A Sonic Thing

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So I haven't really been paying much mind to the Sonic pages lately, though when browsing them, I noticed that for some reason, base Adventure Sonic was scaled directly to Chaos 6.

This is incredibly wrong.

From a design standpoint, Chaos was always my favorite Sonic villain, so I've made myself quite familiar with its appearances, over the years. The most important thing here would be that, as anyone who has actually fought Chaos 6 can tell you, it's well above Sonic. In fact, when both Sonic and Knuckles fight it, it's entirely immune to their attacks, and isn't even staggered by anything they do. It's only defeated because Sonic (and later Knuckles) use Eggman's inventions against it, freezing it solid and allowing them to damage its body while it is unable to fight back.

To further drive this point home, Chaos is even directly stated by WoG to have been unaffected by Sonic's normal attacks.

"This Chaos has absorbed six of the Chaos Emeralds. With this much power, it is not in the least bit intimidated by Sonic's attacks." - Official Sonic Adventure Website

On top of this, Chaos 0 is shown even within Sonic Adventure to be already comparable to Sonic and co. Hell, it KOs Knuckles to the point that he's still barely recovering when Sonic and Tails arrive. This does not contradict any previous fights, as the party is directly shown to disperse Chaos by literally hitting it in the brain, where it is vulnerable.

And of course, there's also his next canon appearance showing him as comparable to full-power Emerl, who already had the best techniques of Sonic and friends, while just testing him to see if he was ready to confront Eggman.

In short:

• Chaos 0 already scales to base Sonic.

• Base Sonic does not remotely scale to Chaos 6.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Wasn't the Planet level feat done by four Chaos Emeralds anyways? I can't remember if it was four or six.

If it's was the former, then we could just scale Sonic to Chaos 4

 

[Ryukama]

This seems reasonable.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Ever

Six. Rouge mentions it right before they blow up the moon.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I always found Planet level base Sonic to be sketchy.

However, there are other potential feats to scale Sonic from, like in Lost World were Base Sonic fights an Eggman Robot powered by the biosphere of an entire planet.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Why we even have a separate key for Adventure Sonic puzzles me a bit, but I've been really out of touch with the series for a long time.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Ever

I'm not sure, either. Adventure is the same as Modern. It's not clearly a different Sonic, like with Classic.

@Matt

I remember a while back agreeing to High 6-A base Modern from that feat. Not sure what happened, after that.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I also find 5-A Modern Sonic very odd.

All Base Sonic did was harm the eye of Dark Gaia. A bee could badly hurt your eye if it stung it.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I also find 5-A Modern Sonic very odd.
All Base Sonic did was harm the eye of Dark Gaia. A bee could badly hurt your eye if it stung it.

^

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Azathoth

In Sonic Rivals, Sonic also defeats the Ifrit in Base, which is a being who has burned / destroyed entire worlds.

Also there's the feat of Eggman splitting the planet with only one Chaos Emerald in Advanced 3.

 

[KarmodF]

Also in Sonic Battle Emerl was already powerful to one-shot the planet.

Emerl destroys most of the Space Colony Ark and possibly the entire world:

"My worst fears have come true. The Gizoid has absorbed enough weaponry and technology that it has started to go out of control. The resulting rampage resulted in the destruction of most of the "Ark." ... I have deciphered the rest of the stone tablet. It says, "When the Gizoid had learned all that it could, it became a god of wrath, and all was destroyed." The researchers somehow managed to subdue the Gizoid and sealed it away. Luckily, it only had one "Chaos Emerald" installed. If it were to have all 7 Emeralds installed, it might destroy the whole planet. The Gizoid is too much of a liability. I tried destroying its core, but nothing I did worked. I understand too little of the technology that built him. My best hope is to try and reprogram its AI into a free-willed, emotions-based AI..."

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Sauce?

 

[Antvasima]

It is probably good if somebody asks Dark649 for input here.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yeah, it was feared Emerl would destroy the world, but it was destroy as in "violently murder everyone and lay waste to the world" as opposed to planet-busting. Even the psychotic, haywire Emerl at the end of the game plans on using the Final Egg Blaster to destroy Earth.

 

[KarmodF]

Sauce?

No ketchup.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yeah, it was feared Emerl would destroy the world, but it was destroy as in "violently murder everyone and lay waste to the world" as opposed to planet-busting. Even the psychotic, haywire Emerl at the end of the game plans on using the Final Egg Blaster to destroy Earth.

In one of the Mobile Sonic Games, everyone and their mom is shown one-shotting Death Eggs.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I find the distinction between Modern and Adventure to be rather arbitrary now that I think about it.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I find the distinction between Modern and Adventure to be rather arbitrary now that I think about it.

Considering Chaos 0 and the events of Adventure 1 & 2 are canon to Modern Sonic, I'd say it's safe to say they're the same character.

 

[KarmodF]

I find the distinction between Modern and Adventure to be rather arbitrary now that I think about it.

Same but even the Sonic Staff considers the only two Adventures Games as the "Adventure Era", If anything we could change the key to Adventure & Modern.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yeah. The distinction was only created because of the gigantic tone shift that came with Unleashed. But Generations and Forces kinda showed Adventure Era stuff are still canon.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Meanwhile Generations and Forces show that Classic Sonic is a completely different character rather than just a younger version of Sonic.

 

[TurboTriangle601]

Honestly i agree with the downgrade.

 

[Antvasima]

I asked Dark649 to comment here, given that he handled Sera's recent Sonic revision.

 

[TeenAngel101]

I completely disagree.

Sonic's tier is due to defeating Chaos 6, who utilised the power of six chaos emeralds, which performed the moon feat.


He also defeated an Eggman robot powered by an entire planet's biosphere. Defeated Emerl, who was stated by Eggman to have the power to destroy the planet.

Modern Sonic is Large Planet for destroying Eggman's Egg Dragoon. Which was powered by the Dark Gaia, which performed this feat:

https://web.archive.org/web/20140412151210/http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=21317

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Di5eqh1IFjc

https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=0m28s&v=WXDfLAw3QUo

He also destroyed Dark Gaia's eyes in Base Form:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=0m28s&v=WXDfLAw3QUo

And defeated Perfect Chaos in Generations, who was utilising the Negative Power of all 7 Emeralds in Base Form, and was going to flood the entire planet in Adventure:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=2m54s&v=opCIeSTzyrk

No offense, but I'm really tired of these revisions that go through all these months of discusssion and acceptance, and then a couple months later, someone brings up a point against it and everyone suddenly agrees with them.

 

[TurboTriangle601]

@Teen


seems reasonable to me

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

All of that was already been discussed.

Also the entire OP was spent explaining why Sonic doesn't scale to Chaos 6. You can't use "Sonic scales to Chaos 6" as a counter argument.

 

[TeenAngel101]

How does he not scale to Chaos 6?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Because he both explicitly shrugs off everything Sonic tries on him and is defeated via exploiting a weakness only obtainable through outside help.

 

[TurboTriangle601]

Actually in second thought i agree with Azzy especially considering it uses the "Official Sonic Adventure Website."

And i will try to stick to that agreement as long as possible instead of choosing a different side out of my indecisiveness.

 

[TeenAngel101]

This is the fight against Chaos 6.

Tell me where he exploits a weakness or Chaos shrugs off his attacks. You can clearly see him taking damage when Sonic hits him.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9xZIQda9lEo

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9xZIQda9lEo

This is the same fight posted in the OP. Notice how attacking Chaos 6 does absolutely nothing, and how he's only able to be hurt after being frozen solid by Eggman's devices and rendered entirely immobile. Tikal even points out that you need to freeze him in order to win at the start of the fight.

 

[TurboTriangle601]

I was almost gonna agree but he was frozen.

Do you expect someone to still be as strong as they are while frozen? It's basic logic.

If a athlete gets frozen do you expect the frozen athlete to still have it's strength? I wouldn't.

 

[TeenAngel101]

Even still, Sonic is able to take attacks from him. When he harnessing the 6 Emeralds.

Sonic still scales by tanking Chaos 6's attacks.

 

[TurboTriangle601]

@Teen

You have a fair point. I could really start thinking and paying attention more often.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Even still, Sonic is able to take attacks from him. When he harnessing the 6 Emeralds.
Sonic still scales by tanking Chaos 6's attacks.

Nothing actually implies Sonic took damage during the encounter aside from the the possibility of being hit during the playable fight, which is an obvious gameplay mechanic, otherwise being hit by Chaos 6 hurts equally as much as by a generic badnik.

Considering Chaos 0 could knock Knuckles out, I don't think Sonic actually did any tanking from a horrendously stronger version of the same character.

 

[TurboTriangle601]

And then again, I should really start thinking and paying attention more often.

I agree with Azzy again, The only thing that could save Sonic is nothing more then some good ol' gameplay mechanics to make the battle actually fair and defeatable.

And the Sonic the Hedgehog universe probably functions a bit differently when dealing with matters involving freezing, As a frozen fighter would be 10-C which would allow even the weakest Sonic character (of any importance that is) to one shot Chaos 6.

 

[Random1201]

@TurboTriangle

No offense, but you don't have to proclaim that you agree with one of them everything an argument is made.

 

[TurboTriangle601]

@Random

Good point. Maybe i'm a bit too quick to think considering i woke up early and it's 12:39 AM in my time.

Anyhow, Back to topic.

 

[TeenAngel101]

That is not a legit argument and can be caused by gameplay mechanics. In this clip of Sonic X, Sonic indeed took damage during the fight with Chaos 6.

I know it is a completely separate continuity, but my point is that it is highly unlikely that Sonic didn't take damage during the fight.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fG6l0kVMMHw

Also, your point of Chaos 0 knocking out Knuckles is PIS and is contradicted by Sonic easily defeating him at the beginning of the game.

 

[TeenAngel101]

That still doesn't dismiss every other Planet level feat performed by Sonic either.