Across the Mario-Verse [2-A God Tier Upgrades & Cosmology]

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

I think there's two additional references about them being internally infinite besides this in dream team / smb2. But for now treat it as so

If you know where these are, I would like to see them as I don't recall them myself.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Oh, other than that. Subcons from Mario 2 has multiple "Parallel world" statements

Could you post those statements, please?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Could you post those statements, please?

I cannot find the specific instruction manuel statement but though Mephistus had something about that but was just talking about Subcon being a dream world.

But Subspace is described as a mirror dimension on the wiki.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

But Subspace is described as a mirror dimension on the wiki.

1. We don't use fan wikis. You should know better than this, as an administrator. Do better.
2. It says Subspace only mirrors a single screen. There is no further evidence, even from the unofficial wiki, that it is an entire parallel universe.

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

We don't use fan wikis. You should know better than this, as an administrator. Do better.

Then Sonic’s profile is in some serious doodoo if fanwikis isnt safe to use. Not that i beef with sonicwikki


if mariowiki isnt safe to use then you might as well nuke everything game mario profiles have in their PNA

Also you ignored how theres references to what the wiki uses. Official ones btw.

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Like, come on. How did you miss this?

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Then Sonic’s profile is in some serious doodoo if fanwikis isnt safe to use. Not that i beef with sonicwikki


if mariowiki isnt safe to use then you might as well nuke everything game mario profiles have in their PNA

Also you ignored how theres references to what the wiki uses. Official ones btw!

You mean the section that doesn't have anything sourcing it asides from an image, which also only mirrors a single screen?

I also dont quite get how Subspace is proving universal size any further.

 

[Agnaa]

We don't use wikis as evidence directly, but we can look at their claims and then seek their evidence/references for them.

If a wiki says a character is 170cm tall we can't use that, but if they give that a reference to a guidebook statement of that, the wiki can be a convenient way to find that information.

 

[Starsprite53]

Here's the updated translation (be sure to open the link, embed probably isn't updated):


Here's his updated thoughts on the matter:

I have problems with this but will reply after i go back home

 

[AStrangeverse]

lord have mercy

 

[Mephistus]

I cannot find the specific instruction manuel statement but though Mephistus had something about that but was just talking about Subcon being a dream world.

But Subspace is described as a mirror dimension on the wiki.

From the Super Mario All Stars Manual: "and magic potions open portals to dark mirror worlds"

 

[Armorchompy]

So what about scarescraper? You mentioned you're fine with it not too long ago.

It's fine unless people have counterpoints, I still think it's better as "2-B, likely 2-A" than just "2-A" tho

 

[Armorchompy]

I asked if I could be one, but never received the role.

I currently have 125 translations in my "to-proof-read" backlog, I've added this to the list, and will get to it eventually.

 

[Mephistus]

It's fine unless people have counterpoints, I still think it's better as "2-B, likely 2-A" than just "2-A" tho

Should we phrase it like the mode's canonicity is slightly questionable?

 

[Armorchompy]

Aye, something like that.

 

[Mephistus]

Alrighty

 

[Armorchompy]

It's not that I don't consider the ScareScraper itself canon, it's more that specifically the endless mode is kinda game mechanics-y, given that it's just a difficult chosen the same as Easy/Normal/Hard, and that its size seems to straight-up vary depending on which mode you pick. I mean, in those other difficulties, beating the ScareScraper means you get to the top of it, having gone through all its (finite) floors. So, it being endless may just be a game mechanics thing, since Luigi is capable of reaching the end of it after just going through a couple dozen floors, which would be impossible if it were infinite.

 

[Mephistus]

He doesn't get to do endless till unlocking it by beating the finite ones, but I guess I see where you are coming from?

Either way, the scarescraper is already entirely optional from the main story, even as we get E. Gadd to do his personal torture research notes on the ghosties you can optionally choose to obtain from that endless mode.

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean I think generally the fact that the ScareScraper is finite most the time and that Endless mode is just kind of a fun bonus unlockable once you're done with it, might mean that the latter is just sort of something the devs added it to give the mode more replayability and it's not really something that's really "canon" in the "lore".

So I'd prefer "possibly 2-A" or "likely 2-A" at most

 

[Agnaa]

Wait a second. Is this upgrade seriously, solely based off of an "endless mode" in a video game being taken as literally meaning infinite floors physically exist?

If so, I oppose this entirely. That is not a standard we should set for all of gaming.

 

[Robo432343]

i thought when we use a statement like endless, it gets a 2-B rating, not 2-A

 

[Mephistus]

Wait a second. Is this upgrade seriously, solely based off of an "endless mode" in a video game being taken as literally meaning infinite floors physically exist?

If so, I oppose this entirely. That is not a standard we should set for all of gaming.

No, if you actually read the blog there's dialogue text and guides that quite literally state as such that the stated number of floors actually are contained. It's not the game mechanics on the player being able to merely continually go to the next level till their gaming device deteriorates. Hence why I didn't shoot for 2-B.

• The ""lore"" description of the physical structure is: "Climb an Endless ScareScraper with an ever increasing difficulty!" + Saying that "number" under Floors with being either "5" , "10" , "25", or "Endless".
• Official guide states: "the number of floors it will contain"

 

[Agnaa]

No, if you actually read the blog there's dialogue text and guides that quite literally state as such that the number of floors actually are contained.

That doesn't change the part that I think matters.

The part that I care about is the equivalence of "endless mode" to "a literally infinitely large space exists that this character can go through in this game mode". That is a ludicrously overly-literal reading of common gaming terminology that isn't seriously interpreted by anyone involved as actually meaning literal infinity. Computers can't handle you going through 10^10^10^10 floors in a video game, even with endless time. A company would not get sued for lying about it being endless if it ran was unable to go more than 3 trillion levels in (requiring 1,000,000 years of continuous play). This idea is fundamentally flawed.

Such modes shouldn't be used for such claims unless they're strongly established as literally involving infinite places in lore.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I share @Agnaa's perspective and also stand against the upgrade.

 

[Armorchompy]

Hmm, I personally wouldn't mind a possibly 2-A but his reasoning does make sense, dunno.

 

[KLOL506]

i thought when we use a statement like endless, it gets a 2-B rating, not 2-A

No? That's for "countless", not "endless". Just clarifying on how we treat the words here on this site.

 

[ImmortalDread]

i thought when we use a statement like endless, it gets a 2-B rating, not 2-A

It does not grant anything without any further context.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

i thought when we use a statement like endless, it gets a 2-B rating, not 2-A

That was actually ancient; we recently redefined Endless as meaning Infinite as English speakers use it as synonyms. Both words can be hyperbolic yes, but at their core, they mean the same thing. And the word "Countless/Innumerable" is a different word meaning that simply means cannot properly be counted.

But anyway, Mephistus is correct that Endless comes from a lore statement in the interview and is not a game mechanic. Though, if there's is skepticism about flowery language or if some bonus game mode has a questionable canon. I still support 2-A, but fine with limiting it to just "Likely/Possibly."

 

[Armorchompy]

It's not really a lore statement, it's talking about the

Armorchompy (don't know where the heck to put you at since you keep flip flopping)

I saw this and I just wanna say that I am very sorry

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Wait a second. Is this upgrade seriously, solely based off of an "endless mode" in a video game being taken as literally meaning infinite floors physically exist?

If so, I oppose this entirely. That is not a standard we should set for all of gaming.

If you read the blog then your answer is no

 

[JJSliderman]

Is there anything else though? Like specifically for an infinite amount of dreams.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

People bring up something about infinite paint and space from Color Splash

 

[y3p_owo]

The infinite space stuff comes from Super Paper Mario in the Outspace section

Edit: Here's the scan of it:

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

The infinite space stuff comes from Super Paper Mario in the Outspace section

Edit: Here's the scan of it:

Yeah I knew about this, it was the paint and dreams stuff that actually matters for it tho

 

[JJSliderman]

Paint can dream but that was specifically Junior’s paint, which is not really the same as the Paper Mario paint

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

I wanna bring up how in SPM an alien mentions how space is endless. But thats not all, the interesting part is that the infinite space is filled with dreams, which as established dreams are universes.

But if this isnt enough no worries, Tippi who is your guide of knowledge buddy, tells us that the alien often drives his thoughts about the endless space.

Tippi even continues how you can get to the infinite reaches of outer space. Hence giving validity to the alien's statement. So assuming theres an infinite space filled with universes. (dreams) So assuming that it could be infinite dreams wouldnt be off the table or farfetched. hence why possibly 2-A isnt a bad idea

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I've literally already explained that if you use ALL statements for Future Dream and not just the one, you get the fact it's dreams of the universe anyways (pretty consistently too). You can try and say it's a vague "outer space" with Uchuu but when we have the English text backing the universe interpretation I think we're fine there.

Also, unending dreams still means that a single person has to dream up an infinite sized one. You can't have a finite amount of things make up an infinite space. It just requires an infinite amount at that point.

Literally none of that Future Dream "debunk" matters in my personal opinion. There's no way you can interpret all of the statements together for dreams not to be uni sized.

Especially when multiple characters in the ending have their own dreams and we see Future Dream within them and it's not any bigger than the rest.

 

[Agnaa]

If you read the blog then your answer is no

I did, that was the only relevant thing there. The only thing that gestured at 2-A was the endless mode combined with the idea of enough ghosts in the endless mode dreaming, and each of those dreams being entire unique separate timelines.

I wanna bring up how in SPM an alien mentions how space is endless. But thats not all, the interesting part is that the infinite space is filled with dreams, which as established dreams are universes.
But if this isnt enough no worries, Tippi who is your guide of knowledge buddy, tells us that the alien often drives his thoughts about the endless space.
Tippi even continues how you can get to the infinite reaches of outer space. Hence giving validity to the alien's statement. So assuming theres an infinite space filled with universes. (dreams) So assuming that it could be infinite dreams wouldnt be off the table or farfetched. hence why possibly 2-A isnt a bad idea

An infinite space being filled with universes is High 3-A. For it to be 2-A they need to be separate timelines.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Each dream is a Low 2-C structure I believe

 

[Agnaa]

But anyway, Mephistus is correct that Endless comes from a lore statement in the interview and is not a game mechanic. Though, if there's is skepticism about flowery language or if some bonus game mode has a questionable canon. I still support 2-A, but fine with limiting it to just "Likely/Possibly."

There is nothing in the blog like that. The closest is the Nintendo of America preview where they're just talking about the settings for it where they mention the endless mode (not a lore statement in an interview, just a game mechanic).

Each dream is a Low 2-C structure I believe

You can believe that's the general consistent definition if you wish, but that clearly isn't the case in this statement, so we can't use it as support of infinite timelines.

And actually, having looked at the blog further....

There exists as many dream worlds as people who dream in the verse according to BS Super Mario Bros USA

That is entirely and completely incorrect, with that evidence provided.

That scan says that there is a country of dreams, Sabukon (inhabited by the Sabuko), which the Mammut invaded, leading Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Toad being hailed as heroes for kicking them out. And that there were as many Sabuko as there are dreams people see.

That has absolutely nothing to do with creating dream worlds, and in fact, it caps the number of dreams at finite, unless you think the country is infinitely large, and that the infinite population were able to be subjugated by a finite amount of Mammut, or that Mario/Luigi/Peach/Toad are capable of taking out an infinite amount of enemies in a clearly finite amount of time.

Please tell me that at least one of the 28 people who evaluated it before me checked the scans, noticed this, and has an explanation that simply isn't provided in that scan.

EDIT: I've come to think that this was wrong, and that the video was badly translated.