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This didn't have to be highlighted.
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A thing about mind hax
- Thread starter The_real_cal_howard
- Start date
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- Tags
- mind manipulation range
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it really didnt.
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I would say it once and once only, if the mind hax was said to be amplified by the object then I would agree. But in Madara's case all it as said to ever do is increase its range.
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- Thread starter
- #85
What do you think, Matt?
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Exactly.YungManzi said:
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Why is Mind hax becoming such an issue? Only now is it becoming this massive ordeal.
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It was a while back but for a different reason, it is now again because of somethign to do with Star wars and now suddenly with Madara vs Mewtwo I guess.
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it's gone mainstream OvO
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.....So I'm not going to say what I really want to say about how this whole ordeal sounds.....
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IMO. We should base mind hax on what it can actually do and not how many it can effect.
Example: One character can control 1,000,000 people's minds (pure and simple mind control which he can use to control a person's actions)
The second character can control minds, memories, perception, dreams, emotions, thoughts, She can also destroy minds and trap people in illusionary worlds within their own minds....but she can only use it on one person at a time.
I think that Character 1 < Character 2 because the second character can control much more of a person's mind....At least I think that's the case when talking about who would have more influence over a single person's mind (which also would bleeds into resistances characters would have to said mind manipulation).
TLDR: Quality > Quantity (When talking about influencing a single person's mind)
Example: One character can control 1,000,000 people's minds (pure and simple mind control which he can use to control a person's actions)
The second character can control minds, memories, perception, dreams, emotions, thoughts, She can also destroy minds and trap people in illusionary worlds within their own minds....but she can only use it on one person at a time.
I think that Character 1 < Character 2 because the second character can control much more of a person's mind....At least I think that's the case when talking about who would have more influence over a single person's mind (which also would bleeds into resistances characters would have to said mind manipulation).
TLDR: Quality > Quantity (When talking about influencing a single person's mind)
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Here we go again....
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I agree with this Edit: Sorry bout thatYungManzi said:
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Great this exact same argument again.....
Don't quote walls of text plz
Don't quote walls of text plz
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Which makes sense.
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I have a felling of deja vu,and i don't like it.
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RIP Methuselah no longer best 3-D mindhax ovo
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Also, Illusions and Emotions are not Mind Manipulation, they're illusion creation and empathetic Manipulation, so that kinda goes against Mindhax....
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@Garg
Perception Manipulation(not illusion in the example given) and empathic manipulation are both sub-powers of Mind Manipulation.
Perception Manipulation(not illusion in the example given) and empathic manipulation are both sub-powers of Mind Manipulation.
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@Gargoyle The ability to allow to influence feelings and emotions. Usually associated with mental manipulation.
Also.
"trap people in illusionary worlds within their own minds"
Also.
"trap people in illusionary worlds within their own minds"
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@YungManzi
The way Mindhax is treated her is completly fine and your example is really bad in bringing your point across. I dosnt matter how proficient you are with your abilitys if they cant get past someones resistance in the first place. I would put it like raw skill against raw strengh. Raw Skill brings you only so far against someone whos stronger then you. There will be a point where you cant beat your opponent, no matter how skilled you are. Same with mindhax. Basing on your example your character simply dont have the pure strength to affect more, that or her Verse shafted her abilitys really hard :/
The way Mindhax is treated her is completly fine and your example is really bad in bringing your point across. I dosnt matter how proficient you are with your abilitys if they cant get past someones resistance in the first place. I would put it like raw skill against raw strengh. Raw Skill brings you only so far against someone whos stronger then you. There will be a point where you cant beat your opponent, no matter how skilled you are. Same with mindhax. Basing on your example your character simply dont have the pure strength to affect more, that or her Verse shafted her abilitys really hard :/
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Wait how does his example not bring his point across?
His example clearly defines that range =/= potency of the user's mind manipulation. Or as he put it Quality > Quantity.
Raw skill/strength cannot be likened to that of hax abilities because of their very nature of bypassing the need for raw skill/strength.
Resistances can be overcome but that is mainly a case by case basis depending on the characters used and the potency of the abilities.
His example clearly defines that range =/= potency of the user's mind manipulation. Or as he put it Quality > Quantity.
Raw skill/strength cannot be likened to that of hax abilities because of their very nature of bypassing the need for raw skill/strength.
Resistances can be overcome but that is mainly a case by case basis depending on the characters used and the potency of the abilities.
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Hax can be likened to skill and strength just fine. Literally the only difference is change "Strength" with "Scale".
You can do what you want with the mind of a person? Neat, I can only mind control, but I do so to millions at once.
Now when this "mind control millions" is focused on mind controlling you, your defenses are overpowered millions of times over.
Imagine it as someone trying to block a shot from an AT gun (millions) using a shield (one). You can be as skilled as you want, but the shield breaks
You can do what you want with the mind of a person? Neat, I can only mind control, but I do so to millions at once.
Now when this "mind control millions" is focused on mind controlling you, your defenses are overpowered millions of times over.
Imagine it as someone trying to block a shot from an AT gun (millions) using a shield (one). You can be as skilled as you want, but the shield breaks
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What Kal said.
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@First Witch
When it comes to hax, isn't the potency of hax always determined by which is more proficient? This is always how hax with tiers of their own are treated aside from stuff dealing with higher dimesions and mind hax (for some reason), the only exceptions to this would be more abstract abilities like conceptual manipulation (and even this is up in the air as there are so many different applications). If someone can control more of a person's mind it is already infinitely superior in application. Mind manipulation should've never been just "Mine controls more people, so it's stronger".
Being able to control more of a person's mind = higher mind manipulation.
I somewhat agree with your point about Skill Vs. Strength (Well, not really in the case of most hax), I just don't agree that it can be applied to mind manipulation.
The whole point of mind manipulation is to have power over someone's mind (Power in this case would = proficiency, since they directly correlate in the case of mind manipulation, similar to matter manipulation.).
The only time we consistently treat superior range as more power is with more physical abilities like fire and water manipulation.
When it comes to hax, isn't the potency of hax always determined by which is more proficient? This is always how hax with tiers of their own are treated aside from stuff dealing with higher dimesions and mind hax (for some reason), the only exceptions to this would be more abstract abilities like conceptual manipulation (and even this is up in the air as there are so many different applications). If someone can control more of a person's mind it is already infinitely superior in application. Mind manipulation should've never been just "Mine controls more people, so it's stronger".
Being able to control more of a person's mind = higher mind manipulation.
I somewhat agree with your point about Skill Vs. Strength (Well, not really in the case of most hax), I just don't agree that it can be applied to mind manipulation.
The whole point of mind manipulation is to have power over someone's mind (Power in this case would = proficiency, since they directly correlate in the case of mind manipulation, similar to matter manipulation.).
The only time we consistently treat superior range as more power is with more physical abilities like fire and water manipulation.
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Good... Gooooood... Let the salt flow through you.
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@Prime
I explained why his example was badly choosen (badly explained i can give you that) Hax isnt an automatic "it works" tool. Lets make a analogy with telekinesis. One can lift, attract, expell stuff and all other ways to use telekinesis, the other can only lift. But he can lift way more then the first one. Now you can argue you would win in an telekinesis only battle, but by sheer potency alone the dully wins. And now imation putting both of them against someones who is extremly heavy. The heavier the opponent gets, the more hopeless the battle becomes for mister telekinesis god. But not for mr telekinesis dully. Kaltias explained in his comment why more people = more potency and i agree with his opinion.
Tl.dr: I am not saying that varity in applications is useless or that potency alone decide whos hax is better, but it is logicall to believe that someone with a higher potency overcomes resistances better then some with higher applications.
I explained why his example was badly choosen (badly explained i can give you that) Hax isnt an automatic "it works" tool. Lets make a analogy with telekinesis. One can lift, attract, expell stuff and all other ways to use telekinesis, the other can only lift. But he can lift way more then the first one. Now you can argue you would win in an telekinesis only battle, but by sheer potency alone the dully wins. And now imation putting both of them against someones who is extremly heavy. The heavier the opponent gets, the more hopeless the battle becomes for mister telekinesis god. But not for mr telekinesis dully. Kaltias explained in his comment why more people = more potency and i agree with his opinion.
Tl.dr: I am not saying that varity in applications is useless or that potency alone decide whos hax is better, but it is logicall to believe that someone with a higher potency overcomes resistances better then some with higher applications.
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You've been blessed by Sodium Shaka, the Man Closest to the Salt.
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@First Witch
Your analogy doesn't hold up because telekinesis works completely differently. The ability directly correlates to scale/power and doesn't really have tiers of it's own unlike mind manipulation. Most cases of telekenesis don't even bypass durability.
I know people won't agree because this has been a thing in the Vs. battles community for a long time (and I'm not just talking about this wiki)
I just fail to understand why more people = potency. I read all of your arguments, and they just....don't make sense. How can someone be overpowered by an inferior influence over the mind? If it has less applications (and inferior applications...just gonna throw this out there), it's already an inferior ability. The entire point of mind manipulation is to have control over a person's mind, so why would: more control over someone's mind not = more potency?
It has never made sense because mind manipulation doesn't even work like that. So someone who can induce planetary encouragement, has higher potency than someone who can control every aspect of a single person's mind? (Obviously I'm using a somewhat extreme scenario, but when does it end? When does it get to the point that the amount of people one can effect with their mind manipulation is irrelevant?)
Your analogy doesn't hold up because telekinesis works completely differently. The ability directly correlates to scale/power and doesn't really have tiers of it's own unlike mind manipulation. Most cases of telekenesis don't even bypass durability.
I know people won't agree because this has been a thing in the Vs. battles community for a long time (and I'm not just talking about this wiki)
I just fail to understand why more people = potency. I read all of your arguments, and they just....don't make sense. How can someone be overpowered by an inferior influence over the mind? If it has less applications (and inferior applications...just gonna throw this out there), it's already an inferior ability. The entire point of mind manipulation is to have control over a person's mind, so why would: more control over someone's mind not = more potency?
It has never made sense because mind manipulation doesn't even work like that. So someone who can induce planetary encouragement, has higher potency than someone who can control every aspect of a single person's mind? (Obviously I'm using a somewhat extreme scenario, but when does it end? When does it get to the point that the amount of people one can effect with their mind manipulation is irrelevant?)
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@YungManzi
Point acknolwedged. I made my point and you yours so agree to disagree.
Point acknolwedged. I made my point and you yours so agree to disagree.
