A possible upgrade for Michael Demiurgos, Lucifer Morningstar, and the Endless

[Antvasima]

Note that this topic is strictly for evaluating the possible upgrades in question. Not for anything far beyond this degree. Any posts that attempt to hijack or diverge the thread will be deleted.

Basically, during the "Our Worlds At War" Post-Crisis Superman crossover, Professor Hamilton stated that the DC Multiverse likely has more than the 11 dimensions that scientific M-Theory propose.

Will Magnus also made a more suspicious statement about "12 and a third", but from a geometric viewpoint, it doesn't make any sense for an object to possess partial height, width, or length, so we can probably ignore that.

[1]

The issue is that during the much later "Multiversity" event, Grant Morrison created a map of the DC Multiverse, in which Destiny of the Endless is displayed outside of and beyond it.

[2]

The question therefore is what conclusions that we should draw from this? Should we upgrade all of the Endless, along with Lucifer Morningstar and Michael Demiurgos (who are both supposedly far stronger than Dream/Morpheus) to "At least Low 1-B" (At least 12-Dimensional), or even place them, The Presence, The Great Evil Beast, and The Source at 1-B outright (higher than 12-Dimensional)?

In conjunction, should we also adjust the tiers for Cosmic Armor Superma and Mandrakk?

 

[Promestein]

I have heard of fractional dimensions and such before, but I am not sure how they work, exactly, nor am I sure if they are easily quantifiable.

Anyways, based on the other evidence here, I agree on a rating of "At least Low 1-B". That seems to be the safest tiering?

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Hmm. I think i saw or read about Lucifer being above Death of the Endless or something like that.....hmm.....

Anyways, i agree that the Endless could be higher up to "At least Low 1-B" cause i think i recall reading online about them being equal to each other, yeah? Michael and Lucifer are a definite as both are equal to one another and i presume they are even with The Endless as well?

Not sure about those like the Source and Presence and such. I'm tempted to say yes based on this but i'm still unsure atm....maybe more leaning onto yes still, however....

 

[LordAizenSama]

hmm.. how does At least Low 1-B, Likely 1-B sound? if not i'd say At least Low 1-B is good

 

[Basilisk1995]

At least Low 1-B for all of them sounds good. We should take out the unknown parts as now we know they are at least 12-D.

But have a question Thouught Robot/CAS and Mandrakk exists in monitor space. Now is monitor space beyond 12-D multiverse of DC? If that's the case then shouldn't existing in monitor space be at least 13-D feat and thus 1-B??

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if I understood correctly, Monitor space is just the highest dimension of the regular multiverse. So, unlike Destiny, who was shown above it, it does not seem to beyond the multiverse, just at the top.

 

[Basilisk1995]

Ohh. In that case CAS and Mandrakk is At least Low 1-B (or just Low 1-B since they are not likely above it) IMO. But if destiny is beyond the multiverse I think he should be 1-B (as at least 13-D). The source is also shown to be outside the multiverse (look at the bottom of the map) so he is 1-B as well. I dunno how this works for The Presence and The Great Evil Beast (I don't find them on the map) but maybe they should also be 1-B. IMHO.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. What complicates this is that during Neil Gaiman's latest Sandman story, Dream of the Endless was unable to easily prevent the destruction of even a single universe. However, there are lots of enormous inconsistencies within both Marvel and DC.

 

[Basilisk1995]

A merely 2-A (or even a powerful 2-C) character should logically easily be able to stop the destruction of a single universe. So even though I haven't read it myself I think it's just another plot point which we find so many times in both DC and Marvel considering everything else suggests him to be 1-B.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. The problem is that this was the creator of the character writing the story.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

It's possible the author doesn't know how dimensional theory applies to the attack potency of a character leading to a poor portrayal(PIS) as is the case with Blackholes in fiction.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it seems more likely that the original author, Neil Gaiman, did not intend his characters to be as powerful as later writers, in this case Mike Carey and Grant Morrison, displayed them to be. Still, we usually go by the higher showing in cases such as this.

 

[Jockey-1337]

It is a good idea.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

It's possible the author doesn't know how dimensional theory applies to the attack potency of a character leading to a poor portrayal(PIS) as is the case with Blackholes in fiction.

to be honest, the dimensional theory did come from generally following how fictional authors potray higher dimensionals 99 percent of the time


the tiny fraction might or might not do the same, and that is where the problem comes in

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Ah, I see.

 

[Mandrakk_The_Dark_Monitor]

Well, if I understood correctly, Monitor space is just the highest dimension of the regular multiverse. So, unlike Destiny, who was shown above it, it does not seem to beyond the multiverse, just at the top.

To my knowledge Mandrakk and Thought Robot were shown to be above the Multiverse and limbo residing the monitor space which is the TRULY infinite space that the Primal Monitor embodies isn't it? That can be anywhere from 1-B to 1-A from the sound of it. Also the Monitors live in the Bleed so how are we to deal with that?

Also don't forget that Lucifer is suspected of killing the Presence so... there's that.

 

[Antvasima]

@TLT1 This is off-topic, but we mainly use our system because of basic geometry, and the authors who are sensible enough to adhere to it.

@Mandrakk No. As far as I know, the Monitor space is just the highest dimension of the DC Multiverse. Not the "blank page" that the Primal Monitor embodies. In any case, you are doing exactly what I told you not to do at the top of the page.

 

[Antvasima]

So, are everybody fine with these upgrades?

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

I am fine with it

 

[The_Everlasting]

I'm fine with it.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay then. I will get to changing the pages once I am done with the backlog.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Aite/

 

[Zensum]

Sounds good

 

[Antvasima]

I think that was all. I am going to bed now, but if I forgot any of DC's cosmic entities, please mention it in my talk page.