About Final Fantasy/RPG Resistancies in General

[Reppuzan]

@Agnaa

More than half the time the Ribbon is considered a rare and valuable object and is crafted with hard-to-find materials in an explicitly magical setting where the laws of physics, space, and time are frequently turned upside down.

Your argument isn't helping.

 

[Agnaa]

@Reppuzan

Everything in a game serves the meaning of a game mechanic. Everything is to make things convenient.

Why does mario have powerups? So that the gameplay is more interesting.

Why can kirby absorb enemies? So that the gameplay is more interesting.

Jumping is a trope to make platformers more interesting than just walking to the right constantly.

I cannot possibly conceive of a line you could draw in this other than "It's game mechanics if it contradicts the story" that isn't utterly contrived and for your own convenience. Or at least, one that won't nerf the shit out of every video game character on this website.

 

[KinkiestSins]

@Kinkiest

Because the equipment is designed to have that explicit effects.

There is literally no reason why Kuja has those resistances other than to make the game fair.

You yourself admitted to bias here and we can't just cherry pick which abilities they should and should not get.

Well yeah, imo, we should give Kuja resistance to ALL in game things. Including Death Manip, Elemental Resistances, Hax etc.

Plus, not on this wiki and somewhat off topic, friends and I always tend to have vs debates with jrpg characters that include meta and story and story versions only.

Usually, Meta Versions of said characters include all possible resistances in game/battle etc. And yes, I understand this is impossible for our wiki to do.

But the discussion should consider having these resistances factored into a debate.

I mean, otherwise Kuja looks really weak in comparison to Zidane, who by the way I want to mention to everyone here.

Was brought to near death/killed by one spell.

I will let Matt come back with his piece, it is clear we arent going to agree. I will defer my judgement to him and saikou (if he comes back)

If they arent fine with it anymore, I will no longer push the issue. At this point, I will agree to disagree with repp here, and take my leave. Regardless though, @Antvasima.

If we accept this and you need help with organizing a revision, I can help since I know most of the JRPGs on here.

If we dont, then nothing happens and we can continue on with our lives lul.

 

[Agnaa]

@Agnaa
More than half the time the Ribbon is considered a rare and valuable object and is crafted with hard-to-find materials in an explicitly magical setting where the laws of physics, space, and time are frequently turned upside down.

Your argument isn't helping.

And so the other half of the time it shouldn't be counted towards people's resistances?

That was just an example, there are tons of other pieces of equipment that aren't mentioned in the story of the game that still have powers, and since they aren't mentioned, they have them for no reason.

If it being in a magical setting where the laws of physics, space, and time are frequently turned upside down makes stuff like that fine, why not certain enemies being resistant to death manipulation? We don't know why the bolt ring gives electricity resistance to its wearer, and it's definitely there just to serve the game mechanics and not the story, but we count it anyway, because it isn't contradictory.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Agnaa

I hate to lose my temper, but I am too damn tired and busy to argue ******* semantics with you.

There's a difference between having an ability as an integral part of a character's identity and actually available in their power set and a bunch of code designed to make a game fair with no actual importance to the story.

Kirby's abilities aren't game mechanics. Neither are Mario's or his powerups.

Throwing every goddamned resistance on every RPG character ever because a freaking slime or throwaway enemy can shrug off every hax in the game for no apparent reason other than to make you actually play the game the way it's meant to be played is absolutely game mechanics.

I don't have time for this shit.

@Kinkiest

There's a difference between having resistances arbitrarily and having them because of actual equipment.

Kuja does not have any equipment or abilities that would suddenly offer him all of these resistances. Neither do the vast majority of bosses throughout RPG history.

Last I checked, his last powerup was Trance Mode, and that doesn't suddenly give him resistance to every hax under the sun since every other character in the game that has Trance Mode doesn't get it.

There's no consistency here.

Again, I apologize for being coarse, but I'm really freaking tired of this and I really can't talk in circles against eight people at once.

 

[KinkiestSins]

Ant, it is clear this issue is divisive.

I think it might be best to hold off on this issue for now until we elaborate on specific verses this would effect.

As stated earlier, I am generally leaning in favor of this and there are some verses that use game mechanics to display weaknesses (Pokemon), those that display what kind of ability (Undertale) and those that build upon existing lore and thus grant weaknesses (Final Fantasy 7: Sephiroth absorbed the life stream and became resistant to most magic or Shin Megami Tensei/Persona: Certain Personas/Demons grant resistances that the world builds around)

And some that is more vague.

I think if we had to make base criteria, it should be:

Game Mechanics that Describe Weakness: Pokemon, this is fine. If Gengar is weak to psychic attacks, we can consider this fine if someone had similar powers via verse equalization.

Game Mechanics that Describe Actions in game/battle: Undertale uses SAVE and LOAD as powers, sans changing heart blue means he is affecting your soul etc)

Game Mechanics that Build Upon Lore: Shin Megami Tensei: Generally speaking, demons in smt that you fight in story have the same weakness if you were to recruit them as party members, there might be exceptions IDK smt that well but this should still apply.

If they dont follow any of these three rules, it is likely we should take with a grain of salt.

 

[Agnaa]

@Reppuzan

Why aren't Mario's powerups game mechanics? This is blatantly just an assertion. I'll grant you Kirby since his powers are frequently backed up in the story, but Mario's are almost entirely ignored and unjustified.

I don't particularly want to throw thousands of resistances on every RPG character, nor do I think staff should be tasked with doing that. I think someone passionate enough may decide to go and do that out of their own will. But I do not think that they should be removed from pages they're already on.

"for no apparent reason other than to make you actually play the game it's meant to be played" Dude this is making me seriously mad. All of mario's powerups exist for LITERALLY ZERO OTHER REASON than to make the game more entertainint. And yes, for some levels, to play the game as it's meant to be played (some levels can't be beaten without certain powerups).

I understand that you don't want to do this, I don't want to do this, but you're just picking and choosing what you think should count as resistances, based off of nothing. Do the game mechanics contradict the story? That's an actual basis for not counting them. The game not mentioning them explicitly and you thinking they're stupid isn't an actual basis. I think it's stupid for Mario to turn into a bee in super mario galaxy, and I'm pretty sure that's never addressed by the story, but I wouldn't dare say it shouldn't be counted on the wiki if it was relevant.

But I guess this all comes down to definition of game mechanics. Is it "stuff that contradicts what's shown in the story/what would occur during actual battles for the sake of gameplay" or is it "stuff that happens for the sake of gameplay and not story"? Because the latter is much more broad, and would require mass revisions of the wiki, were it to be accepted.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Kinkiest

I don't recall Sephiroth becoming resistant to magic in any way after absorbing the Lifestream. His clones were able to kill themselves with a combination of Flare and Comet in Advent Children.

 

[KinkiestSins]

@Kinkiest

I don't recall Sephiroth becoming resistant to magic in any way after absorbing the Lifestream. His clones were able to kill themselves with a combination of Flare and Comet in Advent Children.

Then SMT would be a better replacement in that case.

Or I guess Ouroboros. You couldnt even kill him until Lester weakened him by playing Matyr. Does the compromise seem fine to you? If so, we would deny most of the final fantasy villains these resistances minus maybe ones that can be explained via lore.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Kinkiest

Half the time games don't acknowledge that you have all this hax at your disposal, so I don't think it's fair to say, "Party couldn't kill Ouroboros with their instant death hax, nor did they try to use it against literally everyone else they fought, therefore they are immune."

I would prefer to use the SMT example where everyone is slinging hax left and right.

 

[KinkiestSins]

@Kinkiest

Half the time games don't acknowledge that you have all this hax at your disposal, so I don't think it's fair to say, "Party couldn't kill Ouroboros with their instant death hax, nor did they try to use it against literally everyone else they fought, therefore they are immune."

I would prefer to use the SMT example where everyone is slinging hax left and right.

But we consider protagonists like Cloud as having all of his Materia possible within reason, or say Bravely Default where you have all job asterisks at once so it seems fine to me. I will come back to this thread after I sleep and think it over. But I still think we should still say **** it to the line in general and just add resistances in game and out of game. Still willing to compromise, will help out if needed though.

 

[Agnaa]

@KinkiestSins

I think there would need to be a lot of changes if those guidelines are accepted.

Most equipment in games aren't explained by lore. Should the resistances from accessories (listed here) in ff7 not be counted?

Also, it isn't explained in the lore or shown in cutscenes that the lightning used by Vulkin moves at the speed of light, as it moves at a similar speed in the attack box as other attacks in the game, so wouldn't this nerf the speed of Frisk without excessive determination?

When you start bringing up questions like "Why should this enemy have death resistance? It isn't explained at all and is just so that the player can't walk over that enemy." I find it hard not to start asking questions like "Why should this enemy dodge at massively hypersonic+ speeds? It isn't explained at all and is just there so that the player can actually dodge the attack."

I'm sure other people would come up with other examples like that in the future, it seems like such a massive headache to change the policy on game mechanics.

 

[KinkiestSins]

@KinkiestSins

I think there would need to be a lot of changes if those guidelines are accepted.

Most equipment in games aren't explained by lore. Should the resistances from accessories (listed here) in ff7 not be counted?

Also, it isn't explained in the lore or shown in cutscenes that the lightning used by Vulkin moves at the speed of light, as it moves at a similar speed in the attack box as other attacks in the game, so wouldn't this nerf the speed of Frisk without excessive determination?

When you start bringing up questions like "Why should this enemy have death resistance? It isn't explained at all and is just so that the player can't walk over that enemy." I find it hard not to start asking questions like "Why should this enemy dodge at massively hypersonic+ speeds? It isn't explained at all and is just there so that the player can actually dodge the attack."

I'm sure other people would come up with other examples like that in the future, it seems like such a massive headache to change the policy on game mechanics.

Valid points and tbh, while I think game mechanics are valuable for guaging power, I wont go out of my way to say one way or the other.

This debate will literally never end, since it is the most opinionated topic you can consider on here. Finding out a characters power, speed, ap in a comic, tv show or movie? Easy. With calcs? Definitive Deciding if Ultemecia would survive a death spell to the face based on in game resistances? Opinion.

And that is kinda why I am not going all debating in semantics.

We have some opinions on here we accept as fact say OBD does not (4-A Luke comes to mind, he is only moon level on OBD)

 

[Agnaa]

That's why I think the best thing to do isn't to draw the line at "My opinion is that that's stupid", but at "It is factually demonstrable that this is contradictory".

 

[Reppuzan]

@Kinkiest

But we're making assumptions.

I'll admit that I used similar evidence to back the resistances of the Royal Knights... but that's AFTER they have a history of over a dozen cases of resisting or surviving hax.

It's best that we stick with Occam's Razor.

@Agnaa

The equipment is obtainable and usable by the characters and is made out of magical materials. There's no reason why we wouldn't use them on a profile if it's within their bounds to use it (we do it with Link after all).

Bosses don't have that excuse as they suddenly gain these immunities out of the blue. They're for plot and gameplay purposes, nothing more.

Calcs and resistance feats are an entirely different ballgame to resistance feats and they aren't a fair comparison.

 

[Agnaa]

@Reppuzan

What do you mean by "suddenly gain these immunities out of the blue"?

If a boss has an immunity one battle that they don't have in other battles, and it isn't explained by the plot, I would agree that that should not be counted.

Howver, if a boss has an immunity consistently, then I don't see what their problem is. You've already conceded that since there are magical materials in the world, immunities aren't impossible. We don't know what the bosses have done to get those immunities, and I don't think we need to, unless it's inconsistent or contradictory.

Also, I don't see what the equipment being "obtainable and usable" has to do with whether it should be counted or not.

 

[Kaltias]

While i'm mostly neutral about this, i'll say that. Is it really that much of a stretch to say that [insert MC here] who is fighting [insert villain here] to save te planet/galaxy/universe/multiverse would try at least once the spell that causes the opponent to drop dead on the spot?

 

[Reppuzan]

@Kaltias

The problem is that the plot of these games tends to act as if the player doesn't have access to these spells even when they do in order to actually tell a story.

I'd only use that excuse if there are other feats to corroborate it, since otherwise we're leaping to conclusions.

 

[Kaltias]

I do agree that having a statement that corroborate it is the ideal scenario (Akro being unkillable to the point where sealing him is the only option and nobody even consider the idea of killing him, for example).

But we shouldn't automatically label it as game mechanichs, even if the statement isn't present.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Kaltias

When it's a ubiquitous setting across damn nearly every RPG in existence, then I'm going to label it game mechanics.

Seriously, look up the resistance sheet for any remotely important boss in the history of Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Fire Emblem, or whatever other RPG.

It's a trope to force you to play a certain way. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Agnaa]

@Reppuzan

Just because it's a trope, doesn't mean it's a game mechanic.

Nearly every single RPG in existence has spells. Nearly every single RPG in existence has items. Nearly every single RPG has items that give resistances to statuses.

I cannot comprehend how you decide to draw the line at "bosses having resistances" and not any of the other tropes.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Agnaa

There's a difference between something that's shoehorned in and something that's actually part of the story.

Abilities and powers (or at least their existence, if not the character's usage of them) are acknowledged within the story, random boss immunities without story explanation aren't.

If we run this logic, then we'll be editing thousands of profiles over "boss immunities" that shouldn't exist because once more, they're game mechanics designed to make the game fair and are not applicable to any other part of it.

Just drop this, we're going in circles and it's never going to end and I have too much on my plate to deal with to be arguing this with you.

 

[AguilaR101]

What about optional powerups that you pick up along the way, do we assume boss get resistances to every single thing in your equipment that isn't even required for the story to progress?

Imo resistances should only be granted if 1-there are explicit showings of them resisting the ability outside of gameplay 2-it makes sense for a character to have them, ie: a time based spell not working on a character with time based powers is perfectly logical. 3-if there is a statement about a character with abilities aknowledged by the narrative being unable to defeat another.

 

[Agnaa]

@Reppuzan

Equipment resistances are shoehorned in. Equipment resistances aren't part of the story. Most aren't acknowledged in the story.

Like I said earlier, I don't think we, or staff, should go out of their way to edit profiles to add those boss immunities, but I also think that having them is something that's perfectly valid.

But similarly, I don't think we should go out of our way to remove them from profiles.

It really seems like your argument is "If it isn't part of the story, then it doesn't count" but then why do all of mario's transofmations count? Because they're kind of unique within their genre?

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to say you're right when you're wrong just because you've got a lot on your plate IRL. If you don't want to discuss this with me, that's perfectly fine. I won't harass you or track you down to get a response. But I don't want there to be no discussion just because you don't feel like it.

@AguilaR101

I'd say yes, since there isn't any story reason for them not to be counted. Powerups that aren't required to beat mario games are still counted, right?

I think resistances should be granted if there are explicit showings of them resisting the ability which aren't contradictory. If it conflicts with gameplay, the weaker assumption is taken, and if it conflicts with story, the story assumption is taken.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Agnaa

You keep using the phrase "isn't contradictory". Contradictory with what? These resistances spontaneously appear out of nowhere for no reason but to challenge the player.

I am not arguing with further.

 

[Agnaa]

@Reppuzan

Contradictory with either the gameplay or the story.

For example, an enemy which has a resistance for one battle, but not for another battle, with no plot justification (justifications including new technology, new form, etc). Or for another example, if an enemy has a resistance to a certain ability during battle, but is demonstrated to not have that resistance during the story or a cutscene.

How does them """spontaneously appearing out of nowhere""" (they're always there on the bosses, why is this at all spontaneous?) for no reason mean they shouldn't be counted? Do we need to know the author's intent on everything and whether something's inclusion had some deeper meaning, or was just tossed in there for no particular reason?

Stuff like this is why I bring up Vulkan giving Frisk their speed. Do we know that the reason for why Toby Fox gave Vulkan a lightning attack was to demonstrate how quickly Frisk can dodge, or was it just because it looked cool? Going back to Final Fantasy, it could be argued that the only reason why Sephiroth's supernova attack destroys part of the solar system is to give an epic feeling to the battle. How is "make the battle feel epic" okay for a feat, but "challenge the player" isn't? Both are solely to serve the gameplay and not the story.

I understand that you're not arguing with me further, this response serves to demonstrate to others reading this thread a contrary opinion to yours.

 

[Antvasima]

I am leaning towards agreeing with Reppuzan.

Perhaps we should close this discussion?

 

[KinkiestSins]

I am leaning towards agreeing with Reppuzan.

Perhaps we should close this discussion?

I can care less. But Matt and Dark might have something to say. This is an issue we honestly seem to be okay with based on genre.

We accept powerups from side scrollers but they are basically game mechanics. Why not rpgs? Minus the fact they are not the same genre. I would keep it open, but if it gets out of hand I trust your judgement. It was highlighted and it is too controversial to close now.

In agreement: Matt, Saikou, Dark, Agnaa and DarkAnine. In disagreement: Everlasting, Reppuzan, Antvasim, Aguilla Neutral: Kaltias, Me (Neutral in implementation or not, but my opinion leans to Matt's)

Idk about Cal's thoughts, but I think he is either neutral or he favors it, considering he handles pokeverse the sameish way. Edit: You can close this and make one yourself, make it staff only thread or something along those lines. Either way, just closing it when this controversial is not good idea imo..

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with Matt and Dark649

 

[AguilaR101]

I'm pretty sure sheer cold (Absolute Zero), roar of time, spacial rend and all the broken stuff from legendaries not outright murdering every pokemon and only making them faint is pure game mechanics, I disagree with granting resistances solely based on gameplay with nothing else to back it up.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

I'm actually agreeing with rep, like for some yeah, like final bosses, chances are they resist shit like kefka . Wouldnt make sense if the protagonists could just go nah you're dead .

But generic enemy or obscure boss? Unless, stated, implied or makes sense it's probably gameplay.

 

[Agnaa]

@AguilaR101

Of course, those are game mechanics since they are contradictory. I would not advocate for resistances to be added because of those moves specifically because of that reason.

Why do you only disagree with granting resistances based solely on gameplay, and nothing else?

Disregarding other feats because they're based solely on gameplay wouldn't generally be accepted as sound reasoning for various other feats, such as abilities and stats, but resistances seem to be this weird mental block with some people, where a few contradictions or strange conclusions throw people off from accepting any at all.

When I first heard that Frisk, and from that many other undertale characters, were classified as massively hypersonic, I was shocked. Toriel is certainly shown to run quickly but not THAT quickly. While it seems unintuitive and isn't demonstrated in the story (with the exception of Napstablook, a ghost), the reasoning still seemed based on non-contradictory evidence.

imo it doesn't matter if adding resistances looks unintuitive, or if characters only have those properties because of tropes, because we accept a lot of things that are unintuitive or tropes.

@Antvasima

I think there's more room for discussion to be had here.

 

[PaChi2]

@Agnaa, you should tone down a bit, please.

 

[Dark649]

PaChi2 is right.

 

[KinkiestSins]

Well, @Matt and Saikou Do you still think revisions our necessary? I think it is split 50/50 at this point.

 

[Amexim]

Why don't we put it to a vote? Making the argument that it would be too taxing to rework many pages kinda defeats the purpose of this site. It exists to give the most accurate information about characters' abilities as possible, and if the work load is massive, then you should either admit that the site isn't credible or just slog through it with as much efficiency as possible, even if it takes years. I don't think it's fair to shut arguments down and refuse to change things that don't make sense if one of the reasons are "it's too much work". Then, if that's how things are done, then content revision, rule discussions, a bunch of stuff should be staff only.

 

[Agnaa]

@Amexim

The reason why I think it's too much work, is because it's not really important. Those resistances won't be relevant very often, and if someone wants to make a thread where it is relevant, they can add it in then.

Why does importance matter? Because there are other much more important matters that need attending on this wiki.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Amexim

This is a thread about powers. It isn't about what everyone thinks is right, but what is right. Popularity votes for or against this topic wouldn't be productive.

 

[Antvasima]

Agnaa is correct about that everything is a matter of priority. We are doing our best, but have to be realistic about what is more or less important.

 

[KinkiestSins]

Agnaa is correct about that everything is a matter of priority. We are doing our best, but have to be realistic about what is more or less important.

I used to share Agnaas point of view, but the truth is that our wiki is growing. If we accept this change, we would have to change tens of profiles. Our priorities should be focused on the naruto forum calcs for now. Especially since time is valuable, and out of all of the changes this wiki NEEDS. This is not one of them (this is coming from someone who approves the changes)