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Turn-based combat can only be explained through game mechanics. Resistances can be explained by... you know, resistances.
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About Final Fantasy/RPG Resistancies in General
- Thread starter Dark649
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@Dragon
That doesn't make it any better.
@Saikou
Bosses being immune to certain stuff with no rhyme or reason to ensure they're still hard is a very obvious game mechanic.
That doesn't make it any better.
@Saikou
Bosses being immune to certain stuff with no rhyme or reason to ensure they're still hard is a very obvious game mechanic.
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They can also be explained by the more obvious reason: fairness.Matthew Schroeder said:
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No it isn't. Things done for balance =\= instant game mechanic, unless it's contradictory.
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Tell me. What's the actual reason a vast majority of bosses would have those resistances other than preventing you from one-shotting them?
I see absolutely no reason to include those resistances and vehemently refuse doing so.
I see absolutely no reason to include those resistances and vehemently refuse doing so.
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They having those resistances? You are basically saying that "It makes no sense for them to have these powers!"
Which is argument from disbelief.
Which is argument from disbelief.
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Luck. Only mainly end-game bosses in Golden Sun have 40 Luck, and the players can have their own players granted said resistances by boosting their own Luck stats to 40.
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It's not that it makes no sense, it's that there's literally no other reason behind it besides obvious game balance.
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You could use this same argument to discard spells and attacks which the characters don't use by obligation in-story, same with equipment. Except that is obviously bullshit.
Why is it acceptable when it comes to those but not resistances?
Why is it acceptable when it comes to those but not resistances?
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Because, again, this is clearly just there to make you not one-shot every boss by just spamming Death or whatever. That comparison doesn't work.
I remain unchanged in my refusal to include these.
I remain unchanged in my refusal to include these.
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There is no reasons behind 80% of everything that happens in games beside game mechanic. Yet it still happen.
The line between "It makes sense so we add it" and "It makes no sense so we don't add it" is so thin, subjective and arbitrary that it may as well not exist.
The line between "It makes sense so we add it" and "It makes no sense so we don't add it" is so thin, subjective and arbitrary that it may as well not exist.
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"There is no reasons behind 80% of everything that happens in games beside game mechanic."
Such as?
Such as?
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I think PaChi, Dark649 and Matt make sense here.
Might have trouble keeping up because tired, but some game mechanics, especially in final fantasy, have you able to kill undead with a life spell. If Kuja cant be killed with OHK in game, it should translate to resistance in my mind.
Might have trouble keeping up because tired, but some game mechanics, especially in final fantasy, have you able to kill undead with a life spell. If Kuja cant be killed with OHK in game, it should translate to resistance in my mind.
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I would first like to say I am biased, but ehh.Reppuzan said:
Anyway. Whenever I see Kuja have resistances to instant death in game, which mind you is something I take with cautious optimism, I tend to think along the following ideas.
A. Kuja would probably not die if you tried to kill with Odin or Death. B. This is game mechanics.
But my problem that 'it is just game mechanics' argument is two fold.
First fold is that creates this narrative of PIS, which i feel that if say Vivi really wanted Kuja to die, it would make some sense for him try to instantly kill Kuja.
But he cant. Which Matt I think sums it up best.
"Well, yeah. But it's still a feat. Arguing that it's just game mechanics doesn't change the fact that Cloud could try to use an Instant Death Spell on Sephiroth and that he wouldn't drop dead as a result. It's a legit thing."
I disagree with Matt on certain issues via SMT, but he is on point here.
If say, someone tried to instantly kill Yaldoboath from Persona 5 and he survived just fine, which by the way is explained entirely by game mechanics then I say we should just say **** it to the imaginary line in place and have, within reason to allow it.
Persona and SMT are stronger cases admitedly, since some resistances can be explained via in game lore. Final Fantasy is a tough sell.
But in my mind, even setting aside 'Oh, we can let it slide for undead monsters but god forbid Kuja or Ultemecia shouldnt have resistance to death manipulation.', we really shouldnt say yes to some and no to others.
This is a one way street. It is either we accept all or none. I appreciate nuance and some limitations in place, but it is clear some verses are meta enough to play with this idea entirely (Undertale, Bravely Default and Pokemon come to mind) that use game mechanics to explain resistances Plus, I dont find it argumentive friendly to say. "Kuja can still get one shotted with other death spell users from final fantasy' That comes off as to me as cherry picking.
Because at this point, for my favorite gaming verse as we speak.
Kuja has half the line of text in place that Zidane has, and that is a problem.
I say **** it with the line entirely. Probably aint a popular opinion, but if you cant argue for character a winning against character b if this gets accepted because 'Ultemecia is resistant to death manipulation' then I think the argument might be flawed in the first place.
Or playing devils advocate even now, if we accept this, I know praxtically every JRPG on here would be changed because of this.
I posit the following, is forgetting about the line entirely for the characters we root for like Tiz against Ouroboros but enforcing it for boss characters via in game programming as 'just game mechanics' a good idea for the wiki?
Although to be fair, metafictional characters that use in game mechanics like Chara or Providence from BS, have much stronger of an argument that we can let this slide compared to Final Fantasy characters.
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@Kinkiest
You're not getting my point.
The Raise spell has repeatedly had lore behind it that it insta-kills undead by exorcising them.
Kuja doesn't have any story-related reason for having resistance to death.
There's a difference between having it via an ability or piece of equipment (meaning that it has an explanation) over just having it randomly with no reference in any part of the lore, story, or bestiary entry.
You're cherry-picking to suit a particular viewpoint.
You're not getting my point.
The Raise spell has repeatedly had lore behind it that it insta-kills undead by exorcising them.
Kuja doesn't have any story-related reason for having resistance to death.
There's a difference between having it via an ability or piece of equipment (meaning that it has an explanation) over just having it randomly with no reference in any part of the lore, story, or bestiary entry.
You're cherry-picking to suit a particular viewpoint.
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Probably As stated above, I am biased. If this gets implemented, cool. Not so? Also cool. If people agree with me? Cool. You get the idea.Reppuzan said:
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I generally agree with Saikou and Matt on this. Unless the resistances are contradicted in the story proper, they should be fine. Just discarding them as game mechanics doesn't make sense to me.
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Basically this.Darkanine said:
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Don't get me wrong, in some cases Game Mechanics do take play.
For instance, in Final Fantasy X you can break free of your character's class and learn every skill of every class in the game with sufficient grinding. That is obviously Game Mechanics. There's no reason for Yuna to learn Aaron's attacks.
But a boss resisting an Instant Death spell is a feat.
For instance, in Final Fantasy X you can break free of your character's class and learn every skill of every class in the game with sufficient grinding. That is obviously Game Mechanics. There's no reason for Yuna to learn Aaron's attacks.
But a boss resisting an Instant Death spell is a feat.
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Also this, this makes sense to me.Matthew Schroeder said:
At least this elaboration.
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Thought I should throw this in there: in a lot of these games/game worlds insta-kill techniques are pretty commonplace (especially in SMT). First, you'd have to either be insanely lucky or have some resistance to death manipulation if you wanted to become strong there without dying. Second, you would have to be a bit of a fool to trust someone who couldn't even survive these commonplace abilities in a fight.
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The Everlasting said:
99% of the powerups in Mario have no reason behind them story-wise, only existing to make the gameplay more interesting.
I'm on the side that death resistance should be counted unless it's contradicted by the story. What reason do fodder bosses have for resisting death? Well, the same reason that they have for hitting harder than normal enemies; they're stronger, and those instant-death mechanics work on some other type of durability than conventional durability, which bosses are stronger in.
While bosses hit harder than normal enemies, and this doesn't often serve a story-wise purpose, their attacks being stronger aren't disregarded because of that.
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I am uncertain either way here.
Reppuzan does have a point that if there is no in-story reason for a resistance other than game mechanics, perhaps we should count it like that.
In addition, it does not seem worth the effort to start a very time-consuming wiki revision project for something as comparatively trivial as this, when we have more important ones lined up to deal with.
On the other hand, an explicit feat is an explicit feat, and it is likely unfair to disregard it.
Reppuzan does have a point that if there is no in-story reason for a resistance other than game mechanics, perhaps we should count it like that.
In addition, it does not seem worth the effort to start a very time-consuming wiki revision project for something as comparatively trivial as this, when we have more important ones lined up to deal with.
On the other hand, an explicit feat is an explicit feat, and it is likely unfair to disregard it.
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@Ant
The thing is that it's not a feat. It's a trope.
99% of RPG Bosses have these resistances to keep the players from abusing hax spells to render the games a non-challenge.
Case i point, nearly every final boss i the history of Final Fantasy up to Final Fantasy XIII have it.
Even pathetically weak bosses you can't even lose to like Yu Yevo and bosses you're not supposed to even kill have it.
These aren't feats in the slightest.
The thing is that it's not a feat. It's a trope.
99% of RPG Bosses have these resistances to keep the players from abusing hax spells to render the games a non-challenge.
Case i point, nearly every final boss i the history of Final Fantasy up to Final Fantasy XIII have it.
Even pathetically weak bosses you can't even lose to like Yu Yevo and bosses you're not supposed to even kill have it.
These aren't feats in the slightest.
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If there is a contradiction in the main story, then sure we can chalk it up to game mechanics.Reppuzan said:
But if we have nothing else to go off of, or it is super meta, then we should take these in game 'mechanics' seriously.
Seems like the best of both worlds.
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@Kinkiest
When a golem made out of wood has resistance to transmutation for no apparent reason other than being a "boss" despite being useless to the plot, it's just game mechanics.
And no, you can't chock it up to high Magic Resistance either since golems have pathetically weak magic resistance and only attack with physical attacks.
I'm not compromising on this.
These aren't feats, it's pure game mechanics that we really should not apply to the wiki.
When a golem made out of wood has resistance to transmutation for no apparent reason other than being a "boss" despite being useless to the plot, it's just game mechanics.
And no, you can't chock it up to high Magic Resistance either since golems have pathetically weak magic resistance and only attack with physical attacks.
I'm not compromising on this.
These aren't feats, it's pure game mechanics that we really should not apply to the wiki.
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I agree that spamming resistances in virtually every single RPG boss profile in this wiki seems unwise, but where exactly should we draw the line between game mechanics and valid abilities in this case?
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@Antvasima
I don't know if there's a line in the sand I can draw because I haven't played every RPG in existence.
Elemental resistances should be accepted virtually always.
But hax resistances need to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis and should probably only be accepted if they have tanked similar abilities in the story or if it's at least implied that they could.
I don't know if there's a line in the sand I can draw because I haven't played every RPG in existence.
Elemental resistances should be accepted virtually always.
But hax resistances need to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis and should probably only be accepted if they have tanked similar abilities in the story or if it's at least implied that they could.
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But sometime Ant, there is no distinction between the two and the 'line' does not exist. If the character has nothing else to go off of minus in game mechanics, and it does not contradict anything prior hinted at the story, I dont see an issue.Antvasima said:
So we accept Zidane having in game abilities, and forget about Kuja's in game resistances? I dont see this still as a one ways street and it is clear that the distinction at this point in personal intrepatation.
I think I will go with the simplest answer and state that if a character in a game has an ability iirc and cant one shot some villain with this skill, this translates to resistance.
This translates closer to lore in Undertale or SMT, where the former uses game mechanics to describe the ability taking place, or in SMT where the Demons/Angels have certain resistances to elements, ohks etc and that is visible to the player.
Admitedly again, Final Fantasy is a grey area since it does none of these. (Maybe I can pull something out from one game, but otherwise I dont think this applies as smoothly as it does with other games)
I think Matt and Repp can come up with a solution together since they are the big two in disagreement if my point still doesnt statisfy or change minds.
is there a way we can consider a compromise by allowing it if no other material is present to debunk it? Edit: I am open to any compromise at this point, not just this one.
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@Reppuzan Just because something is in there for convenience of the game, doesn't mean it's game mechanics.
It's convenient for how various pieces of media play out to have the final enemy be the strongest. Does that mean that some things being super strong should ONLY be counted if there's a plot reason for it, and be considered game mechanics otherwise?
We don't know the reason why the Wood Golem has resistance to death manipulation, but it does, and it doesn't contradict the plot, so it should be counted.
Granted, I don't think this is very important in the grand scheme of things, it should probably be on the absolute bottom of the queue for wiki revision projects. But it shouldn't be discounted just because it's a trope.
It's convenient for how various pieces of media play out to have the final enemy be the strongest. Does that mean that some things being super strong should ONLY be counted if there's a plot reason for it, and be considered game mechanics otherwise?
We don't know the reason why the Wood Golem has resistance to death manipulation, but it does, and it doesn't contradict the plot, so it should be counted.
Granted, I don't think this is very important in the grand scheme of things, it should probably be on the absolute bottom of the queue for wiki revision projects. But it shouldn't be discounted just because it's a trope.
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@Kinkiest
Because the equipment is designed to have that explicit effects.
There is literally no reason why Kuja has those resistances other than to make the game fair.
You yourself admitted to bias here and we can't just cherry pick which abilities they should and should not get.
Because the equipment is designed to have that explicit effects.
There is literally no reason why Kuja has those resistances other than to make the game fair.
You yourself admitted to bias here and we can't just cherry pick which abilities they should and should not get.
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@Reppuzan
There's also no reason why equipment gives the effect that it does.
It is NEVER explained in the plot of FF7 why a bloody ribbon gives resistances to poison, but we don't discount it just because "equipment is a game mechanic and equipment that gives resistances is a trope".
There's also no reason why equipment gives the effect that it does.
It is NEVER explained in the plot of FF7 why a bloody ribbon gives resistances to poison, but we don't discount it just because "equipment is a game mechanic and equipment that gives resistances is a trope".
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@Agnaa
That's literally the definition of game mechanics. They're there to make things convenient for the game developers so that the players won't just stick to spamming Death, Stone, Toad, or any other hax spell in every fight instead of actually strategize to beat them.
It's not just the strongest enemies, even some of the weakest bosses in RPG history in fights that are scripted so that it's literally impossible to lose have these resistances because the developers want the players to fight the bosses in a particular way.
It's a trope, not an ability. We list abilities here, not tropes.
That's literally the definition of game mechanics. They're there to make things convenient for the game developers so that the players won't just stick to spamming Death, Stone, Toad, or any other hax spell in every fight instead of actually strategize to beat them.
It's not just the strongest enemies, even some of the weakest bosses in RPG history in fights that are scripted so that it's literally impossible to lose have these resistances because the developers want the players to fight the bosses in a particular way.
It's a trope, not an ability. We list abilities here, not tropes.
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