About Infinite Zamasu and Zeno | AP and Speed

[ProudLearner]

AP:

Did Infinite Zamasu fused with the future time-line which contain all 12 universes before invading the present timeline or it was just Future U7 time-space?

If he did fused with all 12 universes, then why is he Low-2C instead of 2-C? Because the nigh-omnipresence page says "After his physical form was destroyed, Zamasu became an incorporeal being that extended himself across the entire future timeline."

Same question about Zeno:

Did he wipe out all future 12 universes or it was just future U7?

Speed:

Does Infinite Zamasu have At Least Massively FTL+ to Immeasurable Speed via spread? Because his spread made to present timeline.

Does Zeno have At Least Massively FTL+ to Immeasurable Speed via Ki Blast? Because Future Zeno AP justification says "Future Zen'ō effortlessly erased everything, including all 12 universes and the incorporeal Zamasu with a single ki blast"

 

[Arcker123]

Killing Infinite Zamasu is not a speed feat

 

[ProudLearner]

Killing Infinite Zamasu is not a speed feat

It is an attack speed feat though

 

[VinnyXD]

Killing Infinite Zamasu is not a speed feat

He still scale higher than Whis or GP. He's speed is outdated

 

[Arcker123]

He EE'd him though iirc

 

[ProudLearner]

Zeno current speed is reaction speed and not attack or travel speed.

He EE'd him though iirc

Nope.

It was a super explosive wave type ki attack that encompassed all 12 universes that took out IZ and made it to the present timeline.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Zeno current speed is reaction speed and not attack or travel speed.

Nope.

It was a super explosive wave type ki attack that encompassed all 12 universes that took out IZ and made it to the present timeline.

Yes that's just range, not immensurable speed.

 

[Chloroform]

What about Gowasu stating Zamasu becoming The Justice and Order?

 

[Thelastmlg]

Flowery talk, zamasu's justice and order was only for gods existing, so if he became the universe, it would happen, nothing points anything else and it is vague too.

 

[Chloroform]

Flowery talk, zamasu's justice and order was only for gods existing, so if he became the universe, it would happen, nothing points anything else and it is vague too.

But there was no "God" in the future Timeline or the Multiverse. If anything, Gowasu most likely meant for the entire jeopardized multiverse and its few bunch survivors. Angels dont count as Gods. Zeno didn't even interfered until Goku called him off so he should also be out of Zamasus equation. Which leaves the Multiverse itself other than Goku, Vegeta, Shin and Gowasu. That and its not like the latter was likely either....I mean he was sure enveloping the reality and he should have the magic to construct matter out of nothing as same as Shin and manipulate Minds of anyone as other lower non mortals and few kais can. Or just be Omnipresent and change those understandings of concepts ultimately supporting the claim anyway.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Yeah there was no gods there, except zamasu himself, and again, it is left vague by gowasu and zamasu never showed mind manipulation or anything, all of this supports him becoming one with the universe, nothing more.

 

[Chloroform]

Yeah there was no gods there, except zamasu himself, and again, it is left vague by gowasu and zamasu never showed mind manipulation or anything, all of this supports him becoming one with the universe, nothing more.

How can a clear statement be vague? Gowasu outright states he cast off his God form and trying to become Justice and Order which was followed by his previous statement of Zamasu trying to become the Universe.

And since he is a Supreme Kai Apprentice, its more than likely for him to have any power that other lower tier Kais like King Kai and all the others have. There for Mental Manipulation should also be in his range of abilities.

 

[Axxtentacle]

The meaning is vague, not the statement itself. It means effectively nothing unless it can be proven to mean something.

Additionally, we don’t give abilities that have never been shown unless they’re abilities that the race itself has.

 

[Chloroform]

The meaning is vague, not the statement itself. It means effectively nothing unless it can be proven to mean something.

Additionally, we don’t give abilities that have never been shown unless they’re abilities that the race itself has.

Except that particular statement had decisive meaning. And this not even the only support, Zamasu's whole Character was all about Justice and Order and how he urged to change them as how they were from the very beginning. And actually he comes from a Race called Shin Jin....all kinds of Kais belongs to this race and creating matter, telekinesis and other powers come naturally to them. Heres what Kanzenshu had about them to explain them briefly

"Planet Kai-Shin is located in an unknown part of the macrocosm, and is described as a larger version of the planets that each of the Kaiō live on. The planet is home to the gigantic “World Tree” (界樹; kaiju), whose fruit give birth to a race known as the Shin-jin (芯人), or “Core People”. The Shin-jin are neither male nor female, and their average lifespan is about 75,000 years. There are roughly 80 Shin-jin living on Planet Kai-Shin, and they spend their days living peacefully, studying various topics in a large castle. The Shin-jin are clairvoyant, have telepathic powers and the ability to materialize objects through mere thought. When one of the five Kaiō dies, a replacement is chosen from among the Shin-jin by lottery. Very rarely, the World Tree produces a golden fruit, from which a special type of Shin-jin is born, far more powerful and capable of living for millions of years. Only the Shin-jin born from the rare golden fruit are selected by lottery to serve as Kaiōshin. When Akira Toriyama first explained the existence of the Shin-jin in his interview in the Super Exciting Guide: Character Volume, it was left unclear whether they had randomly taken it upon themselves to becomes gods, organizing and overseeing the cosmos, or if they had been strategically placed within the macrocosm and provided some direction for governance from a higher authority. However, with the appearance of Zen’ō and the revelation of twelve similarly-structured universes, it is possible that Zen’ō or the Great Priest played a significant role in establishing the governing structure and hierarchy seen in each universe. As each universe is shown to have at least a Kaiōshin, it could potentially be assumed that each universe must at least also have their own Planet Kai-Shin inhabited by Shin-jin. While yet to be officially stated anywhere, it is possible that however, and whenever, the universes were created, that a “World Tree” was planted in each universe and the Shin-jin first born from these trees were provided instructions as to how their specific universe should be organized and governed."

 

[OneRhasstyBoi]

Initial Infinite Zamasu being at least Low 2-C seems fine to be honest, he literally became one with an entire space-time continuum of Future U7 and was ripping holes in Present U7 thus breaching the distance between 2 separated space-time continuums. It’s a borderline 2-C feat not only supported by both Whis and Beerus statements but also shown on screen. Here’s my proposal: At least Low 2-C, would eventually become 2-C for IZ and every Low 2-C in DBS scales to his Initial State.

 

[KageSakaDark]

I have checked the scans and it's not good enough. One statement and there is never any real implications that he had any influence on Justice and Order. For me, this statement describes Gowasu's interpretation on Zamasu's mind set, intentions but not his actions. It is far too speculative. Zamasu thinking becoming all of the universe could equal his goal of becoming justice and order.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Dude, he didn’t become the concept of order and justice. He didn’t do any kind of conceptual manipulation bs, him being stated to be that means nothing unless it can be definitively proven/shown to.

It doesn’t matter if their race has other abilities, if it’s not something any other Kai has shown, then you can’t just assume the rest of them have it. It’s like saying every Saiyan is capable of using Galick Gun because Vegeta can.

 

[Chloroform]

I have checked the scans and it's not good enough. One statement and there is never any real implications that he had any influence on Justice and Order. For me, this statement describes Gowasu's interpretation on Zamasu's mind set, intentions but not his actions. It is far too speculative. Zamasu thinking becoming all of the universe could equal his goal of becoming justice and order.

How is a decisive statement not good enough? One statement may there be but that is literally implying my claim. Becoming into something is literally an influence, thats the change of original essence. Gowasu is a Supreme Kai and well experienced at that unlike Universe 7's Present Supreme Kai who came into power in a premature state before being nurtured into a worthy one with sufficient knowledge. Also he wouldn't claim something that he wouldn't of sure and if you take first half of his word then dont ignore the rest either as they come from the same person. Its not necessary for Zamasu to become the Multiverse to be Justice and Order....he can simply be those and manipulate those concepts in his presence...i.e the Universe or Universes.

 

[KageSakaDark]

Hell, it doesn't even say that he was that, just that he was trying.

 

[Chloroform]

Dude, he didn’t become the concept of order and justice. He didn’t do any kind of conceptual manipulation bs, him being stated to be that means nothing unless it can be definitively proven/shown to.

It doesn’t matter if their race has other abilities, if it’s not something any other Kai has shown, then you can’t just assume the rest of them have it. It’s like saying every Saiyan is capable of using Galick Gun because Vegeta can.

His race has those abilities specifically. Saiyans dont specifically have Gallic Gun as their natural ability or technique unlike Kais who has those abilities by default. And by that I mean Creation and Telekinetic abilities. While Supreme Kais sublime at having those power on a greater higher scale.

Also Evil and Good are themselves a type of concept, Goku has been Interacting and neutralizing such concepts or "Evil" to be specific with Spirit Bomb technique created by a Normal tier Kai or King Kai himself which completely reformed Buu into Uub. So its not really unbelievable type of a claim that a Supreme Kai that went frenzy and taking over the universe can become the Justice and Order if wanted.

Hell, it doesn't even say that he was that, just that he was trying.

Trying doesnt means he cant. Especially when he devours the Universe. Prove he cant instead.

 

[Axxtentacle]

You still have to prove that’s an ability of the Kais, and not a character-specific ability.

You can’t definitively prove that Zamasu became the concept of justice and order, as he literally does nothing to prove such.

 

[Chloroform]

You still have to prove that’s an ability of the Kais, and not a character-specific ability.

You can’t definitively prove that Zamasu became the concept of justice and order, as he literally does nothing to prove such.

I dont know if you missed that part or not but I already put up a brief explanation of Shin Jin Race right above there...the Race of the Kais.
The Catalyst was Zamasu getting erased before he could have a chance, thus we have to work with what we got while he existed. And he has supportive abilities and statements. Thus I dont see how he cant be conceptual.

 

[Axxtentacle]

That literally doesn’t mean anything unless other Kais have shown that specific ability. All Kais having OTHER abilities doesn’t mean anything.

What abilities does Zamasu have that involve conceptual manipulation or even the concept of anything?

 

[Vietthai96]

What Gowasu said is a very flowery kind of speech, Zamasu don't have conceptual manip feat

 

[Thelastmlg]

We can't use a decisive statement because it ain't decisive, is flowery talk.

 

[Chloroform]

That literally doesn’t mean anything unless other Kais have shown that specific ability. All Kais having OTHER abilities doesn’t mean anything,

What abilities does Zamasu have that involve conceptual manipulation or even the concept of anything?

What part of "The Shin-jin are clairvoyant, have telepathic powers and the ability to materialize objects through mere thought." speaks for particular Kai instead of entire Shin Jin race?
Normal Kais can Interact with Good and Evil Concepts, can eliminate one from existence. Can create Techniques that can Interact with such concepts and function in a definite way like King Kais Spirit Bomb that does not essentially hurts anyone who is not Evil. So Zamasu who is a Gold Standard among the Normal Kais can easily and by default do such feats. Note that Judgement and Order are the concept that are directly tied with Good and Evils concepts. Thus the statement of Gowasu can be taken as a fact rather than Flowery language to amp up hype or shit.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Normal Kais have never “interacted with good and evil concepts”, tf?1 character has a technique that has the concept of good in it doesn’t mean all Kais can.

If the SPECIFIC ABILITY you’re talking about isn’t shown by any other kai, and isn’t involved in that statement, then that’s irrelevant. Mind Manip was mentioned earlier, but if that’s never shown to be a race-specific thing, you can’t assume it is.

There’s nothing proving what you’re claiming. And if there is, post the scan.

 

[Chloroform]

What Gowasu said is a very flowery kind of speech, Zamasu don't have conceptual manip feat

Even Normal Kai's can build up techniques like Genki Dama that interacts and functions on the basic premise of eliminating Evil while be neutral towards Good which are 2 Non Physical Concepts. That being said, A Statement cant be Flowery Language if its reasonable. Which is the case of Gowasu.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Even Normal Kai's can build up techniques like Genki Dama that interacts and functions on the basic premise of eliminating Evil while be neutral towards Good which are 2 Non Physical Concepts. That being said, A Statement cant be Flowery Language if its reasonable. Which is the case of Gowasu.

One Kai comes up with the Spirit Bomb, therefore all Kais can manipulate and interact with concepts. That’s illogical.

 

[Chloroform]

One Kai comes up with the Spirit Bomb, therefore all Kais can manipulate and interact with concepts. That’s illogical.

Tell me how can I attach scans here? I dont know how this site works

 

[Axxtentacle]

You click on the media icon, and you post a link to the image you’re trying to post there.

 

[Chloroform]

You click on the media icon, and you post a link to the image you’re trying to post there.

What if its in my PC?

 

[Axxtentacle]

Open the image in some app and copy a link from there.

 

[Chloroform]

One Kai comes up with the Spirit Bomb, therefore all Kais can manipulate and interact with concepts. That’s illogical.

Normal Kais have never “interacted with good and evil concepts”, tf?1 character has a technique that has the concept of good in it doesn’t mean all Kais can.

If the SPECIFIC ABILITY you’re talking about isn’t shown by any other kai, and isn’t involved in that statement, then that’s irrelevant. Mind Manip was mentioned earlier, but if that’s never shown to be a race-specific thing, you can’t assume it is.

There’s nothing proving what you’re claiming. And if there is, post the scan.

For knowing that, you'll need to know the relation between a Normal Kai born from a Normal World Tree Fruit with a Supreme Kai born from a Golden World Tree Fruit.(Look for the "Planet Kai Shin" section) As we see in Kanzenshuu, everyone among the "Shin Jin" or the Race of Kais gets Creation and Telekinesis Powers from birth. Its not something each individual gets for some specific reason but is common among everyone from Shin Jin race. And King Kai is a Normal Kai. A Kai who developed an ability that can do Conceptual Level interactions like only eliminating "Evil" while not harming "Good" at all cost or regardless of how strong or weak it is. The fact King Kai can develop such technique is an important thing to remember. Lets get back to Supreme Kais, these guys are basically Kais on Mega Steroids, which you can find in the same section of the provided link. Anything that a Normal Kai can do, a Supreme Kai can do immensely better than them. It doesnt means that Zamasu can just ****** use exactly the same thing built by some other Kai like King kai's Kaioken or Spirit Bomb out of his ass but it means he can do or create something similar but more Immensely massive in terms of effect. This justifies the fact Zamasu being able to change the basic premise of Good and Evil....Justice itself as a far inferior kai can build a technique which effects according to those concepts. Thus Gowasu, another Supreme Kai who is knowledgeable and had a full cycle of his reign, with experience unlike the Present Supreme Kai of U7 or Old Supreme Kai of U7 who was sealed off, is correct when he says that Zamasu trying to become the Justice and Order, since it is not out of his reach of Power, since a Normal Kai can interact and use the principals of Good and Evil with much less Power and effort. That and he was sure indeed becoming Omnipresent so its not impossible for him to control those concepts under his presence. Thus that statement of Gowasu is reasonable and cannot be taken as some random Flowery Language.

 

[Axxtentacle]

That proves nothing, though. That’s nothing but speculation. It’s literally just a technique that a Kai came up with, there’s nothing implying or stating it’s something all Kais can do or supreme Kais can do.

 

[Chloroform]

That proves nothing, though. That’s nothing but speculation. It’s literally just a technique that a Kai came up with, there’s nothing implying or stating it’s something all Kais can do or supreme Kais can do.

Not really. Zamasu never used a technique that a Kai came up with nor am I claiming that he uses anything from anyone else. I'm highlighting the fact that even an Ordinary Kai can pull out techniques and functions that eliminate concepts like evil while not harming good. It is only brought up to justify the fact Gowasu's claim was not outrageous and is reasonable.

 

[Axxtentacle]

It is just flowery talk though, there’s literally no reason that they can use it other than “they’re the same race”. There’s no reason to just assume that all other Kais can do this, when none other are shown to.

 

[Chloroform]

It is just flowery talk though, there’s literally no reason that they can use it other than “they’re the same race”. There’s no reason to just assume that all other Kais can do this, when none other are shown to.

Except Zamasu is clearly stated to be doing something similar though. You cant say none other are shown when we are debating about one doing and having statements of doing. Also your putting Zamasu in the same line with King Kai. Zamasu is better than King Kai because he was born from a Golden Fruit....so its not really a Random case we have here. Everyone among their race may cant do what King Kai did but its not applicable for Zamasu since he has more knowledge, importance and power...literally. Zamasu is a Supreme Kai from Birth and King Kai is not. This is the factor that changes the path of this discussion, Zamasu doesnt falls under the people who cant just do the same thing....like the Normal Kais. He is born special and fated to do better than Normal Kais in what they do by default. I hope you get the point.

 

[Axxtentacle]

That’s literally just speculation. He’s stated to “become order and justice” but never shows anything. If he had broken conceptual manipulation involving “order and justice”, we would’ve seen it. But he didn’t, he spread himself throughout the timeline and then got erased by Zeno.

His race is entirely irrelevant here.

 

[Chloroform]

That’s literally just speculation. He’s stated to “become order and justice” but never shows anything. If he had broken conceptual manipulation involving “order and justice”, we would’ve seen it. But he didn’t, he spread himself throughout the timeline and then got erased by Zeno.

His race is entirely irrelevant here.

He never shows anything previously because he was maintaining his form, God form as Gowasu states....which is literally the previous line that comes before Gowasu saying "and he is trying to become justice and order". Also not getting the chance to show and never showing are two different things. You cant simply see Order and Justice breaking apart...they are non physical concepts and the only way to realize that he is doing that is via statements that he has already.

His race is entirely relevant here as it explains where Zamasu stands and where King Kai is at....who built techniques that functions conceptually.