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A re-scaling about DMC's Big Bad

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Cyberblader90

Cyberblader90

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The infamous scene

Today I would like to re-examine this contentious topic, using guides and statements available regarding this sequence in the first game.

1. Commentary from staff from the 3.1.4.2 artbook​

Discussion regarding the changes between the "space and ground" sections of the mundus fight from developers of the first game

2. Statements from the DMC 1 Japanese Game Guide​

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/429323557651087382/808518547068289084/q1Bm6dr.png
unknown.png (412×182) (discordapp.com)

ムンドゥスが翼を羽ばたかせると、神殿はー瞬にしてその存在を失い、世界は星の海に包まれた。広大な宇宙にただ両者のみが対時する。

As Mundus flapped his wings, the temple instantly lost its existence and the world was enveloped in a sea of stars. Only the two sides were facing each other in the vastness of space.

Alternatively:

When Mundus flaps his wings, The temple lost its existence in an instant, The world was surrounded by a sea of stars. Only both of them face the vast universe.

A fluent translator on discord got this:
unknown.png (1165×546) (discordapp.com)
“As Mundus flapped his wings, the temple ceased to exist in an instant and the world was enveloped in a sea of stars. In the vastness of the universe, only two people faced each other.”


kfFgsKF.png (837×1226) (discordapp.com)
心身の深遠なる場から魔力解き放ち、ダンテはその身を魔人に変視させた。地を蹴り、無限に広がる暗黒の空へ飛び立つ。その深皃工の瞳に、ただ魔帝の暗灰色の姿のみを映して。人知を超えた領域で伝説の戦いがいま始まった。
Unleashing the magic power from the profound field of his mind and body, Dante transformed his body into a demon. He kicked the ground and took off into the infinitely expanding dark sky. In his deep diamond eyes, he saw only the dark gray figure of the Demon Emperor. In a realm beyond human comprehension, a legendary battle has now begun.

Alternatively:
Unleashing his magic from the deepest places of his mind and body. Dante transformed his body into a demon. He kicked the earth and took off into the dark sky that stretched endlessly. In that crimson evasion. The only reflection of the demon emperor's dark gray figure in his crimson aperture. In the mirror realm beyond human knowledge, the legendary battle has now begun.

s0LD9e4.png (459×612) (discordapp.com)
relevant quote:

After finishing the battle in the Demon Emperor's Space "Heaven", the stage is moved to the Demon Emperor's Space "Earth" to fight the second form of Mundus.

latest.png (992×525) (discordapp.com)
the English DMC 1 guide (which had game staff input) also calls the space the same thing.

Conclusion:
Overall the Guides at the very minimum treat this space as real, with a sea of stars in it.

3. Demonic World energy/Consistency​

Mundus is stated twice to be equal in power to argosax.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/734273402726121472/734815958308356148/unknown-1.png
The supreme king of the demon world with power equal to that of Mundus.



Demonic rulers = Abigail and Argosax

This is relevant in the aspect that Argosax demonstrated a low 2c feat.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Mister6ame6/Sandbox

“The World Energy is capable to warp the space-time in a Universal scale,can create time paradoxes,can affect not only the present, but also the past and future and is capable to warp the entire of the universe”

This is currently accepted, most recently here:
https://vsbattles.com/threads/fixin...some-haxs-additions-for-devil-may-cry.109978/

So essentially the universe creation feat is consistent.

4. Kamiya's WoG​


Easily the most contentious thing regarding this sequence. Kamiya's wog has a weird history of acceptance on this website, sometimes dismissed entirely, sometimes accepted (Ex: Bayonetta's current 3-a rating via Jubileus)

To start, i would like to preface Kamiya has a strange rule set that if broken leads to his trollish answers:
19PClvYlJAfykdsWflpJLD86QeYwAZgOiYnNmmkYFQ_jFdIKsnz_5z4__F8cCnN1Cdtkc-PRrvvO9IVP_V3zVwdhhym0V8mM4bx_N2qxKQ5r9jkIweyv4AG42H3JwpfjZYZpuaZF


The general rule is if Kamiya hasn't blocked you or responded in a trollish way, he probably means his answer. An example would be giving details on Dante's life:
Translations for Kamiya’s other tweets about Dante and Trish’s living situation : DevilMayCry (reddit.com)

With that said, Kamiya has been asked on the Mundus sequence before, and i would like to re explore his answers.

When asked whether the sequence was accurate, Kamiya responds with "universe"

He later gets asked if the sequence is real, and responds by relinking his old universe answer

When asked once more if what he said was correct, he says to refer to his old answer

This paints a picture of consistency, at least to his stated intent for the scene. Keep in mind that staff that worked with Kamiya mention in the 3.1.4.2. book about the intended space scenes, and the sequence is flat stated as having happened in the Japanese game guide, which was released years before these twitter questions.

Bonus​

Mundus is empowered by the Qliphoth.
(6) Documents & Profiles - Devil May Cry 5 [PS4/Xbox One] - YouTube
Screenshot_2020-04-18-23-35-47.png (960×540) (discordapp.com)

The qliphoth has the power to physically fuse both the demon world and human worlds (both universes).
DMC.png (793×410) (discordapp.com)
DMC.png (737×408) (discordapp.com)

Is it BFR?​


Mundus teleporting or creating portals requires the usage of demon sigils.


When he creates this realm, he does this:


He does not use sigils. Bfr also makes no sense, as that would mean he would reverse bfr dante when he lost, which is completely out of character for mundus. Dante also cannot travel out of dimensions, as he did not have Yamato at this time.

Furthermore, this screenshot addresses another issue with it being bfr/dimensional travel:
ucmQNTpnkApsZJMClma7wTPt-S6dKdiWyF7ZibrYgw59Q8DdZCQ4Zpk6Uwv8b2MHok9DMT5YkehLkm64Z6DxIuNQlOH6_VcZ40XOZ6W_Pk162q-KjvP7_jaITaC20A86j5__XU8e


Why does the space disappear when mundus is defeated​

When mundus is defeated, the realm dante was in disappears


However this is simply because mundus was sustaining it. This is consistent with statements that his death would cause the collapse of the demon world.
(3) Devil May Cry 1 HD: Dante vs Mundus/The Ending - YouTube

unknown.png (783×512) (discordapp.com)
unknown.png (761×500) (discordapp.com)

The reason the underworld does not collapse is Dante seals Mundus.
unknown.png (780×436) (discordapp.com)

​

Conclusion​

Guidebooks + WoG support the space shown in the scene to be real. WoG states it was a universe that was produced. BFR is unsupported given the scene itself, and how Mundus is shown to use dimensional travel. The reason the space collapses is the near death of Mundus.

Since this feat is the creation of a full universe, alongside demonic world energy being accepted as fourth dimensional, this feat is low 2-c
 
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This seems fine I suppose. Though admittedly I feel a bit hesitant when it comes to Kamiya's tweets in general being used as evidence.
 
Everything checks out as far as the statements goes. And yeah, it's said there on Argosax being equal to Mundus in power so there's that too.
 
Kamiya statements are evaluated on a case by case basis. All Kamiya statements that we use on this wiki should be from interviews or game commentary. Any Kamiya TWEETS should be immediately disregarded, unless proved otherwise as he is well known for trolling on that bird app. The bayo 3-A statement comes from professional game commentary of Bayo 1. No tweets are used for anything in the Bayo verse.

I don't know anything about DMC, so I won't be commenting on the revisions. I just wanted to drop a comment on how we evaluate Kamiya statements.
 
Crimson_Shadow101 said:
Kamiya statements are evaluated on a case by case basis. All Kamiya statements that we use on this wiki should be from interviews or game commentary. Any Kamiya TWEETS should be immediately disregarded, unless proved otherwise as he is well known for trolling on that bird app. The bayo 3-A statement comes from professional game commentary of Bayo 1. No tweets are used for anything in the Bayo verse.

I don't know anything about DMC, so I won't be commenting on the revisions. I just wanted to drop a comment on how we evaluate Kamiya statements.
Click to expand...
is this an established discussion rule, and if so, may i get a link to it
 
Crimson_Shadow101 said:
Kamiya statements are evaluated on a case by case basis. All Kamiya statements that we use on this wiki should be from interviews or game commentary. Any Kamiya TWEETS should be immediately disregarded, unless proved otherwise as he is well known for trolling on that bird app. The bayo 3-A statement comes from professional game commentary of Bayo 1. No tweets are used for anything in the Bayo verse.

I don't know anything about DMC, so I won't be commenting on the revisions. I just wanted to drop a comment on how we evaluate Kamiya statements.
Click to expand...
I agree with that 3-A Bayo statement but Kamiya's Mundus universe tweets have more evidence to support them more than the Bayo 3-A statement now that we know the dimension and the stars are real.
 
Dienomite22 said:
I agree with that 3-A Bayo statement but Kamiya's Mundus universe tweets have more evidence to support them more than the Bayo 3-A statement now that we know the dimension and the stars are real.
Click to expand...
Again, I don't know crap about the DMC verse other than that Dante has regen, a sword, and a transformation called devil trigger. I was just here to specifically comment about the Kamiya stuff. At a glance it looks like you have other evidence for the revision anyways. I'd just advise against using Kamiya tweets on any profiles or anything.
 
I believe the novel statements and the guidebooks are more reliable evidence than Kamiya's tweets, I think we concluded that in another DMC thread a few years ago. I was there when it happened.
 
Crimson_Shadow101 said:
Again, I don't know crap about the DMC verse other than that Dante has regen, a sword, and a transformation called devil trigger. I was just here to specifically comment about the Kamiya stuff. At a glance it looks like you have other evidence for the revision anyways. I'd just advise against using Kamiya tweets on any profiles or anything.
Click to expand...
I'm just trying to stress that Kamiya's tweets are likely unusable in this instance as visual, lore, WoG, and official game material by the devs support the statements presented by Kamiya on twitter.
 
Being 100% honest, I don't know about Kamiya's stuff and the rules behind that, but if the Wiki does accept this kind of confirmation, like God of War does, I'm fine with it

However, my main point is that we don't really need Kamiya here, Mundus feat, going by the Official Guide's own description, is 100% legit and the translations show that it can be either 4-A or Low 2-C.

However going by what the series showed, the DMC God Tiers are completely consistent with Universal stuff. And more importantly, we already have accepted the Demon World being a separated, own Time-Space in the last CRT, with its Energy having solid Low 2-C feats. With the series having multiple feats of Fusing both Worlds, keep said Fusion via existence alone and stuff like that, with both Qlithoth and Argosax (two beings that have those feats) scalling directly to Mundus via basically every material (Like KLOL said, Mundus and Argosax had a war that left the Demon World separated in two sides, one rulling each side), I see no reason to not let them just Low 2-C, since warping and fusing two separated Universes is that level, with Mundus feat in this case being Universal Creation as that range is nothing new and is consistent to the God Tiers
 
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I already knew and read before the thread, since Cyber loves doc

Nice job Cyber.

Regarding Kamiya's being a troll or not, Kamiya's rules are water clear showing on what type of questions he will troll or not, Kamiya's statement related to Mundus universe being a troll comment is wrong, check the older threads, kamiya was done dirty by some users and this legend about him being an absolute troll is false, yes alot of WOG can make mistakes, state BS related to their verse and etc, on those comments about mundus cyber linked he is being clear and no signs of him trolling, is case by case scenarios that should happen not straight up ''UHHHH Kamiya Troll''.
 
I agree btw. I would also like to note that the Japanese scans from point 2 are not from guides per se but from an official capcom made product called Devil May Cry Precious Tears. The book is a retelling of DMC1 through gameplay screenshots and dialogue with developer comments here and there while also adding descriptions for what is happening during cutscenes or gameplay events. Its validity can't be argued.
 
The whole Kamiya thing is, and always has been, contentious. I honestly don't really like how polarised all of the discussion is (that is, so many of the opinions I see either go under the idea that "everything Kamiya says should be undoubtedly treated as WOG and accepted" or "Kamiya made some troll statements in the past, therefore he should not be trusted ever again"). In truth, I just feel as though all of Kamiya's statements should be considered on a case-by-case basis with context in mind. I've defended the usual Kamiya twitter statement in the past, but I entirely understand why it's still contentious.

Almost all of this, however, I have no issue with. The Mundus feat as a whole has always bugged me, because while it's not been wholly relevant to the ratings thus far, it's a feat that he should very obviously scale to. Knowing a feat like that exists makes me annoyed to think Mundus was once 7-A.

As a whole, I agree.
 
I believe Kamiya old statement should be valid.

He used to be friendly and answer the fan questions before turn completely into a RG style.
 
Makes sense. Although the kamiya is not really needed i can see the issues for his statements. It should be case to case tbh as sometimes he may answer legitly without trolling at cases. I felt the universe tweet is simply to answer what was made to explain smth that he think deserves a proper answer and if he kept showing that it does paint a picture he really meant what he said instead of saying: Ask Mundus. Overall I agree just the tweet is only supporting at best
 
Point made about the use of Twitter WoG for this, especially if it comes from someone who "trolls" like Kamiya.

I would think the use of his tweet, questionable as it is, could be used if at least as supporting evidence at best given that it, and the repeat of linking back to it to refer what he answered the first time is meant to show that what DMC1 showed with Mundus as well as the side materials like game guides and artbook related to Mundus is true.

Which to say means it does reinforce what the other official materials tell of what Mundus showed and did in the game.
 
Guys, the Kamiya tweet is nothing but supporting evidence, don't really mind it if you don't like it and focus on the rest of the argument.
 
I'm in the same boat as KLOL, I wouldn't use the Kamiya's tweets, but everything else is fine.
 
KLOL506 said:
Also doesn't the Argosax vs Mundus fight literally result in the two universes becoming split due to their sheer flexing power according to the novels?
Click to expand...
yeah, the last novel says that their war split the universe in 2 sides to see who was to rule everything, after Sparda its likely that Argosax got the rest of the place for himself.

But imo it isn't straight up about power but about who had more control of the demon world
 
I guess what is being proposed is that this feat should be accepted as a real feat for Mundus and can be used as more evidence for the current ratings.
 
Dienomite22 said:
I guess what is being proposed is that this feat should be accepted as a real feat for Mundus and can be used as more evidence for the current ratings.
Click to expand...
Not only that, but to take the feat as a Low 2-C feat via the guide description, the overall consistency with that range and with the statements. Creating a Universal Separated Dimension is a Low 2-C feat

Plus, last thread already accepted the Demon World being 4D/Own Space-Time and most of the feats involve Warping it, Fusing it and etc, which, alongside Mundus feat, would make the God Tiers just solid Low 2-C, not "3-A, possibly Low 2-C"
 
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