A Small Discussion on Maou Gakuin Resistances

[Tatsumi504]

No, actually, that seems to be the entire premise of Derek’s comment, which you guys based an unconventional resistance off of. I’m talking about the Soul, which would be the Source in MG’s case, which carries memories. They’re the same in this analogy, don’t get caught in my wording.

Derrick's premise isn't talking about the soul. Tensura stores memories in the soul, MG stores memories in the source. Tensura has unconventional resistance because you need to affect the soul to affect the mind. MG has it because you need to affect the source to affect the mind.

Everything, as I mentioned earlier, because it’s never stated anywhere that one can think with their Source, or that the Source even protects those memories, unlike what TenSura repeatedly asserts. All that the source does is keep the memories of one’s life, and exists deeper than the psyche. Nothing that imparts an actual resistance.

With that, count me as a strong agree of this thread.

Protection isn't needed. You need to go through the source to get to their memories of memories are inside the source. Never stated anywhere that they can think with the source? I just sent quotes where thinking was actually done with the source, multiple times. Anos has had body, mind, magic, 5 senses paralyzed and powernulled and was thinking with his source. Where do you think "Limited Abstract Existence" comes from for those who operate as a source? How do you think they have self Resurrection if they cannot think with the source? You also advocated for self Resurrection yourself in the other thread.

Man, this just keeps getting better and better. First staff and now a complete bystander is contradicting themselves. LMAO.

 

[Tatsumi504]

People don't even know what the basis of unconventional resistance is. Imma just sit back and watch as you all keep falling into the pit you dug for yourselves. Hilarious!

Lemme also leave this here

Unconventional Resistance to Soul Manipulation (His Soul is located within the Space Between Time Dimension and to effect his Soul, one is required to either enter said Dimension, or have Interdimensional ranged abilities)

Unconventional Resistances to the following: Existence Erasure, Matter Manipulation, Non-Physical Interaction, Mind Manipulation Empathic Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, Causality Manipulation, Soul Manipulation and Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1) (Dispel Bounds protect Eternal Atoms which govern these aspects of existence).

just some of the unconventional resistances on the wiki

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Derrick's premise isn't talking about the soul. Tensura stores memories in the soul, MG stores memories in the source. Tensura has unconventional resistance because you need to affect the soul to affect the mind. MG has it because you need to affect the source to affect the mind.

I’m just going to repeat the former message, being this:

I’m talking about the Soul, which would be the Source in MG’s case, which carries memories. They’re the same in this analogy, don’t get caught in my wording.

Protection isn't needed.

Then it isn’t a resistance, simply put. That’s all’s resistance is.

You need to go through the source to get to their memories of memories are inside the source.

I agree, I don’t believe I said anything to the contrary.

Never stated anywhere that they can think with the source? I just sent quotes where thinking was actually done with the source, multiple times. Anos has had body, mind, magic, 5 senses paralyzed and powernulled and was thinking with his source.

If the ones in the link are what you’re referring to, then that’s irrelevant, considering that’s the Web Novel, and this is a Light Novel revision. If you’re referring to the other three, they actually don’t help you in the slightest, considering again, one is from the Web Novel, and the other two don’t prove your stance. As for the Anos thinking with his source, it was mentioned earlier that that was from Volume 9, but wasn’t in any current translated content, and given the track record of untranslated feats in relation to this series, I’d need scans, since it’s suspicious, in my view.

“Of course I wouldn’t go that far. However, I did use the spell to create a
fake source with no consciousness. Although it looked the same, the source was
devoid of life.”

How does this prove that they think with it? It just suggests that a source with no consciousness makes people vegetative. If the source holds consciousness, which is stated in here:

“Thoughts and feelings are grounded in the source. I am Eleonore, the magic
that creates sources.”

How does that at all suggest that they think with the source? If they can still operate despite the destruction of the mind, then that’s not a resistance, that’s just instinctive reaction.

 

[Tatsumi504]

I’m just going to repeat the former message, being this:

Tf? The source is not a soul? What are you on?

I agree, I don’t believe I said anything to the contrary.

Then you disagree with the thread in actuality. That is the contradiction

How does this prove that they think with it? It just suggests that a source with no consciousness makes people vegetative. If the source holds consciousness, which is stated in here:

Vegetative? It means it isn't alive.

How does that at all suggest that they think with the source? If they can still operate despite the destruction of the mind, then that’s not a resistance, that’s just instinctive reaction.

She created a source to produce thoughts and emotions. How do you produce thoughts without a mind? Instinctive reaction? When the source is producing thoughts? This keeps getting better and better

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Tf? The source is not a soul? What are you on?

The Soul, in TenSura’s case, which houses thought and memories, is the same as the Source, in MG’s case, which houses thoughts and memories. It is a comparison; an analogy, they complete the same purpose. I don’t know how to break it down to you any further, and any simpler.

Then you disagree with the thread in actuality. That is the contradiction

I don’t. Derek’s comment supposes that the Source thinks without the mind, which I don’t agree with.

Vegetative? It means it isn't alive.

Aware.

She created a source to produce thoughts and emotions. How do you produce thoughts without a mind? Instinctive reaction? When the source is producing thoughts? This keeps getting better and better

That’s not what the scan says. It says:

“Thoughts and feelings are grounded in the source. I am Eleonore, the magic
that creates sources.”

Thoughts and feelings being grounded and being produced in the source are entirely different things. If it’s grounded there, then it isn’t actually created there, which is substantiated by this claim:

To begin with, magic power is created from the magical source in our bodies. To put it simply, it's the soul, the psyche, but the source exists even deeper in the abyss, and it's what makes us who we are.

 

[Dog3352]

How does this prove that they think with it? It just suggests that a source with no consciousness makes people vegetative. If the source holds consciousness, which is stated in here:

Bro , from everything I've seen, this is probably the worst, a source that doesn't contain a single thing (be it mind, magic or something) has no life, there is no PERSON in a source that doesn't have everything that a normal font has.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Bro , from everything I've seen, this is probably the worst, a source that doesn't contain a single thing (be it mind, magic or something) has no life, there is no PERSON in a source that doesn't have everything that a normal font has.

I agree, if the source doesn’t contain anything, such as a thought or consciousness, then the person is, as the scan suggests, a puppet. But again, it’s a Web Novel scan, so it’s relevance isn’t all that important.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Man, this just keeps getting better and better. First staff and now a complete bystander is contradicting themselves. LMAO.

Spoiler

I agree, if the source doesn’t contain anything, such as a thought or consciousness, then the person is, as the scan suggests, a puppet. But again, it’s a Web Novel scan, so it’s relevance isn’t all that important.

That's a LN scan not WN

 

[ShionAH]

No, not at all. Mind and soul manip can affect you in other ways than "destroy your soul/mind."

Efffecting Mind and Soul = Anos does not give a **** = Resistance

There should be more supporting Admins for MG tbh like half the mods I see in these threads always just go agree on the downgrades lol

 

[Tatsumi504]

The Soul, in TenSura’s case, which houses thought and memories, is the same as the Source, in MG’s case, which houses thoughts and memories. It is a comparison; an analogy, they complete the same purpose. I don’t know how to break it down to you any further, and any simpler.


I don’t. Derek’s comment supposes that the Source thinks without the mind, which I don’t agree with.


Aware.


That’s not what the scan says. It says:



Thoughts and feelings being grounded and being produced in the source are entirely different things. If it’s grounded there, then it isn’t actually created there, which is substantiated by this claim:

There is no need to break it down further. Since you're not aware, your previous messages were calling the source the soul. That is not an analogy in anyway, it's a direct equation of one being the other.

Which you don't agree with against the evidence provided.

The scan says: "Thoughts and feelings are grounded in the source. I am Eleonore l, the magic that creates sources.
[...]
Creating sources here will spell disaster, that is why I am creating only the Thoughts and Emotions inside them"

You are once again contradicting yourself. The source is deeper than body, soul, psche and the source still produces thoughts and Emotions. This is thinking with the source.

 

[Tatsumi504]

How does the source being deeper than soul & psyche contradict the source producing thoughts?

There's clearly a distinction being created between the conventional mind & soul and the source mind & source soul.

 

[ShionAH]

Don't do DDD kids: Double Dstandarts D

 

[Dog3352]

I agree, if the source doesn’t contain anything, such as a thought or consciousness, then the person is, as the scan suggests, a puppet. But again, it’s a Web Novel scan, so it’s relevance isn’t all that important.

Why do you usually only replicate pseudo-origins that have magic, mind, body, one or both?

"... Because if you create the three copies of the source, it will become life with consciousness"

Of course, what about the fact that Anos himself mentions a source without a single thing that normal sources don't have as "dead" and completely irrelevant, and the fact that a source with only thoughts and feelings is mentioned as a non-real source is something else completely irrelevant, or the fact that Ingall is not a passive spell and has to be used and something else irrelevant.

 

[Dog3352]

Can anyone repost the second pic being used in the OP? I am not able to open it, and apparently, there may be a certain translation error that changes the meaning of the sentence a little (at least in mine and translated differently).

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

That's a LN scan not WN

Are we talking about the same scan? I’m referring to this:

What other reason could there be for Ennesuone not to be born?"

"There is only one left. She was deprived of what she needed to be born."

Wenzel replies.

Hm. I've already heard that. A mindless puppet, a vessel without magic, a soul without a body."
-WN Chapter 403

There is no need to break it down further. Since you're not aware, your previous messages were calling the source the soul. That is not an analogy in anyway, it's a direct equation of one being the other.

I’m talking about the Soul, which would be the Source in MG’s case, which carries memories. They’re the same in this analogy, don’t get caught in my wording.

Not sure how much longer you want to continue this, especially after I clarified earlier.

Creating sources here will spell disaster, that is why I am creating only the Thoughts and Emotions inside them"

You are once again contradicting yourself. The source is deeper than body, soul, psche and the source still produces thoughts and Emotions. This is thinking with the source.

This isn’t what the scan says. The source doesn’t produce thoughts and emotions, the scan verbatim says that Eleonore is the magic that creates sources, and that she actively has to add the latter to them.

Of course, what about the fact that Anos himself mentions a source without a single thing that normal sources don't have as "dead" and completely irrelevant, and the fact that a source with only thoughts and feelings is mentioned as a non-real source is something else completely irrelevant, or the fact that Ingall is not a passive spell and has to be used and something else irrelevant.

I don’t understand the relevance, it just proves that the source is deeper than consciousness, which is already agreed on. If you give a consciousness to a source, then it becomes alive.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Going to call it a night here, 5 a.m and having issues replying on mobile.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I don't care about this thread.

But this is wrong With source alone character can think.

I don’t. Derek’s comment supposes that the Source thinks without the mind, which I don’t agree with.

? So are you saying Anos didn't think with his source alone when casting Ingall. ?

“Did you really think killing me was enough to make me die?”

Ivis activated his Magic Eyes. But there were no tricks to it—I had indeed died just now.

“Don’t act so surprised. I merely used Ingall.”

“You cast magic...with your source alone?! Without using a single drop of blood...”

Even if the physical body perishes, the source of one’s power remains. Those who have mastered magic are able to cast spells with only their source—making feats like reincarnation possible. Resurrection could be performed as long as the magic was cast within three seconds of death.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Are we talking about the same scan? I’m referring to this:

I’m just going to repeat the former message, being this:




Then it isn’t a resistance, simply put. That’s all’s resistance is.


I agree, I don’t believe I said anything to the contrary.


If the ones in the link are what you’re referring to, then that’s irrelevant, considering that’s the Web Novel, and this is a Light Novel revision. If you’re referring to the other three, they actually don’t help you in the slightest, considering again, one is from the Web Novel, and the other two don’t prove your stance. As for the Anos thinking with his source, it was mentioned earlier that that was from Volume 9, but wasn’t in any current translated content, and given the track record of untranslated feats in relation to this series, I’d need scans, since it’s suspicious, in my view.



How does this prove that they think with it? It just suggests that a source with no consciousness makes people vegetative. If the source holds consciousness, which is stated in here:



How does that at all suggest that they think with the source? If they can still operate despite the destruction of the mind, then that’s not a resistance, that’s just instinctive reaction.

^^ check your reply here which has different scan.

 

[Reiner04]

Fake source are regarded as source who don't posses any conciousness, as scan in the OP and profile says, they act, think from the source. Seems simple enough. I disagree.

 

[ShionAH]

I am surprised MG supporters didnt go crazy from the things they go through lol, bros got Supernatural willpower fr fr

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I am surprised MGQ supporters didnt go crazy from the things they go through lol, bros got Supernatural willpower fr fr

Supporters just lost the interest. Who would support a verse Desperately when someone just comes in and removes a ability without any Downgrade thread and gets off free with no consequences.

 

[Reiner04]

I am surprised MGQ supporters didnt go crazy from the things they go through lol, bros got Supernatural willpower fr fr

I've been suggesting these rock heads to leave already but bros don't listen and still here.

 

[Tatsumi504]

This isn’t what the scan says. The source doesn’t produce thoughts and emotions, the scan verbatim says that Eleonore is the magic that creates sources, and that she actively has to add the latter to them.

Aske- Magic that converts the thoughts and Emotions of others into magic power.
...
"Wh-What is this?! Why is Aske...? Where did you gather all that magic
from?!”
“Thoughts and feelings are grounded in the source. I am Eleonore, the magic
that creates sources.”
“You can’t fool me! No sources are being created anywhere! You and the
ghouls are the only ones here!”
“Making sources here would spell disaster. That’s why I’m only creating the
emotions inside them.”
Zaburo was speechless. His Eyes were wide as he stared into her abyss. “That
can’t be... Creating only the emotions of a source shouldn’t be possible!”

Say that again. How does magic that produce sources produce thoughts to add them? Why go the extra mile to create the source if she's adding thoughts to it? She can make use of the thoughts alone in that case.

 

[Dog3352]

I am surprised MG supporters didnt go crazy from the things they go through lol, bros got Supernatural willpower fr fr

I, who am not even a supporter of the verse, go crazy with this.

 

[Deagonx]

Man, this just keeps getting better and better. First staff and now a complete bystander is contradicting themselves. LMAO.

Stop making comments like this.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Stop making comments like this.

Noted

 

[Reiner04]

Also "Existing deeper than body mind and soul" being treated as contradiction is anything but right, we literally have Information Manipulation type 2 as something deeper than body, mind and soul (as per our Regen page) while still holding each and every thing regarding Once existence, their memory, mind, soul as information (program or simulation) and if there is a character who can still stay concious and think, act with mere their information, I don't see any problem' with it, information makes ppl who they're, everything regarding them. Existing deeper just show how fundamental that is to one's existence. The logic seems as soul shouldn't be able to think as they have got no brain. Fiction mostly not abide by this logic strictly.

 

[Deagonx]

To be clear, my point was that the scans being used to argue that the Source can act as a mind and soul unto itself are worded in such a way that indicates that the Source is something that can have, or not have, those things. Not that a Source can inherently do that. For that reason, I do not agree with using that information to indicate a special form of resistance.

 

[ShionAH]

Source is something that can have, or not have, those things. Not that a Source can inherently do that. For that reason, I do not agree with using that information to indicate a special form of resistance.

So which one? Can they survive as a Source and still think after their mind and soul is destroyed? If yes then thats resistance

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

So which one? Can they survive as a Source and still think after their mind and soul is destroyed? If yes then thats resistance

They can that's why they have abstract existence.

 

[Reiner04]

Source can act as a mind and soul unto itself are worded in such a way that indicates that the Source is something that can have, or not have, those things

OP one? That seems clear to me tho.

 

[Reiner04]

To be clear, my point was that the scans being used to argue that the Source can act as a mind and soul unto itself are worded in such a way that indicates that the Source is something that can have, or not have, those things. Not that a Source can inherently do that. For that reason, I do not agree with using that information to indicate a special form of resistance.

It will be helpful if you may can quote the scan you're talking about, that would help in clearing the stuff.

 

[Tatsumi504]

To be clear, my point was that the scans being used to argue that the Source can act as a mind and soul unto itself are worded in such a way that indicates that the Source is something that can have, or not have, those things. Not that a Source can inherently do that. For that reason, I do not agree with using that information to indicate a special form of resistance.

Please could you point out which one in particular? Even a vague description will do since I've sent like 5 different scans already

 

[Godsatoshi23]

@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara you should add dereck disagreement to the thread.

 

[Deagonx]

This is something that's been accepted since Null was active.

Characters with this listed are those who can operate as a source. The source itself is capable of acting as a source alone.

In the first place, thoughts and feelings are grounded in the source

Root mother Eleonore, the magic that creates sources. To avoid creating complete individuals, she creates only pseudo sources. Sources that only have a heart/mind, sources devoid of life with no conciousness and she can create a pseudo source soul alone–a source that acts as a soul.

These characters can exist as only a source. The source exists deeper and regardless of the mind and soul. Life, heart and conciousness is grounded in the source. The source is able to perform the function of the mind and soul and they resist attacks that can destroy the source

The ones mentioned here. The internal quotes didn't remain when I pressed reply, but if you jump back to the comment you will see them.

 

[Reiner04]

The ones mentioned here. The internal quotes didn't remain when I pressed reply, but if you jump back to the comment you will see them.

Is it that "lacking conciousness" point? Also, Deagonx, you can still copy paste quotes yk? Lol.

 

[Deagonx]

Is it that "lacking conciousness" point? Also, Deagonx, you can still copy paste quotes yk? Lol.

You can go back and read my comments on the first page if you want to see my assessment about it.

 

[Reiner04]

You can go back and read my comments on the first page if you want to see my assessment about it.

Okay I went to the page first, I think your problem' with a scan is that source appears to contain memories, soul but not function as such. However, The source doesn't just contain them but acts and thinks as them as stated in the scan above in OP. Just because it contains information or everything regarding the person (just same as info type 2 fundamentality or conceptual Existence of being) doesn't discredit that they cannot think and act w/o actual body and soul as it is deeper than body, mind and soul.

 

[Tatsumi504]

To be clear, my point was that the scans being used to argue that the Source can act as a mind and soul unto itself are worded in such a way that indicates that the Source is something that can have, or not have, those things. Not that a Source can inherently do that. For that reason, I do not agree with using that information to indicate a special form of resistance.

To further add to what Reiner has said and to address your message. It is not that a source can have or not have these things.

The source of every living person possesses those properties. I went as far as to pull evidence from the web novel. A source can be divided into 3 psuedo sources namely; A source body, source mind, source soul. Creating a source with these 3 things intact creates conciousness with life.

The reason Anos and Eleonore create only pseudo sources is to avoid creating tragic children. Anos and Eleonore have 10k daughters created by human hands through the use of Eleonore's magic after all.

Furthermore, the source is deeper than mind and soul yet it's components include a mind and soul. This isn't a cotradiction to the definition of the source, it's a distinction between the two things. There exists a conventional body, conventional mind, conventional soul then there is a source body, source mind and a source soul which can all be coined under the term–pseudo sources.

Characters have been killed and cast magic with only their source, that has been made clear after all, you agreed that their mid-godly regeneration should be changed to self Resurrection on a mid-godly level because it isn't passive– they have to actively revive themselves.

As seen in the scan above, Anos does revive himself with only his source. His opponent makes it clear he did so using only the source. There was no mention of mind or soul being used.

The next scan is Anos talking about Misha and Sasha. They can try to believe as much as possible with their heads– biological mind a.k.a the brain– but if they don't believe deeply from their hearts– conventional mind referencing both thoughts and emotions– from their very sources, then their spell won't activate.
It referenced both the brain and the normal mind and went ahead to mention the source.

---

Now looking at the total points from the first page, you believe that the source possessing a mind and soul/ acting as the mind and soul is a contradiction and rather the mind and soul is inside the source.
Should that hold true, then the unconventional resistance stands. You need to go through the source to reach their memories, mind & soul and without affecting the source you cannot affect those things. This is one of the ways to qualify for unconventional resistance.

Should the point I addressed with the scan hold true, then it ends up with the characters not caring about their mind and soul and being unaffected by whatever happens to them in other words, you affect/alter/destroy their mind and soul and they won't care. They shall continue to operate normally unhindered by whatever is done to those aspects as the source is what matters. This is some form of resistance or otherwise outright immunity but we index immunity solely on the basis of a lack of the properties being affected and to that effect, it has been left as unconventional resistance.

---

If I misplaced any of your points then please correct it however should my second point be true and you feel it is not a basis for unconventional resistance then I offer the solution of noting it down somewhere in the profile that the characters in question are not affected by the manipulation of these things

 

[Deagonx]

If I misplaced any of your points then please correct it however should my second point be true and you feel it is not a basis for unconventional resistance then I offer the solution of noting it down somewhere in the profile that the characters in question are not affected by the manipulation of these things

??? But that's identical to saying they have a resistance, which I do not believe that they do.