About Final Fantasy/RPG Resistancies in General

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

I think it should just be evaluated on a case by case basis. Obviously in a game like Final Fantasy where enemies are usually on the protagonists level of power it would make more sense to evaluate than a game like Pokémon where it is possible to strategically win a battle against the Creation Trio, Arceus, Darkrai, and Mewtwo by using a level 1 Magnemite holding Berry Juice.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Oh yeah, I agree with the case by case thing. All Pokemon having resistances too all of those haxed abilities is rather iffy, but protagonists and End-Game bosses of Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger, Golden Sun should have it at the very least should have them. Easter eggs and game glitches of course are obvious game mechanics. And I agree, there are more important projects to work with.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Dark

I still find it doubtful, since the vast majority of Final Fantasy characters don't have any reason or other feats to back up that resistance sans obtainable equipment that they're actually willing to use.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, I meant some of those equipment still grants them resistance to status effects among other things. Although, I will say status resistance would still be better than immunity; since that's generally NLF.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Medeus

That much is obvious.

 

[Agnaa]

@KinkiestSins

I agree that accepting this change would require lots of changes, but so would denying this change, or setting up new standards. I don't think that accepting this should spur a revision project, but should just be something that's kept in mind when new profiles are created, or when old ones are revised in the future.

@TheHadouCyberspaceWitch

Game mechanics is already something that's done on a case-by-case basis. The question in this thread seems to be whether resistances can be granted based off of gameplay feats in RPGs in cases with no contradictions.

 

[Antvasima]

The problem is that this would affect many different game franchises, and as such be very hard to overview and organise. In addition, it is very uncertain whether or not this should count as story convenience/game mechanics, rather than actual official powers.

We have other important revisions to handle, including updating the Narutoforums calculation links, inaccurate placements of immeasurable and infinite speed, Naruto, Bleach, Marvel Comics, etcetera. Multi-franchise revisions should preferably only be prioritised if they are certain and important.

 

[Dark649]

Unfortunatly some bosses loses their important resistances after a tranformation like Exdeath to Neo Exdeath, so i'm fine with resistance via equipment only.

 

[Agnaa]

@Dark649

In cases like that I'd say the resistance shouldn't be counted explicitly because it's contradictory, not because it's a boss resistance.

Or alternatively, since in that case it was a transformation and not just the boss randomly losing resistances, you could have the key for resistances be different for before/after transformation.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Agnaa

But it is an arbitrary boss resistance since 99% of the time they have no such feats to support it.

It's called Contractory Boss Immunity. Look it up.

 

[Agnaa]

@Reppuzan

The feat IS the gameplay.

Gameplay is counted for feats on this website, not just cutscenes or story statements.

 

[Amexim]

In my eyes, I don't really find it contradictory for RPG bosses immunities to be valid across "all bosses" because it's easily explainable by power scaling. If a Rock Golem in the beginning of a game is immune to instant death from a level 10 protagonist, then I feel like they should get immunity to Death spells, but not on the same levels as the Final Bosses, considering the protagonist is 10 times stronger than in the beginning of the game, and the Final Boss is far beyond the first boss. Why not scale resistances in this regard?

Not only that, but on "what we should and shouldn't count as a feat", when it comes to instant death, the only way we can reconcile the idea that a character with ID hasn't OHK'd the bosses is that they can't do it. Otherwise it's either the characters don't have instant death or PIS, and it's subjective to really say if this is PIS or not, since we have a good reason to assume they have instant death resistance in story (they might be too strong to instant kill or have defenses against it because, of course they would), but we also have a meta reason to disregard that (if I could instant kill every boss with Mudo, don't you think the game wouldn't be fun).

In my opinion, I think it's worse to assume PIS than to assume they have an immunity/resistance. Not just because it assumes the writers are incompetent, when really we have proof of a reason as to why they don't get OHK in the form of the game and basic "Oh, he's too powerful!" Logic. And if we deconstructed everything into "gameplay mechanics", which is an arbitrary line, we could destroy every game feat in existence.

If it would appease Rep... Can't we just put a "possibly" in front of the death resistance, and put this at the bottom of the list. As I said, do what is most effective and efficient. If this has to be the last thing ever done, so be it. It just should be done.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I still think that this seems very uncertain, and like hard to organise unnecessary work.

We should probably close this thread.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Amexim

It's not a matter of "appeasing" me. It's a matter of what's correct or not.

There is something wrong when 99% of bosses across all of RPG gaming have the exact same resistances despite the fact that there's no justification or other feats for having them.

I already said that I'm not moving on this point and The Everlasting is backing me on this. It's ridiculous to use something so blatantly game mechanics based as a justification for powers.

 

[Agnaa]

Would closing this thread mean no revision project to add resistances to RPG bosses, but also no revision project to REMOVE resistances from RPG bosses? Because if so, then I'd prefer that.

I mention this because I'm under the impression that some pages on this wiki have resistances justified in this way already.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Agnaa

No resistances will be added based on purely gameplay resistances with no corroborating feats at all.

Name these pages you're mentioning. I'm inclined to remove them if the resistances are purely based on game mechanics.

 

[Agnaa]

@Reppuzan

You keep failing to see how that argument can be applied to other things.

99% of all main characters across all shooters are skilled marksmen, despite the fact that there's almost never justification or other feats for them having this. This is blatantly a trope.

99% of all main characters in RPGs have certain abilities, such as elemental attacks and resistances, some form of magic, some form of healing item, some form of status ailment, etc. These are all tropes.

I could go on and on about all the tropes in gaming, television, and comic book history, but none of it matters, because we don't discount things if they're tropes, we discount them if they're contradictory.

I'd really wish that you were willing to move on this point. I'm willing to move on this point, but it would either be to the point of discounting anything based on tropes, or if you showed me that a vast majority of boss resistances were contradicted by the story of their games.

 

[AguilaR101]

I believe that should be resolved in specific content revision threads as there doesn't seem to be an agreement on what types of evidence back up gameplay feats.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Agnaa

Abilities are different from arbitrary resistances thrown on for pure gameplay value.

That's a false equivalency.

 

[Agnaa]

@Reppuzan

Why are abilities different from resistances?

The former decides what you can do to others, and the latter decides what you can take from others.

Also, you phrased your post in a VERY misleading way, both are "thrown on for pure gameplay value".

If you're going to say that "Abilities thrown on for pure gameplay value are different from resistances thrown on for pure gameplay value", you're going to need to demonstrate why, otherwise I won't be able to understand.

@Reppuzan

It's not always relevant to the story, do only gameplay features that are relevant to the story count? And a similar question, do boss resistances that are relevant to the story count?

Why does it being controllable by the player matter? Do feats by enemies not count?

Dude, most things in games are numerical values designed to make the game more fun.

I think it kinda sucks that you're going to be the sole arbiter of whether this gets decided or not, since others were still commenting about it, and people, including staff, seemed pretty split from what I saw, but ofc it's up to you and other staff and not me what happens to this thread.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Agnaa

One is an actual gameplay feature that is actually remotely relevant to the story and is controllable by the player.

The other is a numerical value designed to keep you from simply spamming a few abilities and thus actually playing through the game.

This is a false equivalency in any other sense and we're constantly going in circles.

I've already noted what changes I'm accepting and I'm not budging no matter what you do.

Closing this since it's a waste of our time.