A lazy man and his gigantic text (Guardian Downgrade and Additions)

[Archaron]

Now let's fix this damn AP.

Well let's start this, this review will not be so great, necessarily just propose a few things.

Powers and Abilities
First I would like to propose a new resistance, thanks to the new expansion I had access to: Metaphysical (Bleed) Resistence, also add Regenerationn/Resurrection Negation, we have two clear factors for this, the thorn, who has already killed a guardia and red death a weapon that is feared by the vanguard and known for killing guardians.

AP
At least Solar System (same motif listed in the profile) At most Universe level+, as we know the guardian has a varied level of AP, but his true height would be that. When cayde fell died, somehow a throne-world was built over his death for hiraks, as we know a throne world is a separate and proper dimension that lies in the ascending plane, a under the command of the one who demands at the apex of the sword logic.

Another important factor is that when the guardian fought against oryx, his light was subjugated by the sword logic of oryx, he should have been taken by his will and assumed the throne, but the guardian itself did not (Remembering that the light itself is a possibly omnipresent entity, since it lives in all things and places, and even its herald the traveler, was able to leave the void that surrounds all things and that goes beyond even the space time.). In the raid during the journeys, there is no group of guardians is simply one versus oryx, I realized this recently in the new incursion of destiny 2, and in the words of toland, ie was the guardian against oryx and not a group, the group being one game mechanics.

Every user of a throne world is universe+ by nature, and of course those who can generate one like the cayde, does not necessarily make it at that level, but that it can combat entities at that level, since that is how sword logic works, the force of cayde that generated a throne world is what the force that the sword logic asked to create a throne world for its carrier.

As the normal throne world is in the ascendent plane (less oryx and crota, which brought to the material world only than obviously diminished), it he lives among the dimensional planes, so much so that oryx had a dimensional lock to move between the "dimensions".

Conclusion
For more details I believe that a blog is necessary but this is more than enough to explain the level of the guardian being Low 2-C scaled to others, such as Oryx, Crota, Hiraks, the example of strength of the cayde based on sword logic and so on. And I still forgot to quote, that oryx and ascendent plane, is possibly a 5-D creature and realm, since the vexs can not comprehend it, and they are naturally timeless creatures.

 

[Wokistan]

I thought this was going to happen after Oryx was done? Guardian and a lot of others scale to his material form.

 

[Archaron]

I would yes expect to do this in oryx, but I have to withdraw quickly this 2-A is getting on my nerves. Both Oryx (and others of hive) and Yul have statement of 4-B in material form.

 

[Wokistan]

2-A, regardless of whether or not we count vex sims, isn't legit since nothing really affects it on a 2-A scale. Osiris just has an absurd amount of sensories, and Panoptes has only been shown affecting individual timelines. It's nigh omniscient regarding the IF and has near total sway over it so it can still administrate the 2-A space, but it itself isn't 2-A.

 

[Archaron]

Welp, this is debatable, but true. Panoptes not only controls the forest and monitors, but leaves subordinates in each of them who can manipulate individually whole reality, being the daemons.

 

[Wokistan]

"Controlling the Local situation"

So it's above baseline low 2-C if we consider Vex space legit then, from that. Acting through daemons is probably how it officiates an infinite amount of universes.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I personally think the Guardians AP should be Unknown.

The profile should also be split up into 3 for each main class and keys for subclass.

 

[Wokistan]

There's going to be 3 different files, as Warlocks for example have other abilities (Mid godly D1 Warlock lol) that the others do not. Guardians can switch between subclass though, so we don't really need that degree of separation. D1 should be separate from D2 though.

AP doesn't really need to be unknown. There's several things in the range of tiers 5-4, and this is the strongest Guardian minus like Osiris.

 

[Archaron]

@Wok

He itself has the capabilities of the daemons, but it is, it acts in the infinite realities through them since it is the axis mind that besides being the main one commands all simultaneously.

@Sigurd

It makes no sense by unknown, when it has feats for scalable and own. This has no relevance the PC can dominate all classes, and there is no main one.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Main class is Hunter,Titan,Warlock and each have vastly different abilities,it would just bloat the profiles and make it incomprehensible if theyre all in 1.

Unknown would make sense,as they're quite inconsistent but I'm neutral on this.

But the Guardians speed though FTL based off dodging Sleeper?what is the source of this.

 

[Wokistan]

Yeah Hunter Titan and Warlock should be separate, I was saying keys for subclasses isn't necessary.

Sleeper's a laser and one of the few things that has travel time, hunter dodge can dodge stuff that doesn't have travel time, though those are generally anywhere from relativistic to FTL so if someone happens to know the baseline for stuff like that that'd be great.

 

[Wokistan]

Could do something like : "Varies. At least 5-C, likely 4-B at their peak".

Not sure how much I believe in low 2-C non Osiris Guardians as of now though. They beat Oryx through drastically weakening him before the fight began then using his own power against him. You only really damage him in the end when he's about to die anyways.

 

[Archaron]

But they are not all in 1 only, why do you think it's called "The Guardian (Hunter)", most guardians do have the same range of powers and abilities, with only a few minor differences.

Welp, if you are neutral by okay own opinion, okay, but do not deny the fact that they have varying and not unknown level.

 

[Archaron]

Could do something like : "Varies. At least 5-C, likely 4-B at their peak".
Not sure how much I believe in low 2-C non Osiris Guardians as of now though. They beat Oryx through drastically weakening him before the fight began then using his own power against him. You only really damage him in the end when he's about to die anyways.

I agree with "varies", but... He himself held out all oryx obstacles, and even weakening him, they just left him vulnerable weaker not, same thing applies to crota.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Varies is fine with me.

@Wokistan

You would 1st have to prove the laser is light speed,being a laser isn't enough. Then you would have to prove the Hunter scales to it,even though he never dodged in canon,you could maybe get a calc of someone in a crucible match firing it and hunter dodging it assuming it's quantifiable,and I beleive the baseline is rel but it all depends on context.

Also assuming all is good with this,Titans nor Warlocks would scale to the speed as Hunters are the fastest(without titan skating kek).

 

[Wokistan]

I don't see how Sleeper contradicts any of the light standards.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Well what evidence do we have its light speed,besides the fact it's a laser like many other destiny weapons.

 

[Archaron]

@Sigurd

I hope you're not interpreting the light as mere "photons" by limiting the speed of light, because it technically does not work that well.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I'm merely going by the rules for verification of light speed.

 

[Archaron]

For this you would have to prove that the light of the guardian are mere "photons" since the cosmology of the game itself refutes this.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

You mean the Light as in source of power? I'm talking about the sleeper stimulant lol,The Light itself is clearly FTL based off the end of base game D2 where it spreads throughout the solar system pretty fast.

 

[Archaron]

Oh! Sorry for my rudeness, but then, I need to apply the review to both the AP and both skills, if you guys have nothing against, I'll appreciate if could approve it.

(This 2-A is getting on my nerves, really.)

 

[Wokistan]

It being a laser is all you need if it's not contradictory to the guidelines. It's not like that's an interpretation either, the gun straight up calls itself a laser and doesn't behave like any other fusions which are explicitly not.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Omg no that isn't all you need to be officially light..

 

[Wokistan]

A laser is by definition light. There was also some gun stated to fire sunbeams, can't remember the name.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Lasers are the most common attempts at light speed in fiction itself,being called light isn't enough on this wiki.

It needs to fit several criteria to indicate it moves at the speed of light.There is also that somehow they're randomly scaled to it,which I assume is based off of random crucible matches,but even so you could hardly call that dodging as 9/10 the sleeper hits and kills you.Its all inconsistent with the fact that they use sparrows to traverse a planet.The only thing involving FTL Guardians are the ships they have because it's used to traverse the solar system.

 

[Wokistan]

FTL's mainly a combat speed/reactions thing, I've seen the list of criteria before (Dark souls SS threads rip) and Sleeper seems to fit the bill for them. Things generally hit rather than get dodged because it is an FPS and you can shoot someone without you knowing about it. When you can see a dude with a sleeper and are a hunter or even just have something like blink on, its really not hard to dodge Sleeper shots.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

That's gameplay mechanics though,and the Sleeper is often regarded as undodgeable by the community because it's pretty much instant,besides its best we find an instance from a clip and get it calculated as dodging light varies quite a bit assuming they'll accept it as real light.

Then you have cases like Shielder Titans and Arc Strider Hunters outpacing everyone else,so are they FTL? We should ask Mr.Bambu what he thinks as he is a calc group familiar with Destiny.

 

[Wokistan]

Sleeper's not regarded as undodgable though? Shadestep gives I frames through weapons that are actually hitscan, and Sleeper is decidedlt not instant.

Probably just treated the same way as an unspecified speed amp is, though some stuff like Dawnblades and D1 titan skating could get pretty ridiculous.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I don't think we can use Titan Skating as an offical thing,as it's pretty much an exploit.

 

[Wokistan]

I think it was immortalized in lore somewhere, and using the thrusters on your jump pack to go a direction makes sense in general. I don't think there's any amps that would cause a tier jump in speed at all even when considering dawnblades and the like though.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

That would be interesting if it was added to lore offically lol,anyways i've asked Bambu to comment here on the laser discussion we were having.

Besides that I think the Guardian should have Type 8 Immortality shouldn't he,it's quite blatant.

 

[Wokistan]

Yeah, type 8 makes sense.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

What makes it light, aside from being a laser?

 

[Archaron]

Oh god... your guys discussion is going forward, but will this revision be stagnant?

 

[Wokistan]

I cannot find the link to the guidelines themselves, but nothing from what I remember of them was contradicted. Doesn't bend or curve or anything, penetrates through things instead of knocking them back, reflects off of surfaces, etc.

 

[Wokistan]

Also Thorn already had rez negation, and I gave it to Red death as a possible. It's on the Exotic blog I need to finish (D2 and Touch of Malice).

 

[Wokistan]

It's also classed as a heat based weapon, which accurately reflects how damage would be done with such a weapon.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Wok, that would prove it, I think. That said, do you have stuff to back that up? If so it should be good unless there's some major contradictory point.

 

[Wokistan]

I don't have the gun yet in D2, though I could boot up my old Xbox and clip something in D1. You can probably just search up "destiny sleeper simulant" or something though.