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Claire FRA
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A fire elementalist tries to catch a fire spirit
- Thread starter Huesito88
- Start date
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It's time to make wall of text:
AP: Well, kotori has enough AP to literally One shot Claire, due to that, i really don't find a solution for claire, it's true that she have the number advantage but we already saw kotori against a bunch of opponents (500 Clones much stronger than Claire in the Novel), it's not a problem since Kotori can literally One Shot both Claire and her cat (i don't remember his/her name).
Hax: Better this time, Claire has usefull haxes like slight Insinctive reaction and her partial dura neg but the former is nothing new against spirits, Kotori can easily regenerate if she is injured by this so i don't find a solution for rinslet to put down Kotori since all of his arsenal are nullified by the Nullification, Regenerationn and the Durability Gap. In the other side, Kotori's fire manipulation seem to be useless aginst rinslet (same for rinslet) but she can use her spatial manipulation to literally crush rinslet with a spacequacke, range isn't a problem, she already fight characters with much higher range.
Durability: Well it's simple, Claire has no way to injure Kotori, first she has her Astral dress which Null, plus, her regneration and finally the Durability Gap between both, in the other hand, Kotori can just cut in half Claire with a simple attack (since rinslet fight in H2H with her weapon)
Lifting Strength: Well i don't see how this is usefull but Kotori's lifting strenght is superior since she is physically Superior to Origami who lifted a building (i'll just want to calc this that why the profile don't specify that)
Strategy: Bind her opponent insn't bad, the problem is Kotori already escaped from this sort of thing, plus the astral dress just protect from this projectiles and like @Golden say, both are equal in strategy.
Other: People talked about fight Kotori until she go in berserk but firstly, i really think that claire doesn't have the time to escape to kotori before she One Shot/she goe nd berserk and secondly even in berserk, claire doesnt win, Berserk kotori is just ultra focused on the opponent and kill him without notice the other stuff around, it's not a berserk like Ryuko or other peoples like that. Versatility isn't a factor since she can't even put Kotori down before getting OS.
I vote for Kotori.
AP: Well, kotori has enough AP to literally One shot Claire, due to that, i really don't find a solution for claire, it's true that she have the number advantage but we already saw kotori against a bunch of opponents (500 Clones much stronger than Claire in the Novel), it's not a problem since Kotori can literally One Shot both Claire and her cat (i don't remember his/her name).
Hax: Better this time, Claire has usefull haxes like slight Insinctive reaction and her partial dura neg but the former is nothing new against spirits, Kotori can easily regenerate if she is injured by this so i don't find a solution for rinslet to put down Kotori since all of his arsenal are nullified by the Nullification, Regenerationn and the Durability Gap. In the other side, Kotori's fire manipulation seem to be useless aginst rinslet (same for rinslet) but she can use her spatial manipulation to literally crush rinslet with a spacequacke, range isn't a problem, she already fight characters with much higher range.
Durability: Well it's simple, Claire has no way to injure Kotori, first she has her Astral dress which Null, plus, her regneration and finally the Durability Gap between both, in the other hand, Kotori can just cut in half Claire with a simple attack (since rinslet fight in H2H with her weapon)
Lifting Strength: Well i don't see how this is usefull but Kotori's lifting strenght is superior since she is physically Superior to Origami who lifted a building (i'll just want to calc this that why the profile don't specify that)
Strategy: Bind her opponent insn't bad, the problem is Kotori already escaped from this sort of thing, plus the astral dress just protect from this projectiles and like @Golden say, both are equal in strategy.
Other: People talked about fight Kotori until she go in berserk but firstly, i really think that claire doesn't have the time to escape to kotori before she One Shot/she goe nd berserk and secondly even in berserk, claire doesnt win, Berserk kotori is just ultra focused on the opponent and kill him without notice the other stuff around, it's not a berserk like Ryuko or other peoples like that. Versatility isn't a factor since she can't even put Kotori down before getting OS.
I vote for Kotori.
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Kotori FRA
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Nah vote Claire for FRA.
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I've precisely answered those reasons, they are no longer valid now.
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Ok so this time, it's the last key of Claire? why not:
Since it's the last key, she should be much stronger than her first key but kotori still have the AP/Dura advantage scaling from a borderline low 7-C feat, the fire attacks and haxes of Claire are countered by a better dura, the astral dress's null and the Regenerationn, which make claire beating Kotori with raw power almost impossible
K.O her is also impossible because of the regen and the AP of Kotori and the bind is nulled for my reason above, her only solution is incap but it would be very hard against kotori since she outclass her in almost all stats
Kotori will have problem with instinctive reaction but she still have long ranged projectiles. She also have spacequake which bypass durability and crush her so she have a OHK move in this situation. Talking about weaknesses, Claire's weaknest seem more important here.
But Claire still have the number advantage but not enough against kotori which is able to fight a great number of opponents at the same time
Well Kotori still handle this but this time in an higher difficulty
Also, all votes are reset since you change the condition of the fight.
Since it's the last key, she should be much stronger than her first key but kotori still have the AP/Dura advantage scaling from a borderline low 7-C feat, the fire attacks and haxes of Claire are countered by a better dura, the astral dress's null and the Regenerationn, which make claire beating Kotori with raw power almost impossible
K.O her is also impossible because of the regen and the AP of Kotori and the bind is nulled for my reason above, her only solution is incap but it would be very hard against kotori since she outclass her in almost all stats
Kotori will have problem with instinctive reaction but she still have long ranged projectiles. She also have spacequake which bypass durability and crush her so she have a OHK move in this situation. Talking about weaknesses, Claire's weaknest seem more important here.
But Claire still have the number advantage but not enough against kotori which is able to fight a great number of opponents at the same time
Well Kotori still handle this but this time in an higher difficulty
Also, all votes are reset since you change the condition of the fight.
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agree.Jasonsith said:
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"Pure Spirits" like tohka can't control spacequakes but Spirits who receved their power by Phantom can do it at will
770 tons is borderline Low 7-C
770 tons is borderline Low 7-C
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I don't remembers
Still even if we cut in half this result, she still One shot peoples (in sealed form) who can casually beat a dozen of peoples with 385 Tons
Still even if we cut in half this result, she still One shot peoples (in sealed form) who can casually beat a dozen of peoples with 385 Tons
GoldenScorpions
He/Him- 3,093
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Oh, boy, here we go. Those argument are for Base Claire.
AP: Kotori doesn't have "enough AP to one-shot Claire", even if Claire is at base. I saw the calcs you did for DAL, and like Huesito reminded, the highest value found was 1.61E+12 J / 385 tons. I'd hardly call that a one-shot. And considering Claire can beat other 8-A elementalists with little to no difficulty, which would put her a bit above baseline, it's even less of a one-shot.
Numbers: Tbh, your argument doesn't mean much. You use "We've seen Kotori defeat many opponents at once" as a justification for why it's not a problem for her to fight 2v1. I can do the same: I can use "We've seen Claire defeat opponents who are stronger than her and are melee combatants" as a justification for why Kotori having more AP than Claire and being a melee fighter isn't a problem. My point is it goes both ways. Both have experience fighting against and defeating the type of opponent they are facing in this matchup. Doesn't mean they become invulnerable to such powers/tactics.
Hax: Kinda the same argument. Having already fought against someone with Instinctive Reactions doesn't magically render all opponents with Instinctive Reactions useless against Kotori. If she was a century-old sage who'd fought for all her life, then sure, the experience would be so massive she could easily work around it; that's not the case. Of course, it goes both ways; Claire has fought against regenerating opponents, but it doesn't make able to brush off all future regen users. Every time Scarlet absorbs fire (either in Whip or Cat form), she gets stronger, so that's something to keep in mind. How strong are spacequakes comparatively to Kotori's AP?
Durability: Cool, Astral Dress nulifies damage. It doesn't nullify binding, vibrations, status effects or, if it comes down to it, dr negation.
Lifting Strength: Not a single DAL profile mentions anything beyond Superhuman for this stat. Every combat-oriented elementalist is around Class 25, at least. You say "lifting strenght is superior", but I don't anything referring to that on any DAL profile.
Strategy: Considering Claire's LS, her fighting styles are binding and analyzing-before-striking, and Scarlet/Flametongue getting stronger every it's being fed fire, I'd say Claire's chances aren't bad.
Others: Like mentioned above and on her profile, Claire's fighting style is long-term, drawn-out battles where she analyzes her opponent and wears them down, aka, she's used to drawing out fights and staying clear from her opponent. Kotori's Regenerationn is very much there, but Claire has access to healing, and regen doesn't restore lost stamina.
And please, let's not use the argument of "But this character has so much stamina that it will never be depleted". It's a dumb argument in situations where overall equal characters fight. If it's a human vs a superhuman, then it's applicable. But this is a fight between 2 superhumans, where both parties are serious about killing each other, and are in the same tier. There will be no holding back. As such, both will spend lots of energy/divine power/mana, as that's as much they'll have to spend in their attacks to be able to defeat the other. Both will progressively get tired over time, proportionally to how much energy/mana they spend.
If Kotori's "Berserk Mode" doesn't make her: a) lose her senses, b) lose control of her actions/powers, c) turn insane, d) become uncontrollable, e) become dumb as bricks, f) destroy everything around with no regard, or g) any combination of those, then I'm sorry, it's not a Berserk Mode. Literally, the point of turning Berserk is to trade something for an important power boost, aka, there's always a side-effect to going berserk. You seem to imply none of those happen to Kotori, and if that's the case, it ain't berserk.
AP: Kotori doesn't have "enough AP to one-shot Claire", even if Claire is at base. I saw the calcs you did for DAL, and like Huesito reminded, the highest value found was 1.61E+12 J / 385 tons. I'd hardly call that a one-shot. And considering Claire can beat other 8-A elementalists with little to no difficulty, which would put her a bit above baseline, it's even less of a one-shot.
Numbers: Tbh, your argument doesn't mean much. You use "We've seen Kotori defeat many opponents at once" as a justification for why it's not a problem for her to fight 2v1. I can do the same: I can use "We've seen Claire defeat opponents who are stronger than her and are melee combatants" as a justification for why Kotori having more AP than Claire and being a melee fighter isn't a problem. My point is it goes both ways. Both have experience fighting against and defeating the type of opponent they are facing in this matchup. Doesn't mean they become invulnerable to such powers/tactics.
Hax: Kinda the same argument. Having already fought against someone with Instinctive Reactions doesn't magically render all opponents with Instinctive Reactions useless against Kotori. If she was a century-old sage who'd fought for all her life, then sure, the experience would be so massive she could easily work around it; that's not the case. Of course, it goes both ways; Claire has fought against regenerating opponents, but it doesn't make able to brush off all future regen users. Every time Scarlet absorbs fire (either in Whip or Cat form), she gets stronger, so that's something to keep in mind. How strong are spacequakes comparatively to Kotori's AP?
Durability: Cool, Astral Dress nulifies damage. It doesn't nullify binding, vibrations, status effects or, if it comes down to it, dr negation.
Lifting Strength: Not a single DAL profile mentions anything beyond Superhuman for this stat. Every combat-oriented elementalist is around Class 25, at least. You say "lifting strenght is superior", but I don't anything referring to that on any DAL profile.
Strategy: Considering Claire's LS, her fighting styles are binding and analyzing-before-striking, and Scarlet/Flametongue getting stronger every it's being fed fire, I'd say Claire's chances aren't bad.
Others: Like mentioned above and on her profile, Claire's fighting style is long-term, drawn-out battles where she analyzes her opponent and wears them down, aka, she's used to drawing out fights and staying clear from her opponent. Kotori's Regenerationn is very much there, but Claire has access to healing, and regen doesn't restore lost stamina.
And please, let's not use the argument of "But this character has so much stamina that it will never be depleted". It's a dumb argument in situations where overall equal characters fight. If it's a human vs a superhuman, then it's applicable. But this is a fight between 2 superhumans, where both parties are serious about killing each other, and are in the same tier. There will be no holding back. As such, both will spend lots of energy/divine power/mana, as that's as much they'll have to spend in their attacks to be able to defeat the other. Both will progressively get tired over time, proportionally to how much energy/mana they spend.
If Kotori's "Berserk Mode" doesn't make her: a) lose her senses, b) lose control of her actions/powers, c) turn insane, d) become uncontrollable, e) become dumb as bricks, f) destroy everything around with no regard, or g) any combination of those, then I'm sorry, it's not a Berserk Mode. Literally, the point of turning Berserk is to trade something for an important power boost, aka, there's always a side-effect to going berserk. You seem to imply none of those happen to Kotori, and if that's the case, it ain't berserk.
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AP: The highest value is 3,22 aKa 770 tons but if we arg about the fact that it's 385 Tons, okay, Clair beat other 8-A Baseline easily? okay, the problem is Kotori literally One shot peoples who esaily beat 770/385 tons, it isn't comparable to claire. even if we doesn't talk about a One shot, she still have a Massive AP advantage who allow her to beats easily Claire, Kotori can potentially One Shot.GoldenScorpions said:
Numbers:
Your exemple isn't valid since the only characters stronger than her got beaten by a entire team up with her friends, i just said that she is habituted to fight against a great number of opponent stronger than claire, nothing less, nothing more, you used the number as argument, i answered you that number isn't a problem against Kotori.
Hax:
It isn't even my arguments about Instinctive reaction, same for Regenerationn, and your argument doesn't solve the problem about her Regenerationn who make her hard to beat for claire. Spacequakes aren't really related to "strong" it's Spatial Manipulation which bypass durability by crushing space
Durability:
Yes, it doesn't counter that but, Vibration Manipulation need contact, this is the worst thing to do against a characters whith a weapon who can easily cut you in half, Same for Statut effect. for binding, i want to say No? (read my reason below)
Lifting Strength:
DAL characters's superhuman Lifting strenght are beyond this ranting, AST members can lift and throw entire buildings easily it's much larger than Claire's lifting strenght you added
Strategy:
Yes, i agree that her chance aren't bad, even if according to my small knowledge of this
Others: Like mentioned above and on her profile, Claire's fighting style is long-term, drawn-out battles where she analyzes her opponent and wears them down, aka, she's used to drawing out fights and staying clear from her opponent. Kotori's Regenerationn is very much there, but Claire has access to healing, and regen doesn't restore lost stamina.
Well, i still doubt about this fighting style according to my little knowledge about this show, Okay, Kotori's Regenerationn regenerate stamina as well, in the novel, after Shidou lost stamina after using Sandalphon, his stamina is recovered with Camael's flame, same for Mio who reduce the stamina and lifespan to zero, camael is able to regenerate that.
And please, let's not use the argument of "But this character has so much stamina that it will never be depleted". It's a dumb argument in situations where overall equal characters fight. If it's a human vs a...
Ok i guess
About berserk
Yep it isn't a "true" bloodlust, she just hardly want to kill the opponent by not losing her mind/sense or anything
GoldenScorpions
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One thing you seem to not take into account is that, this is Claire from the LN, not the anime. The anime adapted 3 volumes, and Claire's awakening doesn't happen until the start of Volume 11. As such, Base Claire is based on Vol.10, not Vol.3, until where the anime adapted, aka she's stronger than in the anime.
AP: What you're saying is Kotori (385 tons), can one-shot other characters (385 tons) who can themselves easily beat people that scale to 385 tons? Uhm, with what and how? So you're saying 385 tons > 385 tons > 385 tons... I don't follow. And I wouldn't liken a x2.5 gap to "massive AP advantage".
Numbers: I'm a bit confused. By "the only characters stronger than her got beaten by a entire team up with her friends", does "her" refer to Claire? If so, then look at the first part of this reply. This is Vol.10 Claire. In the span of 7 Volumes, Claire has participated in many more fights, and most of her opponents were stronger than her.
Hax: What I meant is that just bc Kotori has fought against characters with Instinctive Reactions (mind you, no DAL character has this listed on their profiles), doesn't mean she will not have trouble against characters with them. As simple as that. I don't know where you got the idea that Spatial Manipulation equals DR Negation
Durability: How does having a strong weapon in any way somehow negate Claire's use of Blood Aria? What? If anything, exactly because Kotori is more of a melee fighter, Claire will have more chances to use that spell on Kotori. Reminder Claire isn't ignorant when it comes to fighting melee opponents.
LS: Then where is it on their profiles?! Why is nothing listed? If there's proof the spirits can lift buildings, then add it on the profiles. Going from lifting an axe to a whole building is a pretty freaking big increase! Seriously.
Strategy: The answer is in your reply: "small knowledge". And of course Claire doesn't "go for the kill" in the series; the whole first 2 arcs are based around tournaments. You're not supposed to kill in tournaments. But that's besides the point; the fight uses SBA, so both girls are forced to go for the kill, just without ignoring tactics. Doesn't invalidate her use of long-term fighting + analyzing.
Others: Please, stop assuming things when you don't know much about the verse when you have "little knowledge". I don't assume things I don't know about DAL. I use what's at my disposal in the DAL profiles. And it's not my fault they are missing such crucial details. First, they apparently have building-level LS, then spacequakes are battle-applicable and somehow bypass DR, and now Regenerationn also restores stamina, and her berserk mode isn't a berserk mode, but a simple stat amp? Would've been nice to have all this on the profiles from the start.
AP: What you're saying is Kotori (385 tons), can one-shot other characters (385 tons) who can themselves easily beat people that scale to 385 tons? Uhm, with what and how? So you're saying 385 tons > 385 tons > 385 tons... I don't follow. And I wouldn't liken a x2.5 gap to "massive AP advantage".
Numbers: I'm a bit confused. By "the only characters stronger than her got beaten by a entire team up with her friends", does "her" refer to Claire? If so, then look at the first part of this reply. This is Vol.10 Claire. In the span of 7 Volumes, Claire has participated in many more fights, and most of her opponents were stronger than her.
Hax: What I meant is that just bc Kotori has fought against characters with Instinctive Reactions (mind you, no DAL character has this listed on their profiles), doesn't mean she will not have trouble against characters with them. As simple as that. I don't know where you got the idea that Spatial Manipulation equals DR Negation
Durability: How does having a strong weapon in any way somehow negate Claire's use of Blood Aria? What? If anything, exactly because Kotori is more of a melee fighter, Claire will have more chances to use that spell on Kotori. Reminder Claire isn't ignorant when it comes to fighting melee opponents.
LS: Then where is it on their profiles?! Why is nothing listed? If there's proof the spirits can lift buildings, then add it on the profiles. Going from lifting an axe to a whole building is a pretty freaking big increase! Seriously.
Strategy: The answer is in your reply: "small knowledge". And of course Claire doesn't "go for the kill" in the series; the whole first 2 arcs are based around tournaments. You're not supposed to kill in tournaments. But that's besides the point; the fight uses SBA, so both girls are forced to go for the kill, just without ignoring tactics. Doesn't invalidate her use of long-term fighting + analyzing.
Others: Please, stop assuming things when you don't know much about the verse when you have "little knowledge". I don't assume things I don't know about DAL. I use what's at my disposal in the DAL profiles. And it's not my fault they are missing such crucial details. First, they apparently have building-level LS, then spacequakes are battle-applicable and somehow bypass DR, and now Regenerationn also restores stamina, and her berserk mode isn't a berserk mode, but a simple stat amp? Would've been nice to have all this on the profiles from the start.
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It's simple to understand, she is able to one shot people who can easily beats characters with 385/770 tons, right? basically she one shot people who can easily beat characters stronger than claire.GoldenScorpions said:
Numbers:
I refer to the final fight in the anime, anyway, the point as been answered.
What I meant is that just bc Kotori has fought against characters with Instinctive Reactions (mind you, no DAL character has this listed on their profiles), doesn't mean she will not have trouble against characters with them. As simple as that. I don't know where you got the idea that Spatial Manipulation equals DR Negation
Yes, Spatial Manipulation is durability Negation when it focused on destructive capacity, Kurumi Tokisaki have Durability Neg via spacequake but it's pretty common. (if you want an explanation that why spatial manipulation = Durability negation, tell me)
How does having a strong weapon in any way somehow negate Claire's use of Blood Aria? What? If anything, exactly because Kotori is more of a melee fighter, Claire will have more chances to use that spell on Kotori. Reminder Claire isn't ignorant when it comes to fighting melee opponents.
Never said that, just go to a H2H fight against a guys who can cut you in half in one blow is a bad idea
Then where is it on their profiles?! Why is nothing listed? If there's proof the spirits can lift buildings, then add it on the profiles. Going from lifting an axe to a whole building is a pretty freaking big increase! Seriously.
I Just waiting an evaluation before make a LS on their profile, But yeah, they are officially Class M i can edits profile now but i'm busy
The answer is in your reply: "small knowledge". And of course Claire doesn't "go for the kill" in the series; the whole first 2 arcs are based around tournaments. You're not supposed to kill in tournaments. But that's besides the point; the fight uses SBA, so both girls are forced to go for the kill, just without ignoring tactics. Doesn't invalidate her use of long-term fighting + analyzing.
Again i doesn't invalidate her usual tactics, i just give my knowledge about the show, but in any case, both are relatively equal here so.
Please, stop assuming things when you don't know much about the verse when you have "little knowledge". I don't assume things I don't know about DAL. I use what's at my disposal in the DAL profiles. And it's not my fault they are missing such crucial details. First, they apparently have building-level LS, then spacequakes are battle-applicable and somehow bypass DR, and now Regenerationn also restores stamina, and her berserk mode isn't a berserk mode, but a simple stat amp? Would've been nice to have all this on the profiles from the start.
Okay you made some mistakes:
- I can use my knowledge about a verse that i know, even a bit, if it's invalidate in the novel? okay but i still can arg about fact i've saw in the anime.
- Spacequakes always being fight applicable, and yes, bypass dura
- Her berserk mode isn't even stats amp.
- Kotori's LS is above Claire so binding is nulled
- Claire doesn't have a way to incap or put down/kill Kotori
- Kotori have a "Massive" AP/Dura advantage
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