A "common misconceptions about the wiki" explanation page?

[OnePunchSaitama]

Wall of text
Okay that sums up without even acknowleding any of the mistakes present in the wiki itself.

Do you acknowledge any of the World Building before writing off that ever elusive dimensional tiering?(Domain Creation)

Do you acknwoledge the type systems which might be inherent in those domains?

What happens when characters from different domains interact, no formal rules have been written out.

What happens if one media is much more consistent than others? How do you settle ties than?

Do those fancy terms are really that different from current terminologies known? Or are you just using them to hype the conversations?

Do you acknowledge the fact that there are alternatives to the current Set theory set up?

(I am not even going on calculation portion yet. I am pretty sure several people would raise objections to many of them).

Maybe if you had acknowledged some of the errors, you might not have gotten the much hate from those sites in the first place. Overall people will always be dissapointed and in my opinion we cannot create a perfect system to judge these imperfect creations

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

While I don't think it was the purpose of Sera's comment, I disagree with completely disregarding what other sites have to say about us. I especially take issue with placing "what other sites say about us" and "hate" in the same context as it ignores the existence of constructive criticism. Hate/flaming/trolling are separate from reasonable people who can calmly argue against parts of our system, and grouping them together locks us in a sort of arrogant dogmatism that I think is unhealthy for the site as a whole.

I can agree that keeping a neutral tone is important, however I do think redundancy is necessary. Our system is, as Sera put it, inherently different from that of more casual and even the most organized debate forums. Therefore having key information listed only once on a single page is counterintuitive to bringing in new members, and as someone who speaks extensively with outside users to gauge opinions, confuses the everloving heck out of them. So having an extra page with some common knowledge that is on a need-to-know basis is harmless at worst and helpful at best.

 

[Jimboydejuan12]

well guess Im speculation about Thread?

 

[Sera_EX]

@Dargoo

We never said we're above criticism. Ever. Constructive criticism is always welcome and often appreciated. But why would we make a page defending ourselves from constructive criticism? That's counterintuitive and basically makes no sense.

Ask anyone who's on th FC/OC Discord, I criticize VSBW more than any other staff member. Matt has criticized it, Ultima has criticized it, Kepe has criticized it. The difference between us and them is that we're actually being constructive about it and trying to change things, rather than just complain about it. Again, referring to those that hate us or blindly criticize us.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Sera makes a lot of sense. A FAQ page would probably be better.

She can also reword the sentence in the Marvel Comics verse page if she wishes. This is the first time that it was mentioned to me that it could be seen as offensive. I have a tendency to be blunt and not understand how regular people interpret things due to the autism.

Also, OnePunchSaitama, please stop derailing.

 

[Sera_EX]

@OnePunchSaitama

Pfft. You must don't know how many times I've critiqued this place, and I'm very vocal about things I don't like. My closest friends on the wiki, like Dragon, will tell you that much. We have acknowledged our issues in the past, and we constantly call each other out on our bullshit, that's why 2019 VSBW is vastly different than 2016-2017 VSBW which is vastly different than 2014 VSBW. There's literally not much we can do regarding other communities. We will get hate regardless.

 

[Andytrenom]

I am actually happy when things people rightfully call us out on gets corrected. Like the storm revision Bambu made.

 

[Antvasima]

We generally try to gradually improve, yes, as long as drastic changes are not suddenly rushed or forced upon us.

 

[The_Reclusive_One]

And you shouldn't be blamed for that either tbh. People always crave change and change is mostly good but we can't just dismantle the entire government and replace it with a new one overnight now can we? (Government is an a analogy for tier system btw).

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

Aside from everything, I think the most important aspect of this community is that if something doesn't make sense or you don't think it looks right - voice your reasoning. We've had lots of verses sit high and mighty in terms of tier only to have one user look at a few calculations and debunk them with logic.

In essence, we should say something about wanting outside people to join and give their input rather than click off the page and go make a rant on comicvine or YouTube.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, Ultima and DontTalkDT are currently talking about how we should best handle the modifications in private.

 

[Sera_EX]

Yes, obviously the current system will not last forever and is in need of a little soft reboot, but this process could take several months if not longer to fully implement. We just can't rush things especially when we're only getting more and more pages. We just reached 19k and it wasn't that long ago when we had 15k. Thank you for understanding Reclusive.

 

[Antvasima]

We are also trying to evaluate our lower tier borders in Andytrenom's thread., but these types of changes take massive amounts of work to implement.

Also, I have mostly tried to find the most rational, neutral, helpful, and reasonable members as suggestions to be promoted to the staff, not just "yes people".

 

[Antvasima]

@Sera

Will you modify the Marvel Comics verse page sentence?

Also, in the future, you can just approach me directly about these things. There is no need to talk about it with others for a long time instead.

 

[Sera_EX]

I didn't even know you wrote that. But sure thing. I just remember when I last mentioned it, Kep said "well it's technically true" so I just left it alone.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem. I wrote it in order to explain why our Marvel pages have so incoherent statistics. I have been trying to get them revised for years, but mostly to no avail.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I'd be fine with a "Frequently Answered Questions" sort of page regarding how CRTs work and similar stuff.

I don't think that there would be any point in addressing rumors like "VSBW is biased against/towards [insert franchise]". They are annoying, but we can't change someone's opinion about it unless they are willing to change their point of view to begin with, aka reading the CRTs that lead to those stats.

If they aren't willing to change their mind they'd read any attempt to defend ourselves as "look they feel the need to defend themselves because they are clearly doing it"

While I agree with you, I also think that maybe trying to get rid of the reasons why people create those preconceptions. Just something like "there are too many people to have any one bias or agenda". It doesn't have to be here, but just because we get hate regardless doesn't mean we shouldn't try and have better relations.

 

[Sera_EX]

Unfortunately no one really cares about Marvel. Our most popular verse has to be Dragon Ball, statistically speaking. I don't know where that one guy on Comicvine got the impression that our favorite verses are visual novels. Not even half of us even read/play those and some of us (like Cal) even started off hating VNs for being OP.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I agree with Sera, explaining some inner workings of the site in a formal manner is fine. But I'd rather we don't make a page that basically goes "No I am a nice person, Butch is just lying about me!".

I didn't really intend this to be that sort of misconception addressing, which is why I used this particular example. Like I said, we can address the reasons behind this issues without trying to debunk or "stop" criticism.

 

[Antvasima]

That is not true. The Marvel verse page is one of our most visited, and the Marvel wiki is easily the most popular comicbook wiki:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Verses

https://community.fandom.com/wiki/WAM

 

[Sera_EX]

Depends on how we go about it. We have plenty explanation pages already, people need only search for them or ask a staff to link them these pages. We even have a category for important pages.

Some of the nicest users were those who made Q and A threads voicing all their questions and concerns about the wiki or our practices. We have these forums for a reason. Best use them while they still exist.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

It seems a lot of people are taking this as a "debunk rumors thread." While I can see where confusion stems from, that's not really what it was intended or should be.

This isn't addressing us being, say, "biased towards x verse", but is addressing why some people think that independently in order to help prevent new users from misunderstanding and gaining their own preconceived notions. We can address how calculations are requested and handled without saying "our calculations aren't biased, shut up."

 

[Antvasima]

Yobo seems to make a good point.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Honestly, I think we've become a little too comfortable making pages and rules really to address internal wiki matters without thinking about external issues like new users. Even if we've revised rules, we haven't really done so with that intention in mind.

 

[Sera_EX]

I understand wheat you mean, but what I'm saying is this:

Using your example of calcs, we have a page for calculations literally called Calculations. Why would we need to address how we accept calcs when we have pages already addressing that?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Honestly, many new users already only somewhat skim those pages. It's definitely a good idea to make a more concise point. Also, that really only addresses calculations themselves rather then how we request them. Some people think they're only done by fans of the series they're calculating.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Part of the problem is that many new users don't want to read literal essays as soon as they join.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

And while we're at it, it's probably a good idea to link to those pages in whatever page or blog we make.

 

[Sera_EX]

Unfortunately, that's their problem then. I'm not expecting anyone to read aevery page at once but the total amount of these pages doesn't even amount to the size of a novella. It's like if you didn't read your car manual because "it's too long". Just read the bits you need to for the time being. Most people like to join and just jump straight into a vs thread because that's the main attraction, but they should read the Versus Thread rules first. It's just a matter of small time responsibility.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I do agree with it being the users responsibility. However, I do think we shouldn't ignore how hard we make it on new users sometimes, and a quick, concise way of addressing this causes no harm and helps everyone.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

To be frank, Yobo's idea is really the only one worth getting behind. Writing a ten mile long FAQ will only send people off, having read no more of it than they'd read of other essential pages. Saying that's their problem essentially negates the purpose.

Make a short page explaining the site to newcomers. If they read other essential pages, great, that's awesome. If not, they'll either learn over time (I sure as hell didn't read every page when I joined or even within a year of doing so) or leave. Either way, at that point it actually is their problem. It is our job to present the information as an easily accessible resource.

 

[Antvasima]

Mr. Bambu makes a good point about that a summary introduction page might be helpful to visitors. We could link to the related more in-depth pages from there.

 

[Sera_EX]

I agree Bambu, the thing is we kinda already do that, making the information easily accessible I mean. Currently the only people that should have issues with our site having so many important pages are those whose English reading skills aren't the best, because I must admit that some of our pages use some very sophisticated vocabulary for an entertainment wiki lol. However, we have the VSBW Localization project for that.

Anyway, I also think that a short page summarizing some of our various important pages is better than a big ol FAQs page, but we have a lot already. We even have that VSBW Glossary I haven't seen anyone reference.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I don't think we should worry about redundancy here. This wouldn't cause any harm, and if it helps even one user that's a big help, considering how much work Ant and other staff do.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I think if a FAQ page is well made it could be pretty concise, but I wouldn't be against a summary page either.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Also, I didn't even know we had a VSBW Glossary, and I've been here for a year and a half. If no one mentioned it I don't think it's doing it's job ovo.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Specifically an introduction/FAQ addressing some rumors/misconceptions about the site. Not verse-specific stuff, regardless of verse. I'm speaking of more broad things people have likely heard if they're immersed in the versus debating communities of the internet- stuff like Dargoo brought up. A good FAQ ought to mention that stats are negotiable at best and fluid at worst with every verse getting CRTs relatively regularly if a person is willing to put in the work. It ought to mention how our calculations are handled. Hell it even ought to mention that staff only threads turn into "speak seriously" threads more often than not.

A good way to enter the site is to know we're not a horrible bunch of hunched over schemers discussing how to make our verses stronger than anyone is willing to believe. Those are the misconceptions that need addressing immediately if someone is willing to listen.

 

[Zaratthustra]

Idk if I should talk here but I think the best way is to explain in FAQ how this wiki tier the Characters/Verse because that's what confuse people and make a lot of negative comments on others vs-wikis. A short description of how vsbattle applies the tier.

 

[Sera_EX]

But I can't stand redundancy

I mean, to be honest, we have a category page that serves as a literal index (it's alphabetized and everything). I'm okay with it if we do decide to make either a summary or FAQs page but it's definitely under the category of us "babying" members. Keyword, members. Our casual visitors care about only two things.

1. Our character and verse pages

2. Our Tier System (including AP, Durability, Speed, Lifting Strength, etc.) because that's what the above pages are based on.

The rest is more a community thing than a visitor thing.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Idk if I should talk here but I think the best way is to explain in FAQ how this wiki tier the Characters/Verse because that's what confuse people and make a lot of negative comments on others vs-wikis. A short description of how vsbattle applies the tier.

This too, of course. A brief description of that or a link to a second page denoting how our stats actually function would be a welcomed addition.