moro, etc; to argue Kami is the sole exception needs a reason.
Click to expand...
That's not how burden of proof works. Magic and ki are not comparable and Babidi and Moro are literally examples of that. Buu doesn't even use magic for AP.

This is where I posted about the speed: https://vsbattles.com/threads/addressing-roshis-feat.109030/page-2#post-3396634
 
SomebodyData said:
No, I meant to say by the panel you brought, the 130 days would be included within the year (And even if it wasn't, it would still be less than 2 years), making the total less than a year and a half. My bad if you took it as me saying one year < 130 days.
Click to expand...
Ahh alright then. Excuse me for the embarrassing brain fart I made then haha.

In that case, I can see where your coming from. Though wouldnt the panel suggest that its another seperate year since it said "all too quickly, another year passed by" ? If it was part of the 260 days with Porunga, I dont think it would've been said like that.
 
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