Accelerator's Post-headshot key

[Scrlk666777]

@Malox

But he has shown to be able to still do complex calculations so what are you even going on about? Do you not realize how complex slowing/stopping the earth's rotation while not destroying the earth, is? It's highly complex.

Being able to figure of 25,000 different energies on the spot while fighting again takes hugely complex calculations.

Flinging a 1000 people without truly harming and killing a single one again takes highly complex calculations.

Breaking a contract which is said was like cutting an egg with a chainsaw without breaking the yolk, again probably takes high calculation power to do.

You are arguing what was said over what has been shown.

What has been shown is that Accel does not struggle with complex calculations Post-headshot. He's only struggled in what he does and doesn't understand.

 

[Scrlk666777]

perhaps he should have a variable tier. something like:
Attack Potency: Varies. City level up to At least Planet level if serious

This might work but it also might confuses people more at the same time.

Maybe Attack Potency: City level, likely far higher, possibly Planet Level.

Accel really works of the strength of his oppnant among other circumstances more than whether he is serious or not although this is pre-headshot Accel we are talking about and he was hardly ever serious

I always thought the Mina Mathers and taotei fights were PIS imo. The second one espeically as it didn't make much sense that he struggled against the Level 4 version but yet easily defeated the level 5 version. Accel's manga is full of inconsistences.

 

[Malox1696]

And technically speaking why are the nerfed MG durability so high ? Yes they did fight each other, but they never actually hit each other they use their own attack to fight each other or magic

 

[Scrlk666777]

Nerfed magic god's durability is fine and can we please keep on topic, which is Accel. That is a different conversation that has nothing to do with anything here,

 

[Malox1696]

This might work but it also might confuses people more at the same time.

Maybe Attack Potency: City level, likely far higher, possibly Planet Level.

Accel really works of the strength of his oppnant among other circumstances more than whether he is serious or not although this is pre-headshot Accel we are talking about and he was hardly ever serious

I always thought the Mina Mathers and taotei fights were PIS imo. The second one espeically as it didn't make much sense that he struggled against the Level 4 version but yet easily defeated the level 5 version. Accel's manga is full of inconsistences.

they are not PIS simply they can makes more variables than accel can calculate, especially mina that can move any part of her body (energy) like she wants as she is not human and a mass of energy, she just made so many movements with so many variable he could not keep up with the calculations as mina is a far superior in raw calculations

for esper vs esper u need to remember that they alter the quantum physic with their calculation, so the one with more calculation power overwrite the changes someone else makes as they can take in account the opponent calculation

 

[TIHYDDWBE]

I wouldn't say it is PIS. it makes alot of sense. how do you beat a guy who has a lot of calculations to counter complex vectors? use greater calculations to create even greater, more complex vectors.

Disagree with a possibly rating aswell since I don't think it's warranted. Theres alot of evidence for it to be applied in full I don't think it would confuse people either, just write something along the lines of (generally holds back but when serious can reach x level) as justification next to the ap.

 

[Scrlk666777]

The thing is if that was true then Accel wouldn't have been able to do half of the things he was able to do due to having a very poor calculation ability as Malox keeps continuously trying to point out.

I would agree Mina isn't really PIS due to various reasons but I do stand by that he whole situation with Taotei was, especially since he has shown to be capable of doing complex calculations that way out surpasses that of Taotei.

That said we also have to figure in that he was recovering from his brain injury at the time and he even said himself that he had to have rehabilitation before he was able to use even half.

 

[Malox1696]

it's half what he had before, not poor, it's still better than lvl 4 and kekinay and technically speaking it's not his calculation power but the Sisters network calculation power

it's not PIS as taotei had more calculation power at that time by linking himself with the other, he was already boosted to lvl 5 than he linked itself with others gaining even more calculation power

 

[TIHYDDWBE]

Who said Accelerator had poor calculation ability? because that is not the case at all. Post injury he still is #1 when it comes to calculation speed (espers anyway)

All i'm saying is more calculation ability means better and faster handling of vectors in Accelerators case, and we know he lost more than half of it after his injury.

Accelerator got "stronger" after his injury but not in the sense of greater calculating ability/raw power. he just learnt to use what he still had that much better with the new knowledge and world he found himself in.

if beginning of nt22 Accelerator fought a hypothetical version of himself without his injury, but would use his power appropriately like he learnt after his injury, the Accelerator we know would be totally f'd and have no chance of winning.

hence Pre injury accel should scale in entirety to his post injury state. I think having a variable x to y tier when serious should suffice, since he just jobs pre injury.

 

[Scrlk666777]

@Malox

You said that Accel's calculation ability was poor and that he couldn't do half the stuff that he could pre-headshot. That is what you said or at least it's what you have been making out.

"At that time"

What are you even trying to say here? What does this even mean? Taotei either has a better calculation ability than Accel or he doesn't. Period.

 

[Malox1696]

at the time i mean after they got the formula from the sisters and linked itself with 2 other robots, base he was already lvl 5 calculation power and accel was still recovering from his brain injury, so they came to a stand still, when they linked each other they could teleport accel easily but when accel isolated them he defeated each one, basically lvl5x2 > post brain injury accel in calculation power

 

[Scrlk666777]

Who said Accelerator had poor calculation ability? because that is not the case at all. Post injury he still is #1 when it comes to calculation speed (espers anyway)
All i'm saying is more calculation ability means better and faster handling of vectors in Accelerators case, and we know he lost more than half of it after his injury.

Accelerator got "stronger" after his injury but not in the sense of greater calculating ability/raw power. he just learnt to use what he still had that much better with the new knowledge and world he found himself in.

if beginning of nt22 Accelerator fought a hypothetical version of himself without his injury, but would use his power appropriately like he learnt after his injury, the Accelerator we know would be totally f'd and have no chance of winning.

hence Pre injury accel should scale in entirety to his post injury state. I think having a variable x to y tier should suffice, since he just jobs pre injury.

But that hyphothetical is just a hyphothetical. The fact is he didn't have magical knowledge, the Clonoth, Knowledge beyond the abyss, The 78 tarot cards, Qliphah and he also wasn't beyond aeons. Yes you are right if Accel with brain damage faced Accel without brain damage with both having the same magical knowledge as well as other stuff that Post-headshot Accel has learnt, then yes the latter would win.

But Pre-headshot Accel would get beaten by Post Head-Shot Accel due to various reasons.

 

[Malox1696]

yes but it's not trough raw power or durability, he could win by exploiting the amata trick or some weird non vectorial magic or wings, if he tried to brute force pre headhoot he would get rekt

 

[TIHYDDWBE]

the hypothetical is just easier way to make you understand that by pure stats alone, post injury accelerator is weaker than not injured accel who actually tries.

 

[Scrlk666777]

@Malox

No, he would not. Here you go again making out that Post-Headshot Accel is so poor he has a weak raw power and durability output. So I'm guessing him being able to life wipe the planet is poor raw power in your opinion. Being able to stop Coronzon's attack which is High 1-C is also poor in your opinion. If you had your way Post-Headshot Accel would be Tier 10-C.

 

[Malox1696]

i think u don't understand basically how esper power works , he would get rekt cause pre headshoot, having more calculation power, would just overwrite any changes to reality post heads shoot make to hit him with brute force by putting those change in his calculations basically ignoring his power, that's why in his manga accel can't reflect the teleportation done to him, cause combining 2 lvl 5 calculation power they bypass his reflection, alone the taioi just came to a stand still and still got rekt by accelerator while accel got just small cuts from the exchange

 

[Malox1696]

@Malox
No, he would not. Here you go again making out that Post-Headshot Accel is so poor he has a weak raw power and durability output. So I'm guessing him being able to life wipe the planet is poor raw power in your opinion. Being able to stop Coronzon's attack which is High 1-C is also poor in your opinio. If you had your way Post-Headshot Accel would be Tier 10-C.

Never said anything like that, and i think u don't understand, speaking by physic mechanic accel melee AP (punching and kicking) would scale with his opponent durability up to 1c thanks to the third law of motion already, that's why im saying he should have 1 c pushing power, his reflection would reflect the force that the object exercise on u when u push something, but he can't actually use it against a lower durability opponent has it would scale with him, even simpler apply local reflection to one part of his opponent body would damage it, although it would not really be destructive force

accel reality warping (his esper ability) is based on calculation, if someone makes better calculation counting the ones accel makes then he can nullify his powers, that's why pre headshoot accel would beat post if he doesn't use magic

 

[Scrlk666777]

@Malox

They never bypassed his reflection, they found a way around it which involved AOE teleportation, which doesn't interact with his vector sheild. It's the same reason he can't reflect an earth busting attack and Othinus destroying/warping the universe because both of these attack don't require actual interaction with his reflection.

Raw AP actually would most likely actually be the same as raw AP doesn't necessarily require you to have high calculations. Destroying the earth, for example, is easy. The only thing that Accel would have to calculate is how much force is needed to be able to destroy the earth. He can easily destroy a body is he wanted to, now and pre-headshot.

However this is easier than let's say rewriting the brain and borrowing Earth's energy to attack the WB. This is because other calculations have to be factored in as well.

Don't forget his calculation power is based on how much he can do rather than actual AP output.

By the way what do you mean by Pushing strength? Do you think that should be added in his AP or his lifting strength? Which would be immeasurable since Lifting stength goes by the Class system until you reach a certain level.

 

[Malox1696]

@Malox
They never bypassed his Reflection, they found a way around it which involved AOE teleportation, which doesn't interact with his vector sheild. It's the same reason he can't reflect an earth busting attack and Othinus destroying/warping the universe because both of these attack don't require actual interaction with his reflection.

Raw AP actually would most likely actually be the same as raw AP doesn't necessarily require you to have high calculations. Destroying the earth, for example, is easy. The only thing that Accel would have to calculate is how much force is needed to be able to destroy the earth. He can easily destroy a body is he wanted to, now and pre-headshot.

However this is easier than let's say rewriting the brain and borrowing Earth's energy to attack the WB. This is because other calculations have to be factored in as well.

By the way what do you mean by Pushing strength? Do you think that should be added in his AP or his lifting strength? Which would be immeasurable since Lifting stength goes by the Class system until you reach a certain level.

no they bypassed the shield, no aoe teleportation, in the first place the original esper power only worked on stuffed animal and is called asport, no aoe, it's well explained how they teleport him

as i said it's not really destructive power, it would just scale to his opponent durability as it works by the 3rd law of motion , and as already explained let's say u have such an heavy object that it push down on earth trough gravity with 1 c power (i know is impossible but take this as an example) accel would be able to reverse that force back up as it's the same as his reflection, same would be applied by pushing something as the force the object would apply to him would get reflected back

 

[Scrlk666777]

@ Malox

It was AOE but I'm dropping this. So please let's just leave it there, you have your opinion and I have mine. I don't want to keep going around in circles. This has nothing to do with anything anyway and we have already gotten completely off topic.

On the other thing.

So would that be 5-B, likely far higher, 1-C with reflection?

Do you think his AP should scale with his reflection?

 

[Malox1696]

no u are not dropping this https://s6.********.org/data/d8e7b66ce5ea6a40ed2b496d5c334b21/x8.png

it's clearly stated how they do it no aoe, it only works on things and 1 at time

it's more similar to a durability negation than raw AP as he can't use it at will, it would just scale for his melee not that it would kill as it would be pushing power, if he punches a 8b dura he would push with 8b but if he punched a 2 c it would push with 2c (but not penetrating just pushing)

 

[Scrlk666777]

The link is broken.

I'm going to get back to the original OP though as we've gone way off track. Upgrading Pre-headshot is a different discussion.

This is whether or not there should be two key's for Post head-shot Accel or just leaving it as it is and maybe just adding Post NT 22, next to the Post headshot base key.

The only reason this was brought up was because of confusion with other characters who had previously fought Accel, way before NT 22, but didn't get an upgrade.

 

[Malox1696]

here https://********.org/chapter/27266/8

all speed feat should scale tho, unless accel was holding back, for dura upgrade they should scale but again most fight he did before this were never about pure AP, kekinay DM works by strange law and gabriel was a mass of telesma so again they are strange

 

[Scrlk666777]

Accel tends to hold back quite a lot so it wouldn't surprise me.

It's also likely that in certain areas he wouldn't go extremely fast for various reasons

Actually in NT 1 he couldn't catch up to Silvercross because of Silvercross going through a tunnel and Accel not wanting to risk having the Network being cut off and him possibly being mince meat as a result. He was only going at 750m, or something around that anyway, at that time which we know he can go much faster.

 

[Malox1696]

kamachi forgets how much speed he gave to his characters, i really don't know if we should do as the author think or feats

 

[Accelerate420]

The way I interpret it is Accelerator can go as fast as he physically wants, up to max Rev. Since Index is knee deep in physics I assume he can't go SoL. However just because he can go this fast doesn't mean he's gonna be able to react properly since he's still human. Accelerator likely goes only around mach levels normally because his natural reactions lets him but if he goes any faster like rev and the like his eyes can't keep up without more processing power, but it doesn't really matter since he can just ram himself into whatever as fast as he can with rev-tier speeds. TL;DR Accelerator uses Mach speed normally for his reactions but any faster than that I don't think, in the book at least, in his current condition he has the reaction speed to perceive anything faster. Doesn't mean he can't go faster than Mach if he wanted to but he'd likely be moving blind so against fast moving opponents he figures it's better to go as fast as he can without tripping himself up and going overboard.

It's part of his combat routine to use as much force as necessary after all, that includes speed.

 

[Malox1696]

nah is max speed is still sub rel

 

[Accelerate420]

With how vectors work there's literally nothing stopping him from moving as fast as he wants aside from how SoL works.

 

[Scrlk666777]

@Malox I'll bring up the speed and AP thing on another CRT but I'll probably wait a few days. There are other minor stuff that I want to bring up not just with Accel but other minor things that was missed with other characters to.

But on Accel I'm going to bring up

Sound Manipulation

Gravity Manipulation (I'm not completely sure on this one but others think that it should be included in his abilities section)

Magic sense (I'm not quite sure what this would be called maybe just Enhanced senses).

Magic interference (This should apply to base and winged forms)

Junko needs to be brought up as there;s a chance she should be upgraded both AP and Dura wise.

I think there's some minor stuff with Aleister that needs to be added, I think only a couple of spells.

Now I'm going off topic.

But what do you prefer?

Pre-Headshot | Post-Headshot (Pre NT 22) | Post-headshot (Post NT 22) | Platinum wings.

or

Pre-headshot | Post Headshot (Post NT 22) | Black wings ! White Wings + Halo | Platinim wings

This is really what it comes down to

 

[Accelerate420]

Gravity should've been added ages ago tbh. Even in early OT it was brought up as something he has to allow himself to be taken by, implying he can manipulate gravity if he wanted to-- which he even does when he's hanging on buildings and such. There's no reason to think he can't use it if he himself says he has to let himself be taken by it.

I'd say the second line is best, Post-Headshot (Post NT22) is best.

 

[Scrlk666777]

I was going to add '''Light Manipulation '''as well but I'm not really sure on that one . Like Gravity he should be able to. I'll probably bring it up anyway.

 

[Malox1696]

With how vectors work there's literally nothing stopping him from moving as fast as he wants aside from how SoL works.

well no, as he either can't interact with magnitude directly (can't just multiply it to be more) or has very limited control over it

i lean with the first interpretation more as it makes more sense

 

[Accelerate420]

With light he'd be able to refract it around himself for psuedo invisibility. How useful that is I'm not sure, because i don't know if he'd even be able to see. He should be able to reflect specific areas on him to blind people with light though which is a fun thing to think about.

 

[Accelerate420]

With how vectors work there's literally nothing stopping him from moving as fast as he wants aside from how SoL works.

well no, as he either can't interact with magnitude directly (can't just multiply it to be more) or has very limited control over it
i lean with the first interpretation more as it makes more sense

If he can outsource enough energy to move at sub-rev there's nothing stopping him from going faster.

 

[Scrlk666777]

Accel420

Do you think light or at least limited light manipulation should be on there as well then?

I also agree about the speed if Accel can outsource enough energy to go at sub-rel speeds there is nothing stopping him going higher, except the obvious.

Also passive and active abilties are different. One doesn't require magnitude while the other can/does.

 

[Malox1696]

If he can outsource enough energy to move at sub-rev there's nothing stopping him from going faster.

well yes, there are the calculations stopping him for going faster as he need to outsource different vectors , it's not as easy as u think, even hama made him slip

 

[Scrlk666777]

If he can outsource enough energy to move at sub-rev there's nothing stopping him from going faster.

well yes, there are the calculations stopping him for going faster as he need to outsource different vectors , it's not as easy as u think, even hama made him slip

That wasn't a speed thing. Even the Flash has slipped on a banana before.

 

[Malox1696]

i mean that changing and gathering vector is not easy on the fly if they are many

 

[Scrlk666777]

I think you underestimate Accel way too much.

 

[Accelerate420]

Accel420
Do you think light or at least limited light manipulation should be on there as well then?

I also agree about the speed if Accel can outsource enough energy to go at sub-rel speeds there is nothing stopping him going higher, except the obvious.

Also passive and active abilties are different. One doesn't require magnitude while the other can/does.

Passive doesn't need magnitude but he can manually apply magnitude with vector change as far as I know. But yes, he should be able to go Rev but I think keeping it sub-rev for now is fine as it is. I think limited light should be a thing since the most he can do is reflect it at an opponent to blind them and I'm not too knowledgeable on what else he can do on it that won't gimp himself like invisibility.