A lazy man and his gigantic text (Guardian Downgrade and Additions)

[Mr. Bambu]

Bump after an hour?

Also yeah. I agree different keys should be had. And that Low 2-C should be a "Possibly".

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Why does that scale to the guardian exactly?
The Vex take many many decades likely to terraform a planet with their wild ass technology.

The Taken Ritual is their more context to this?,as I don't understand why the Guardian would scale to a ritual completely unrelated to him.

^

 

[Mr. Bambu]

They killed the entire group of beings performing the ritual. And we can't assume timeframe on Vex terraforming, just that it happens over an unknown period of time. Too many factors to consider.

 

[Archaron]

Well, it's going to be sorted by keys, so later I'll edit the guardian's profile, but we need more agreeds if not, I can not apply what was discussed and suggested here.

 

[Antvasima]

@Wokistan

What are the TLDR conclusions here?

Somebody should probably ask Azathoth to comment in any case.

 

[Archaron]

As the wokistan has not yet replied, and as owner of the thread and revision, I hope you do not mind me meddling.

@Ant

Well, we decided to separate by keys (which does not make sense, but whatever), add the additions and the AP gets more or less like this:

AP:Varies, at least 5-C, at most 4-B, likely Low 2-C.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[CNBA3]

I think that the guardians should be atleast star level from for AP with Nova Bomb, having the the power of a collapsing star, and being scaled to various enemy champions such as the Court of Oryx which they scale from destroying the Gift Mast which was a construct from a polar jet.

and after checking, for Oryx he should at least scale to Massively FLT from Phobos to the Dreadnaught, as what his Echo did was not teleportation, his teleportation takes more time and is much more luminous with taken light. which checking from different both the cinematic and from the boss battle which is labled rapid movement is much more suddle and less flashy.

here are links for rapid-movement and teleportation

As for Osiris, I would not doubt he is Multiversal with his ability to hold off Panoptese, as we can see he had to use several copies of himself just to stop him fro deleting the Guardian.

And for Guardina FTL, there is the Prometheus Lens which is basically concentrated light with a prsimic crystal into a focused beam which causes combustion.

 

[Wokistan]

Nova bomb can be used to support 4-B by having a tier 4 description in general

Maybe. I don't really know. Sounds ok from how it's described, but I can't view the links right now.

Panoptes is probably just low 2-C with a huge range, which Osiris would scale to. This is under the assumption we use Vex space for AP.

Yeah there are other light based weapons, sleeper was just the one that came to mind first and sleeper is more blatant.

 

[CNBA3]

Ok, for vex AP feats I would honest put unknown for the most part until I can utilize other calcs for some of their feats

 

[Archaron]

Within the infinite forest, the reach and power of Panoptes would be 2-A, he it is the mind that looks and manipulates everything within it. Of course it is an isolated feat only for the axis minds, and only within their constructions.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

So it is sorta like computers being 2-A within themselves.

Panoptes having infinite simulations isn't really an AP feat I agree with but oh well.

 

[CNBA3]

Something like that, according to one of the lore that describes it, the simulations in the Infinite Forest are so perfect that they are indistinguishable from what is called reality, they can be felt, tasted and pass lifetimes in them. these infinite realitis grow in the machine like fruit in a forest of trees. they are of a fractural expansion which is nigh unmeasurable

 

[GalaxianAegis]

I personally believe that we should split Guardian profiles up from Destiny 1 and 2 in order to make the profiles more coherent. Especially because some abilities aren't in both games and it wouldn't make sense for them to exist at the same time.

On the topic of the Vex simulations, I believe that they are simulating actual timelines that have real implications within the Infinite Forest or Vault of Glass. Especially if it's generating these infinite realities and consistently maintaining them. The Vex have consistently been shown to be stronger inside of their own realms anyways.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I agree.

In that case, Guardian should receive the 40k treatment. It should be stated they are only that tier inside of the Vex realm. I still doubt the rating, but whatever.

 

[CNBA3]

We should be careful with Vex pages though as there are at least two events that Vex can have actual effect or power with their simulations or reality bending powers outside their realms, which is with their invasion of the Ascendent Realm and with the incident with the 4 Ishtar Scientists where indirectly effected by a Vex Goblins' 227 simulations where the vex goblin is treated as god, the scientists knew the simulated selves weren't them but they con't help but succumb to them somehow

 

[Wokistan]

Quria also had an affect outside the Vex space with it's sims, and it also adapted to the Sword Logic. It's probably among the strongest of Vex, and even stalemated Crota and the Deathsinger twins for a hundred years. Too bad it had the misfortune to fight Oryx.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

With all that evidence then, I don't really think there is any argument to be had on whether the range applies outside or not. It's pretty clear that they do affect reality once the Vex is strong enough.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Actually that makes an argument for the other way. Their powers aren;t universe destroying or creating outside of their own realms. That combined with every other feat in the world being an anti-feat to Tier 2 makes me extremely hesitant for these unwarranted ratings.

Having simulations feel real is a feat of illusions, not AP. Reality warping is just that, and unless it is shown to be universe-affecting range wise, then it isn't a Tier 2 feat.

 

[Wokistan]

It's not just that they feel real, they legitimately are in spaces of their own dominance. Quria's not a normal vex though, so comparisons to that aren't entirely accurate to the whole. Osiris was worried about the Vex eventually figuring out how to extrapolate their hegemony over their own spaces to reality, which Quria was able to do to part of the Ascendant Realm until Oryx came back to stomp it. That's what they were going for in the VoG, but they're not there yet.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

So in their own realm, they have power. In other realms, not so much, they just have vastly weaker versions.

Default back to my previous statement about the 40k treatment.

 

[Wokistan]

So theoretically if the Vex are strong enough they can affect reality as they affect their own spaces, shown by how Quria stalemated the 3 hive god children of Oryx in their own space by bleeding over Vex space, but nobody's like that anymore and the Guardians plan to keep it that way.

 

[Wokistan]

Yeah I'd agree with vex tier 2 having the stipulation that that's within Vex space. Like the high 1-B skarbrand and fateweaver keys.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

Should we put a note on the Panoptes, Infinite Mind and Atheon, Time's Conflux pages indicating this then?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

So theoretically if the Vex are strong enough they can affect reality as they affect their own spaces, shown by how Quria stalemated the 3 hive god children of Oryx in their own space by bleeding over Vex space, but nobody's like that anymore and the Guardians plan to keep it that way.

So, when outside of their own space, they stalemated beings with Tier 4 showings

Ergo they are Tier 2?

 

[Wokistan]

Vex aren't tier 2 outside their own space yet, but I was just clarifying that some can sim shit outside their own spaces.

 

[CNBA3]

Honestly for any AP or Dura feats, they should scale that to those existing in gut ematerial realm. And any other feats such as the infinite forest should be noted that to be in the infinite forest or VOG should be still scale but in their realms.

However that is all depending when combined with the power of the Dark Heart from the Black Garden which is what the main villain in the D1 vanilla campaign which allowed the vex to take their reality powers outside their space and into the material realm. But that is ultimately up to you guys on how you want to play this.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

I personally think that the solution we have of scaling the Vex differently depending on the environment is the best solution until more information is revealed in further expansions, games, etc.

Those Vex that have showings outside of a specific realm will scale to whatever they encountered. i.e. those that stalemated the Hive in their Ascendant Realm scale there.

 

[Archaron]

Should we put a note on the Panoptes, Infinite Mind and Atheon, Time's Conflux pages indicating this then?

Already has a note in the profile, and the key itself is just one being inside the forest, but I think it may be Low 2-C outside it, tomorrow I see it better.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

In addition, I think the profile structure being greatly improved will help with some of the problems. They are currently riddled with grammatical errors and I'm sure that makes it harder for other people to understand.

I am prepared to help with said changes immediately as we come to conclusions about how we are tiering characters. The current discussion I believe is specific tiers for Vex outside of their spaces. If anyone has more evidence or suggestions alongside what Archaron presents, now would be the time to present it.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Outside of their realms they've been shown to match Tier 4s. I doubt they are Tier 2 outside of Vex Space.

 

[CNBA3]

That would depend though with being able to utilize the Dark Heart which allows them to take their powers outside their realms.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

I believe that the Black Heart and the Black Garden are special circumstances. The Black Garden itself is in a dimension removed from the normal space-time of the universe, so it's very likely different circumstances than what applies in the main plane of existence the games take place in.

 

[CNBA3]

What I mean is that what the lore tells about what the Black Heart, the Black Garden and the Vault of Glass are somewhat connected where at full power it can inhabit the Vex vessels to take the reality bending powers outside of the Vault of Glass into the physical universe, which is what prompted the Exo Stranger to come to our timeline to have us kill the Black Heart before it reached full power.

 

[Archaron]

It's I was right somehow, I'll explain.

Every axis mind by nature is Low 2-C, inside or outside its simulations. Panoptes was created along with the infinite forest, and it is the mind that manipulates it, obviously with both the daemons and itself. Osiris mentions that the vexs and the forest have only one purpose, to create a reality where only the vexs reign and exist, all the paths within an infinity of realities leads only to a path, the "dark future", in that future neither the light and neither darkness exist anymore, within infinite realities all take in only one place, panoptes is the mind of the infinite forest logically one is connected to the other, the future would inevitably be that way if it were not for the guardia who as already quoted in grimoires and against atheon, they make their own fate, so it stands to reason that it can go against fate presupposed by infinite futures.

Vexs can manipulate everything within their simulations, panoptes was able to give a negative status in the guardian even if it is not data from the forest, when understood and simulated there are no differences from the real to the false, even the scientists who studied the vexs were distinguished whether or not they were simulations, oryx when Quria simulated him as Aurash, he knew of what he was like, of his memories, of his will at that time, and of the difference of how different he is from the future. Everything within the simulations is real to the point of being a false real, so to speak.

And also do not compare quria with any other axis mind, it itself is superior to them, from the moment it was manifested by the will of the vexs, it was normal, but shortly after using the sword logic, it became not only stronger but more astute and tactical since he spent years in that war. He consumed worms, killed hundreds of thousands of the hive over time, and even though he was not himself but his subordinates he still profits from their deaths, and various other hive mores that benefited him in every way.

Vexs can logically simulate galaxies, universes, entities, and so on as long as they can understand, and can make this simulation real and maybe, use them up offensively, everything can be simulated as long as it is understood for he.

Conclusion: Any Axis Mind is Low 2-C, in and out of its simulations, Panoptes is 2-A, and by having destroyed light and dark (sky and deep), no matter how it should escalate to a "likely higher" .

 

[Wokistan]

If Vex minds were Low 2-C outside their sims, they would have won already, at least until they had to deal with Oryx. That is the end goal of the VOG, to extrapolate their tier 2 status to reality. Panoptes definitely has 2-A range but idk about AP.

 

[CNBA3]

If Vex minds were Low 2-C outside their sims, they would have won already, at least until they had to deal with Oryx. That is the end goal of the VOG, to extrapolate their tier 2 status to reality. Panoptes definitely has 2-A range but idk about AP.

It would have been that way if it wasn't for the Exo Stranger that they had destroyed the Black Heart before it could bring their powers outside the VOG

 

[GalaxianAegis]

I'm not sure how I feel about Low 2-C for every Axis Mind. I strongly feel that this should only apply to specific Axis Minds that have displayed their abilities outside of their realm such as Quria. Several of the other Axis Minds are defeated by Gaurdians under normal circumstances. The other Axis Minds should be 4-B scaling to the Guardians, a possibly higher is the most they should get.. That's the most reasonable solution imo.

I agree with 2-A Panoptes given that we've extensively proven how real the abilities are in context. I think that's been heavily established.

 

[Wokistan]

Keep in mind Quria also has the Sword Logic to aid her, and is not tier 2 outside an ascendant realm or Vex space. Idek if Quria's tier 2 in Ascendant space, since I'm pretty sure it was material Oryx to stomp her. They should all be low 2-C in vex space, but the question is if we scale guardians to that. Someone ask azzy to comment here yet? He was very against 2-A Panoptes and the usage of vex stuff.


Panoptes didn't affect the 2-A space on a 2-A scale though, it can just administrate it through proxies.

 

[Archaron]

@Galaxian Yes you are right, but the leading network leaders such as VoG, nessus and IF, come in as Low 2-C.