Ace Ukiyo Vs Ayanokoji Kiyotaka: The Genius And The Cunning Fox (7-1-2) GRACE

[Shadowslash125]

Alright, But in the scan you showed, The guy's eye started glowing and then he was able to overcome that, Isn't that why he was able to tag him though?

That's the visual indicator of Touma's extrasensory perception and AnPr working to tag Durendal. While he can see the latter in the Erased Time space, he can't move. That's why he's just stuck like that in the scan. Only when Durendal finished using that technique, he's able to attack and Touma able to counter his attack. At that point in the story, Touma is the only one able to see him when he erases time. And even then, he had to get his ass kicked a few times to actually make such a feat.

 

[RoggerReggor]

I will also be going with inconclusive. It rather seems like a probability thing. Either Kiyotaka is just observant enough to notice all the traps which supernatural luck brings to him, which will be an annoyance, and overwhelms Ace with further attacks, or Ace gets good of Kiyotaka early on and does what he absolutely loves.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Counted.

 

[RoggerReggor]

You still need to strike pretty dang hard and do quite a bit of damage for that to work

If you try to smack yourself in that same area without that much force you won't be knocked out because you're not putting enough energy into it for it to actually do anything. It does take a decent amount of energy & strength for it to do anything. Hell, carotid strikes don't even work in knocking people out sometimes.

Ace, having higher durability than Ayano's AP, should require more energy to knock him out (assuming that the amount of energy required to trigger it grows with the persons durabilty, which only makes sense; I doubt a strike that could knock me out could do anything to Mike Tyson due to him being so much bigger & more durable than me) and thus would be capable of withstanding the strike without getting knocked out as his durability will let him tank the hits from Ayano to that area because Ayano won't be hitting him hard enough to actually trigger it on him

iirc, the only person we see the pressure point actually work on in the series is someone a lot weaker than Ayano. Unless he used it against someone that's a lot stronger than him, then it's no limits fallacy, as you're assuming he can use it on anyone stronger than him and have it instantly work. Unless it's actually shown to be efficent against far stronger opponents, then it likely wont.

Pressure points aren't a universal instant durability negating one-shot move, they varry from verse-to-verse. Some verses treat pressure points as these super dangerous & powerful strikes that can harm people hundreds of times stronger, and other verses have characters tanking full power pressure point strikes no problem. Unless it's shown that Ayano's carotid strike can consistantly harm characters multiple times more powerful than him (which considering how Ayano is the most powerful person in his verse I doubt we have ever seen that), we shouldn't act like it can.

I think Kiyotaka will take some strikes, but he can actually deal every hit very clean and exactly, considering he scales above or equal to Tsukishiro who has a degree of sharpness which was noticed by even Kiyotaka who can trace measurements of very small discrepancies.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Btw Reggor, as BERRIES has said, could you make a list of what we agreed and disagree with? So that we don't retread the whole thread all over again.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Btw Reggor, as BERRIES has said, could you make a list of what we agreed and disagree with? So that we don't retread the whole thread all over again.

-> We disagreed upon there being a comparison between Ace's unpredictability regarding Precognition and unpredictability to Ayanokouji's AnPr. However, Ace is highly skilled and is, for the matter, able to damage opponents who have very high prediction power on the level of a COTE character and can identify supernatural phenomenon such as time-skips and can react to attacks by his own predicting. Ace can also overpower opponents who use Precognition which just boosts his unpredictability. Kiyotaka's impenetrable nature to surprise attacks can help in this case however, and his probability calculations can also help him with that. So, this is more on Kiyotaka's side.
-> We agreed upon the fact that Ace's supernatural luck can indeed overpower Kiyotaka depending upon how lucky Ace is (or how unlucky Kiyotaka is, for that matter). This happens to be on Ace's side.

More discussed stuff (from what I can read from the thread):
1. Ace has Supernatural Willpower, while Kiyotaka has his own motivations, so Ace proves to be advantageous in that factor.
2. Kiyotaka's fear hax can ultimately be a problem for Ace, given how Kiyotaka uses it, though him using it has a low probability in itself.
3. Ace has a much greater experience in fights, making him more confident in his own right, whereas Kiyotaka has better battle strategizing feats, making him have his own method of fighting.

This is all the stuff which we mutually disagreed/agreed upon going by what's written and didn't disregard the fighting power and abilities of both the opponents.

My personal opinion is that this fight is more dependent on Ace than Kiyotaka. His supernatural luck can eventually make it a fight very difficult for Kiyotaka to win, and he will have to watch out for Ace's attacks. Kiyotaka is not a fighter who can easily escape impossible situations. One such case I can remember is when Tsukishiro devised a strategy to get Kiyotaka to lose his attention by making Arisu fall, and then attacked Kiyotaka, which also was something which is realized late (Y1V10), though the thing is completely debatable as Kiyotaka could have anticipated future encounters and may not want to reveal his true abilities fully to an opponent like Tsukishiro.

Well, I believe that sums up most of the thread. Now, I will be escaping at my infinite speed to coach my cousin who just sucks at English (like me).

 

[Dinozxd]

You can't defy human biology and invalidate abilities to your liking :/

An attack to the carotid will take all of your oxygen going to the brain, Ceasing all functions and make you faint and collapse due to the lack of oxygen

And you can't defy the concept of durability to your liking.

If you have enough AP to pull it off that is. There's like 5x difference in AP here.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Another thing we discussed is about his pressure points, which we initially agreed on Koji's pressure points working on Ace. But with new arguments that more people interested in this thread has brought in, this confirmation is now being contested (with fair points, might I add).

Thanks to Dinozxd, we can confirm that should the battle go longer than expected, Ace can outlast Koji. Though this would result in Ace's empowerment amping him enough to end the fight somewhere along the line.

Small clarification is that Ace's luck won't overpower Koji (I mean not as a combat ability, moreso a support ability), its instead going to help Ace gain opportunities to turn the tides of the battle.

While Ace by himself is able to somewhat counter Koji's AnPr, he initially isn't able to counter all of it. At least not until the scaling and the Durendal feats get brought up, which evens the playing field considerably. At this point, Ace may be more likely to bypass Koji's AnPr by thanks to scaling from Kamen Rider Saber, who is one of the most skilled riders by thanks to hitting a Time Erasure user. It's best to read those parts again in case of confusion, since I've finally elaborated on how Durendal's Time Erasure works, and how Saber is able to make such a feat via his own AnPr.

I've read up on previous Koji battles prior to making this thread, and by far this is the most neck-and-neck battle to date for him, since the rest of the fights have been mostly carried by his AnPr. (Not to be biased btw, just my thoughts) This is literally the unstoppable force Vs the immovable wall in Vsbattle matchup form.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Also what happened to the Connor fight in his profile? Seems like it has been removed by a one 'Vapidhoe'.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Another thing we discussed is about his pressure points, which we initially agreed on Koji's pressure points working on Ace. But with new arguments that more people interested in this thread has brought in, this confirmation is now being contested (with fair points, might I add).

Thanks to Dinozxd, we can confirm that should the battle go longer than expected, Ace can outlast Koji. Though this would result in Ace's empowerment amping him enough to end the fight somewhere along the line.

I wasn't going for the probability of Kiyotaka taking down Ace in a single strike (he would take around a minute at least for that), so my stance remains the same. I still think both have

Small clarification is that Ace's luck won't overpower Koji (I mean not as a combat ability, moreso a support ability), its instead going to help Ace gain opportunities to turn the tides of the battle.

Yes. And that actually can have Kiyotaka get overpowered.

While Ace by himself is able to somewhat counter Koji's AnPr, he initially isn't able to counter all of it. At least not until the scaling and the Durendal feats get brought up, which evens the playing field considerably. At this point, Ace may be more likely to bypass Koji's AnPr by thanks to scaling from Kamen Rider Saber, who is one of the most skilled riders by thanks to hitting a Time Erasure user. It's best to read those parts again in case of confusion, since I've finally elaborated on how Durendal's Time Erasure works, and how Saber is able to make such a feat via his own AnPr.

Well, my opinion about the Time Erasure upon being shown the clip is that it is more based on the logical predictions of observations. The guy is fighting his opponent and is aware of his abilities of time-skip. Now, a time-skip can be perceived as him trying to attack his opponent, but they disappear and then try to attack him from behind (given how his opponent skips through time and moves behind him), and he sees that they quickly moved behind him and disappeared from his POV, so it doesn't take a genius to say that the opponent is absolutely not in the front, but in the back, and makes the necessary movements.

Kiyotaka's AnPr is more based on abilities Information Analysis than being based on the analysis of stances of movements, and considering how I read your entire response and you told that you have read the past threads, it has been evident that Kiyotaka possesses enough AnPr to basically stomp stances of movements AnPrs. Either way, his opponent's knowledge (supergenius intelligence) far surpasses his own and is also very experienced at fighting, so skills is not a debate, though Kiyotaka has more to counter with his BIQ-oriented approach. Kiyotaka's AnPr (or let me say, it probably isn't even AnPr because it is very different from it and only matches it in terms of predicting and nothing else) cannot be countered by natural means of being unpredictable, because all the opponents who could be as unpredictable as possible have been defeated by him, and that includes feints, cross-attacks, redirections and major attack deceptions. He basically predicts the entire approach of a person, and measures how much can they actually use their abilities for and makes logical predictions. The only AnPr you can resist against him would be not showing the upper limits, and it isn't the only weapon which Kiyotaka has. He goes above what normal AnPr has to offer.

I sometimes actually wish that there was an ability which included the method which he used, and the COTE author is yet to mention his approach, and when he is mentioned with it, his battle intelligence will be upgraded massively, as if it is not very high already.

I've read up on previous Koji battles prior to making this thread, and by far this is the most neck-and-neck battle to date for him, since the rest of the fights have been mostly carried by his AnPr. (Not to be biased btw, just my thoughts) This is literally the unstoppable force Vs the immovable wall in Vsbattle matchup form.

As a Kiyotaka supporter, I am happy we are finally happening to find a fair matchup for him, and against a verse which reached Tier 1.

 

[Shadowslash125]

I am happy we are finally happening to find a fair matchup for him, and against a verse which reached Tier 1

This is probably one of the fairest characters to use against Koji tbh. Other characters would either fall for his AnPr or straight-up stomp by going from Tier 9 to around 2 in mere seconds (and they haven't even transformed yet).
Don't even look at the Zero-One Riders.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Also what happened to the Connor fight in his profile? Seems like it has been removed by a one 'Vapidhoe'.

Not a new thing about his matchup removal.

This is probably one of the fairest characters to use against Koji tbh. Other characters would either fall for his AnPr or straight-up stomp by going from Tier 9 to around 2 in mere seconds (and they haven't even transformed yet).
Don't even look at the Zero-One Riders.

Ace mogs Kiyotaka in looks.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Not a new thing about his matchup removal.

What's up with him?

(Btw actual post coming, just wanna y'know, unwind a bit)

Ace mogs Kiyotaka in looks.

Mhmm yes he does

 

[Shadowslash125]

Kiyotaka's AnPr is more based on abilities Information Analysis than being based on the analysis of stances of movements, and considering how I read your entire response and you told that you have read the past threads, it has been evident that Kiyotaka possesses enough AnPr to basically stomp stances of movements AnPrs. Either way, his opponent's knowledge (supergenius intelligence) far surpasses his own and is also very experienced at fighting, so skills is not a debate, though Kiyotaka has more to counter with his BIQ-oriented approach. Kiyotaka's AnPr (or let me say, it probably isn't even AnPr because it is very different from it and only matches it in terms of predicting and nothing else) cannot be countered by natural means of being unpredictable, because all the opponents who could be as unpredictable as possible have been defeated by him, and that includes feints, cross-attacks, redirections and major attack deceptions. He basically predicts the entire approach of a person, and measures how much can they actually use their abilities for and makes logical predictions. The only AnPr you can resist against him would be not showing the upper limits, and it isn't the only weapon which Kiyotaka has. He goes above what normal AnPr has to offer.

Btw I'm gonna need an elaboration on this. While I'm sure that my peers will probably understand this, I'm admittedly inexperienced and gonna need an explanation since it's not normal AnPr and more leaning towards the Info Analysis side.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Btw I'm gonna need an elaboration on this. While I'm sure that my peers will probably understand this, I'm admittedly inexperienced and gonna need an explanation since it's not normal AnPr and more leaning towards the Info Analysis side.

It's simple. It is more based on him deriving the upper limit of his opponents then him actually predicting attacks via body movements. Though yes, White Room does teach ways to improve observation and intuition and it includes the scanning of body movements as well. So yes, Ace highly counters his normal and very conventional AnPr, but doesn't do the same with the other abilities which are more reliant on the Information Analysis part. I hope you get me. I also happen to plan to be making a document with feats and scans from the novel to explain his abilities, considering how all the information is just scattered around in the novel.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

And you can't defy the concept of durability to your liking.

If you have enough AP to pull it off that is. There's like 5x difference in AP here.

I am not, A 5x difference isn't that much anyway

Moreover, The neck is not as durable as the overall durability

Here, It says the neck is a vulnerable part of the body, Which basically means the neck isn't 9-B either and is lower than that

 

[Shadowslash125]

It's simple. It is more based on him deriving the upper limit of his opponents then him actually predicting attacks via body movements. Though yes, White Room does teach ways to improve observation and intuition and it includes the scanning of body movements as well. So yes, Ace highly counters his normal and very conventional AnPr, but doesn't do the same with the other abilities which are more reliant on the Information Analysis part. I hope you get me.

Ok, that clicks a lot, I understand it now. While I may be unable to answer this well, I'll try as much as possible regardless.

Firstly, Ace doesn't exactly fight unpredictably, it's just that he has a lot more to work with due to his 2000 years of experience (I'll try my best not to talk about this anymore since we've agreed about his skill, but do note that some are connected to it). However, his fighting stuff is already more than enough to face off against humans and Jyamato alike, so there's that I guess.

Secondly, as we've touched about in this thread, Ace won't likely start fighting with all of his skills, since he normally holds back when he fights other people but at the same time, he's paranoid enough not to let his guard down. This means that he'll probably gauge his skill level to at least be above Koji without revealing all his cards. This is what he did to newer members of the DGP like Keiwa and Neon. If something is awry, he'll try not to hold back, at which Koji could read his upper limit. Even then, his upper limit would be incredibly high compared to all the other combatants he has fought prior.

Thirdly, while I'm not saying Koji's Info Analysis isn't impressive, Ace is no stranger to Information Analysis being used against him before. Even in his main series, users of the Magnum buckle gain access to Information Analysis, which stores a large database of shooting styles and can analyse information such as the weather and geography to improve the accuracy of shooting and techniques. And even with that, Dapaan still couldn't land a hit on him. Even his entry form has it, acting as a radar. Then we look at the riders who scale to him, notably Kamen Rider Saber, the Ryuki Riders and Revice. Saber can capture surrounding information and the state of the enemy. Ryuki Riders can accurately detect and track an enemy’s position and can use the battle information gained by their contract monsters and vice versa. Both Revi and Vice can identify the weak points or the shape and nature of objects with a touch. Ace scales to all three and has defeated the three strongest Ryuki riders, not to mention stalemating both Revi and Vice, who fought Saber.

Finally, these Rider's IA always go hand in hand with enhanced senses and even have Extrasensory Perception to complement those two. Ace himself doesn't have it, so we focus on the riders he scales to. Saber can see through flames, which possibly means he can see through objects, and accurately see and track targets when he's flying using another form. Ryuki and Knight can see 15km and hear 25km away and have infrared and night vision. Revi's compound eyes give dynamic vision and a wide viewing angle, which can accurately capture the movement of any small target. Vice has four eyes which can be freely manipulated, each has a wide viewing angle in searching enemy; additionally, his visual acuity is about 8.6 when compared to humans. And since Revice is straight up two Riders, their accuracy is improved via cooperation. While sure, not all of them are going to be applicable in this matchup, Ace has fought and/or scaled to them enough that these all become manageable.

Based on this, Ace can probably give Koji a run for his money.

 

[Dinozxd]

I am not, A 5x difference isn't that much anyway

It is. 8x difference is the one shot gap. A 5x gap is almost there.

An average human durability scales to 50 joules in the wiki. a 5x gap would be 250 Joules, which is high end Athletic Human. That's pretty much an average boxer's punch, and an average boxer can absolutely wreck (violence warning) even an average street fighter, let alone an average human.

Moreover, The neck is not as durable as the overall durability

Here, It says the neck is a vulnerable part of the body, Which basically means the neck isn't 9-B either and is lower than that

I can't see anywhere in that scan that an attack to the neck bypasses durability. The neck is just weaker than the overall body, which isn't a quantifiable gap. The neck not being 9-B is a complete assumption and headcanon made by you here.

You really gotta drop this "pressure points are 10-C until proven to be higher" stuff you made up, Zetsu. There's no such rule accepted in the wiki. Pressure Points don't negate durability unless the pressure point in question is specifically stated to work that way in the verse. At best punching a pressure point of a character would damage that character more than a normal punch would, which isn't quantifiable enough to close a significant AP gap (especially here, where the gap in question is more than 5x). Ayanokouji can only start damaging Ace once he tires out.

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

It is. 8x difference is the one shot gap. A 5x gap is almost there.

An average human durability scales to 50 joules in the wiki. a 5x gap would be 250 Joules, which is high end Athletic Human. That's pretty much an average boxer's punch, and an average boxer can absolutely wreck (violence warning) even an average street fighter, let alone an average human.

I can't see anywhere in that scan that an attack to the neck bypasses durability. The neck is just weaker than the overall body, which isn't a quantifiable gap. The neck not being 9-B is a complete assumption and headcanon made by you here.

You really gotta drop this "pressure points are 10-C until proven to be higher" stuff you made up, Zetsu. There's no such rule accepted in the wiki. Pressure Points don't negate durability unless the pressure point in question is specifically stated to work that way in the verse. At best punching a pressure point of a character would damage that character more than a normal punch would, which isn't quantifiable enough to close a significant AP gap (especially here, where the gap in question is more than 5x). Ayanokouji can only start damaging Ace once he tires out.

This is pretty much the arguement I was trying to make earlier.

Unless one of the verses shows that pressure points can harm characters vastly stronger than themselves (such as a 9-A character getting hurt by a 9-C in their verse through pressure points or vice versa), then it's faulty to assume that pressure points can cover an AP gap that big.

Assuming that every single fictional character's pressure points are 10-C because real life humans pressure points are 10-C is an Association fallacy at best, as you're assuming because real life human necks are 10-C than fictional super strong human necks are also 10-C, or a no limits fallacy at worst, because you're assuming that no matter how strong a character is, a far weaker character could still harm them with pressure points

 

[Dinozxd]

Assuming that every single fictional character's pressure points are 10-C because real life humans pressure points are 10-C is an Association fallacy at best, as you're assuming because real life human necks are 10-C than fictional super strong human necks are also 10-C, or a no limits fallacy at worst,

Maybe Appealing to Reality as well cuz that's an actual fallacy too, appearently.

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

This is pretty much the arguement I was trying to make earlier.

Unless one of the verses shows that pressure points can harm characters vastly stronger than themselves (such as a 9-A character getting hurt by a 9-C in their verse through pressure points or vice versa), then it's faulty to assume that pressure points can cover an AP gap that big.

Assuming that every single fictional character's pressure points are 10-C because real life humans pressure points are 10-C is an Association fallacy at best, as you're assuming because real life human necks are 10-C than fictional super strong human necks are also 10-C, or a no limits fallacy at worst, because you're assuming that no matter how strong a character is, a far weaker character could still harm them with pressure points

Hey since we're on this topic, I wanted to bring up Ayanos past matches. They shouldn't be on his profile.

This one assumes that he can harm a person with a 21x AP advantage through pressure points despite COTE pressure points never being shown to close an AP gap that big, and that verse not getting harmed by 9-C pressure points. It also ignores the fact that Donald has experience with characters that have simular levels of AnPr to Ayano and still won despite being weakened.

This one assumes he can overcome a 33x AP advantage and that he would somehow be able to read an opponent perfectly despite the fact that the room was dark. Earlier in this thread it was said that his AnPr relies on visual cues

It's simple. It is more based on him deriving the upper limit of his opponents then him actually predicting attacks via body movements. Though yes, White Room does teach ways to improve observation and intuition and it includes the scanning of body movements as well. So yes, Ace highly counters his normal and very conventional AnPr, but doesn't do the same with the other abilities which are more reliant on the Information Analysis part. I hope you get me. I also happen to plan to be making a document with feats and scans from the novel to explain his abilities, considering how all the information is just scattered around in the novel.

And neither had prior knowledge in the match so assuming Ayano could read his opponent like this is very faulty. He has managed to dodge attacks he didn't see coming, but they seemed to be single attacks, he has never faught a whole battle completely blind before.

Another pressure points based win against someone with a >30x AP advantage

A pressure points based win with characters 300x stronger than Ayano

Again, unless Ayano can consistantly harm characters with 20 - 300x AP advantages with his pressure point strikes, then none of these matches should count, as all of these guys could easily tank anything Ayano could throw at them. You could maybe argue incon for some of them, as some of the characters might not ever manage to hit Ayano, but assuming Ayano can overcome such a large AP advantage through just pressure points alone despite Ayano never showing such levels of strength with his pressure points and having that be his only way of winning is pretty much as inaccurate as you can get, and those matches should probably be removed.

How would we go about removing those? Would we just contact a mod and ask them if that's okay or can I go in rn and do that?

 

[XxZetsuxX]

It is. 8x difference is the one shot gap. A 5x gap is almost there.

An average human durability scales to 50 joules in the wiki. a 5x gap would be 250 Joules, which is high end Athletic Human. That's pretty much an average boxer's punch, and an average boxer can absolutely wreck (violence warning) even an average street fighter, let alone an average human.

I can't see anywhere in that scan that an attack to the neck bypasses durability. The neck is just weaker than the overall body, which isn't a quantifiable gap. The neck not being 9-B is a complete assumption and headcanon made by you here.

You really gotta drop this "pressure points are 10-C until proven to be higher" stuff you made up, Zetsu. There's no such rule accepted in the wiki. Pressure Points don't negate durability unless the pressure point in question is specifically stated to work that way in the verse. At best punching a pressure point of a character would damage that character more than a normal punch would, which isn't quantifiable enough to close a significant AP gap (especially here, where the gap in question is more than 5x). Ayanokouji can only start damaging Ace once he tires out.

This is pretty much the arguement I was trying to make earlier.

Unless one of the verses shows that pressure points can harm characters vastly stronger than themselves (such as a 9-A character getting hurt by a 9-C in their verse through pressure points or vice versa), then it's faulty to assume that pressure points can cover an AP gap that big.

Assuming that every single fictional character's pressure points are 10-C because real life humans pressure points are 10-C is an Association fallacy at best, as you're assuming because real life human necks are 10-C than fictional super strong human necks are also 10-C, or a no limits fallacy at worst, because you're assuming that no matter how strong a character is, a far weaker character could still harm them with pressure points

Saying a 9-C cannot harm a 9-B with PP when the difference isn't that big is outrageous and pure downplay ngl

The neck might not be 10-C but i can guarantee you it ain't where Ace scales to either since it's weaker

Also, I lost it when Dino said Koji can't damage Ace because of 5x gap

You think a 5x gap in AP makes you invulnerable?? This is just lack of common sense

 

[Dinozxd]

How would we go about removing those? Would we just contact a mod and ask them if that's okay or can I go in rn and do that?

You'd go in this thread to make a versus thread removal request. Although I have voted in Koji's favor in some of these threads, I do agree on at least removing the ones above the one shot gap.

Saying a 9-C cannot harm a 9-B with PP when the difference isn't that big is outrageous and purely downplay ngl

It is big and I explained how big it is with an irl example.

The neck might not be 10-C but i can guarantee you it ain't where Ace scales to either since it's weaker

That's your own opinion.

Also, I lost it when Dino said Koji can't damage Ace because of 5x gap

You think a 5x gap in AP makes you invulnerable?? This is just lack of common sense

These are some more of your personal opinions that I have no interest in to be honest.

Also, I realized how I used 50 joules as Average Human durability while it's actually accepted as 60 Joules on the wiki. A 5x difference would be Baseline Street Level, which is straight up considered superhuman irl. A 5x difference is legit the gap between an average human and superhuman, and yet we're still discussing if Ayano can damage a perfectly healthy Ace lol

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

Saying a 9-C cannot harm a 9-B with PP when the difference isn't that big is outrageous and pure downplay ngl

There was talk of making a 5x AP diffrence a one-shot gap at one time.

We're not (Or at least I'm not) saying that he couldn't harm Ace, we're saying that he's not just going to one-shot him instantly with a carotid strike or instantly win due to pressure points, the pressure points won't do much more damage then Ayanos normal strikes and don't automatically make this match turn in his favor. Knowing to punch someone in the throat doesn't make you suddenly able to take someone twice your strength down with a single hit and definetly not someone over 300x your strength like in that one Ayano matchup

The neck might not be 10-C but i can guarantee you it ain't where Ace scales to either since it's weaker

Can you tell me how much weaker it is compared to the rest of the body? Because unless you can do that, then it's just unquantifiably weaker, and we simply just downscale it a bit from his normal durability, meaning it's still 9-B

Also, I lost it when Dino said Koji can't damage Ace because of 5x gap

You think a 5x gap in AP makes you invulnerable?? This is just lack of common sense

You're strawmanning here. Dino never said that Ayano couldn't damage Ace and that he's invulnerable, but that Ayanos hits wouldn't do much to him because a 5x strength diffrence is a big diffrence and that it will take a hell of a lot of hits to really do any life threatening & critical damage. If you want proof on how big a 5x strength advantage is, The Mountain is likely not even 2x Conor Mcgregor's striking strength and yet Conor was doing f*cking nothing to him with his strikes in this video

A 5x strength diffrence is enough to break bones (70 Joules for a decently fit male vs 375 Joules needed to break bone), yet you're trying to argue that "it's not that big."

I think Dino isn't the one lacking common sense here tbh

I am not, A 5x difference isn't that much anyway

Moreover, The neck is not as durable as the overall durability

Here, It says the neck is a vulnerable part of the body, Which basically means the neck isn't 9-B either and is lower than that

That post that you linked is talking about how its a vulnerable area for the SPINE, because the spine is less protected up there and the bones in your neck are smaller than the rest of the spine, and if that area gets damaged, it damages the rest of your body. It never once talked about pressure points in your neck or said that your neck is weaker than the rest of your body, just that the neck is the weakest part of your spine.

The neck region is the most vulnerable region of the spine to injury. Indeed, even death can be brought through significant trauma to the neck. When the trauma is not fatal, the consequences can still be severe, such as when paralysis strikes.

Most people will not experience these severe injuries, however sprains of the delicate ligaments with subluxation (misalignment) do commonly occur. Despite the injury being smaller, their location (the neck) makes their impact more profound. Functions throughout the body can be impaired when the nerves in the upper neck are compromised.

Did you actually read that at all or did you just see "The neck region is the most vulnerable" and just stop there without thinking about it for more than 2 seconds?

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

You'd go in this thread to make a versus thread removal request. Although I have voted in Koji's favor in some of these threads, I do agree on at least removing the ones above the one shot gap.

So, litteraly all of them?

 

[Shadowslash125]

I am curious though. Since based on what you're saying is that Koji's pressure points won't be enough to down Ace in one shot, how else can he damage him reliably?

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

I am curious though. Since based on what you're saying is that Koji's pressure points won't be enough to down Ace in one shot, how else can he damage him reliably?

He could still eventually take him down with punches given enough time, a 5x AP gap isn't a one-shot or anything, but we already discussed that Ace has higher stamina, so that plus better physicals will make trying to just kill Ace via death by 1,000 punches not viable

Other than that, I don't know much ways Ayano can win. Unless Ayano massivley outskills here, then Ace, with a mix of his luck, better physicals, stamina, intelligence, and 2,000 years of experience should win this. I won't vote just yet as it seems like arguements for skill are still happening, but unless Ayano holds a giant edge in skill then Ace probably has this

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Thread of all time. Following as of rn

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

Actually, nvm, I'm going to vote for Ace.

Ayano is more skilled and AnPr will keep him out of harms way for a while, but this battle is eventually going to come down to a battle of attrition.

Ayano won't be able to predict Ace's luck. Firstly, he doesn't know that Ace even has this ability, so he can't prepare for it. Second, Ayano won't prepare for stuff like "What if my hand gets caught in the fence" or "what if I slip right as I'm about to punch him." Ayano wouldn't know to prepare for this as he's a perfect fighter and won't think that he will make slip ups like that and there really isn't anyway he could prepare for that. With supernatural luck, any number of things could happen, and Ayano predicting and preparing for all of them is nearly impossible. Ayano has great predictions, but saying that he can predict every single tiny way Ace's luck will effect him is borderline NLF. I think Ayano's AnPr is kind of overexaterated in power as people treat it like it's Spider-Sense when it's honestly only upscaling peak human AnPr, but that's a topic for another day

Even ignoring luck, Ace has better stats so he'll be able to take quite a lot of punishment, better stamina so he'll be fighting for much longer, 2,000 years of experience to work with, higher intelligence, and great willpower. Even if he can't hit Ayano, Ayano will tire out faster than Ace and it will eventually get to the point that Ace can hit Ayano, and those hits on a tired Ayano will do some serious damage.

The match is pretty close, but in the end, skill can only get you so far when your opponent is physically better than you and is crazy lucky. Unless there's any decent counterarguements, I'll go with Ace

 

[RoggerReggor]

Hey since we're on this topic, I wanted to bring up Ayanos past matches. They shouldn't be on his profile.

This one assumes that he can harm a person with a 21x AP advantage through pressure points despite COTE pressure points never being shown to close an AP gap that big, and that verse not getting harmed by 9-C pressure points. It also ignores the fact that Donald has experience with characters that have simular levels of AnPr to Ayano and still won despite being weakened.

This one assumes he can overcome a 33x AP advantage and that he would somehow be able to read an opponent perfectly despite the fact that the room was dark. Earlier in this thread it was said that his AnPr relies on visual cues

And neither had prior knowledge in the match so assuming Ayano could read his opponent like this is very faulty. He has managed to dodge attacks he didn't see coming, but they seemed to be single attacks, he has never faught a whole battle completely blind before.

Another pressure points based win against someone with a >30x AP advantage

A pressure points based win with characters 300x stronger than Ayano

Again, unless Ayano can consistantly harm characters with 20 - 300x AP advantages with his pressure point strikes, then none of these matches should count, as all of these guys could easily tank anything Ayano could throw at them. You could maybe argue incon for some of them, as some of the characters might not ever manage to hit Ayano, but assuming Ayano can overcome such a large AP advantage through just pressure points alone despite Ayano never showing such levels of strength with his pressure points and having that be his only way of winning is pretty much as inaccurate as you can get, and those matches should probably be removed.

How would we go about removing those? Would we just contact a mod and ask them if that's okay or can I go in rn and do that?

Around 3 of the matches you mentioned aren't in Kiyotaka's side because of Pressure Points, but also due to his insane stamina advantage as well, and due to him being able to regain stamina and maintain his composure and having almost no reaction to even high amounts of pain, blood loss or anything which can be used to torture a human being. And one of the fights in which he didn't have higher stamina, he was fighting against a normal girl who just happened to have higher AP and nothing else in her pocket except for being given a weapon (and also, there was some stuff about Kiyotaka trying to disarm her and using her weapon against herself), so no, these are legitimate matchups, only the 3 pirates one can be debatable somehow.

And again, I am not the kind of person to go with a character being able to harm the another just through Pressure Points. As you can see, I have participated in most of the threads, and I don't frequently debate about his Pressure Points abilities, I myself know that Pressure Points as an ability is a fairly controversial one.

Also, Kiyotaka just has a Pressure Points which is able to harm people. Pressure Points still harms other characters because it is essentially attacking those parts of the body which don't even have the concept of durability, and are very sensitive to any kind of stuff, even touches can feel like tickles and small flicks can cause high amounts of pain. Though yes, knocking a character in one-hit is not possible for Kiyotaka. He has used that ability of his and only to test his opponent's endurance, and he hardly tries to actually one-shot people with it. He has one-shot characters with much higher durability using Pressure Points in his own verse, and has not one-shot characters with much lesser durability and has used Pressure Points again. Pressure Points is not an attack to durability, but to endurance (pain tolerance in wiki terms).

 

[Tomfer]

I'd appreciate if someone made a summary of the main points here because I'm not reading 4 pages, lmao.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Ayano won't be able to predict Ace's luck. Firstly, he doesn't know that Ace even has this ability, so he can't prepare for it. Second, Ayano won't prepare for stuff like "What if my hand gets caught in the fence" or "what if I slip right as I'm about to punch him." Ayano wouldn't know to prepare for this as he's a perfect fighter and won't think that he will make slip ups like that and there really isn't anyway he could prepare for that. With supernatural luck, any number of things could happen, and Ayano predicting and preparing for all of them is nearly impossible. Ayano has great predictions, but saying that he can predict every single tiny way Ace's luck will effect him is borderline NLF.

There were no concrete arguments regarding Ayanokouji predicting everything which Ace's luck brought upon him, but rather just probability (50-50) stuff which makes me believe it's inconclusive than going to completely one side.

I think Ayano's AnPr is kind of overexaterated in power as people treat it like it's Spider-Sense when it's honestly only upscaling peak human AnPr, but that's a topic for another day

Kiyotaka massively upscales, and outpredicted a person who has narratively extraordinary AnPr. And again, there's nothing like "Peak human AnPr". This has been brought countless times in the thread. AnPr itself is a fairly superhuman ability, and it is itself said so:

The most mundane examples of Analytical Prediction are scarcely better than what's achievable in real life, relying on physical tells and strategy to stay ahead of opponents, and are often unreliable for a user to foreknow events and plan far ahead.

 

[RoggerReggor]

I'd appreciate if someone made a summary of the main points here because I'm not reading 4 pages, lmao.

You might want to read this and the one after it by ShadowSlash in response, it basically covers everything. As of now, the Pressure Points stuff hasn't reached a point conclusion.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Actually, nvm, I'm going to vote for Ace.

Counted.

 

[Dinozxd]

I'm not really sure if Ace will be tired out before Ayanokouji given his stamina advantage.

Ace just has more wincons than Koji which makes me wanna vote for him tbh. Ace FRA

 

[BERRIES555]

I’ll be going for Ace FRA as well

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

Around 3 of the matches you mentioned aren't in Kiyotaka's side because of Pressure Points, but also due to his insane stamina advantage as well, and due to him being able to regain stamina and maintain his composure and having almost no reaction to even high amounts of pain, blood loss or anything which can be used to torture a human being. And one of the fights in which he didn't have higher stamina, he was fighting against a normal girl who just happened to have higher AP and nothing else in her pocket except for being given a weapon (and also, there was some stuff about Kiyotaka trying to disarm her and using her weapon against herself), so no, these are legitimate matchups, only the 3 pirates one can be debatable somehow.

The entire arguement for him winning against Donald said that he would spam pressure points and dodge until he won. If you were to remove his pressure points, he would've never harmed Donald in that match. A massive part of him winning was due to pressure points.

In the Legosi match, his better stamina wasn't mentioned once, and it all relied on the arguement that Ayano would be able to predict Legosi and know with 100% accuracy what he would do despite not being able to see him. And ofc pressure points to harm him.

And in the 3 pirates match, Stamina wasn't the major arguement, it was skill. Pressure points wasn't brought up much either, but that was pretty clearly the reasoning as to why Ayano could harm them

And again, I am not the kind of person to go with a character being able to harm the another just through Pressure Points. As you can see, I have participated in most of the threads, and I don't frequently debate about his Pressure Points abilities, I myself know that Pressure Points as an ability is a fairly controversial one.

Also, Kiyotaka just has a Pressure Points which is able to harm people. Pressure Points still harms other characters because it is essentially attacking those parts of the body which don't even have the concept of durability, and are very sensitive to any kind of stuff, even touches can feel like tickles and small flicks can cause high amounts of pain. Though yes, knocking a character in one-hit is not possible for Kiyotaka. He has used that ability of his and only to test his opponent's endurance, and he hardly tries to actually one-shot people with it. He has one-shot characters with much higher durability using Pressure Points in his own verse, and has not one-shot characters with much lesser durability and has used Pressure Points again. Pressure Points is not an attack to durability, but to endurance (pain tolerance in wiki terms).

So using your logic, because pressure points don't have durability, if something worth 1 joule hit me on my throat, I would be gasping for air because my windpipe got crushed? A breeze blows too hard and suddenly I collapse because I got hit in the liver?

Pressure points very obviously have durability, you can't just lightly flick your throat and cause severe damage to it. There is no pressure point on the body that you can just lightly press on and suddenly you kill them. The entire reason behind pressure points is that you're attacking a part of the body that is squishier and weaker or has some other effect like the carotid strike. The only way you can cause pain via pressure points is by hitting them hard enough to damage them and cause pain in the body. If you lightly flick someones throat, you won't cause any pain in the slightest. That's why you would punch it, so that you can deal a lot of damage to the throat and, since it's a sensitive area, inflict great amounts of pain. But if someones throat is too durable for you to do any damage to because they have a 300x Durability advantage over you, you're not going to inflict enough damage on them to actually do anything.

Unless those characters that Ayano is knocking out are 20x stronger than him, then we have no proof that Ayano can cover a 20x Durability gap with just pressure points. If those characters were 20x stronger than him, then cool, he can close gaps that big with pressure points. I'd love to see the scan that says that they're 20x stronger than him, and that Ayano took them out in a single hit with just pressure points alone. Isn't the whole point of Ayano that he's the strongest in his verse?

Unless either verse consistantly has weaker characters hurt FAR stronger characters with pressure points, we assume that they cant. Ayano has never been shown hurting people with 20 - 300x his AP with his strikes, the other persons throat or liver or whatever would be too durable for Ayano to muster enough force to actually hurt them. Pressure points are not durability negation, they are just weak spots. And unless a persons weak spot has been shown to be effected by people 20 - 300x weaker than themselves, then we assume that they're relative to the persons durability, just downscaled a bit.

This whole "pressure points are 10-C" arguement really needs to stop. It's only applicable if that statement is consistantly shown in that characters verse. Unless I'm missing something from Donalds, Legosi, Suisei, or the pirates' verses that says they get harmed by PP strikes substantially weaker then them, then we assume that they cant, thus making the previous matches invalid, as that's the entire arguement as to why Ayano would be able to harm them.

I'm starting to wonder how much of the arguements you guys actually read. Me & Dino covered most of this earlier.

You really gotta drop this "pressure points are 10-C until proven to be higher" stuff you made up, Zetsu. There's no such rule accepted in the wiki. Pressure Points don't negate durability unless the pressure point in question is specifically stated to work that way in the verse. At best punching a pressure point of a character would damage that character more than a normal punch would, which isn't quantifiable enough to close a significant AP gap (especially here, where the gap in question is more than 5x). Ayanokouji can only start damaging Ace once he tires out.

Unless one of the verses shows that pressure points can harm characters vastly stronger than themselves (such as a 9-A character getting hurt by a 9-C in their verse through pressure points or vice versa), then it's faulty to assume that pressure points can cover an AP gap that big.

Assuming that every single fictional character's pressure points are 10-C because real life humans pressure points are 10-C is an Association fallacy at best, as you're assuming because real life human necks are 10-C than fictional super strong human necks are also 10-C, or a no limits fallacy at worst, because you're assuming that no matter how strong a character is, a far weaker character could still harm them with pressure points

And unless stated otherwise, pretty much every single match that involves pressure points don't treat them in the way that you described, because that's not how they work. If you want to completley change how pressure points work on this site, you can go ahead and try to do that, I'd be down to continue this debate there. But saying that pressure points don't apply to durability is not how pressure points work. In order to attack their endurance and do damage to a pressure point, you have to put in enough force to actually damage it. And for 9-B characters, that means that you would have to put in 9-B forces in order to harm them.

Anyways, everyone else in this thread but you & Zetsu seemingly agree with me & Dino on this you 2 do seem to be the Ayano fanboys, wonder if there's any corelation with that or not so let's move on from this arguement

There were no concrete arguments regarding Ayanokouji predicting everything which Ace's luck brought upon him, but rather just probability (50-50) stuff which makes me believe it's inconclusive than going to completely one side.

Luckily I explained why Ace also has other wincons outside of luck here:

Even ignoring luck, Ace has better stats so he'll be able to take quite a lot of punishment, better stamina so he'll be fighting for much longer, 2,000 years of experience to work with, higher intelligence, and great willpower. Even if he can't hit Ayano, Ayano will tire out faster than Ace and it will eventually get to the point that Ace can hit Ayano, and those hits on a tired Ayano will do some serious damage.

Luck is just the cherry on top that confirms my vote

Kiyotaka massively upscales, and outpredicted a person who has narratively extraordinary AnPr. And again, there's nothing like "Peak human AnPr". This has been brought countless times in the thread. AnPr itself is a fairly superhuman ability, and it is itself said so:

AnPr is a real thing that humans can do though. It's used all the time in competative sports, especially combat sports. Hell, chess requires a lot of analytical prediction. A lot of the feats in COTE that other characters pull, such as predicting the trajectory of a volleyball, is stuff real life athletes do all the dang time. And having a "narratively extraordinary" ability doesn't really matter. All that means is that the character is impressive for their verse and in their narrative, but that doesn't suddenly make it superhuman. Homelander is narratively the strongest character in The Boys TV show, but throw him up against the most fodder versions of Superman & he's getting folded in a millisecond.

It's impressive inside of the verse, but that doesn't suddenly make it superhuman. A lot of the feats the COTE characters pull, and even some of the feats Ayano does, is realistically possible with a real humans AnPr. Many of the attacks Ayano blocks, he reacts to and blocks after they were thrown, which athletic humans can do by predicting where the attack is going to land and blocking/dodging it before it can reach them. I agree that Ayano's AnPr is above any real humans capabilities, but you guys treat it like it's spider-sense or like it's Ethan Morgan's seer abilities. It's not. Ayano is better at it than any human, but claiming that he becomes an untouchable god with it is a bit silly, he makes mistakes with his predictions and a good enough fighter can definetly overcome it.

Isn't the main reason Ayano is so good at doging in his verse because he speed blitz a majority of them? I would think that having better speed than pretty much everyone in his verse would make it easier for him to dodge their attacks

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

So the current vote seems to be 3-0-2.

To the OP, I'd reccomend putting the current scores in the title of the match that way those scrolling through the fourms know what the general verdict is and can help FRA the thread

 

[Shadowslash125]

I'm not really sure if Ace will be tired out before Ayanokouji given his stamina advantage.

Ace just has more wincons than Koji which makes me wanna vote for him tbh. Ace FRA

I’ll be going for Ace FRA as well

Counted and Counted.
I'll also join the FRA train.

 

[Shadowslash125]

So the current vote seems to be 3-0-2.

To the OP, I'd reccomend putting the current scores in the title of the match that way those scrolling through the fourms know what the general verdict is and can help FRA the thread

And I'll do just that.