8-B Brackets Round 11

[Dargoo_Faust]

I'm not saying Ouma isn't fair.

I'm saying his profile isn't reflective of what Firephoenix is arguing, which makes debating him in a bracket with no knowledge on To Aru unnecessarily confusing.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

he actually weights around half a ton due to his skin and none density xD

Oh Golly, he can only ever be a bottom! I am aware he's not really a haxy guy, or anything like that, but like, how many people will be able to really punch through his barrier in this bracket since piercing stuff and etc didn't really seem to work, and it had more to do with having enough force?

And after the enemy is worn down some and he had the freedom to see what they are up to, he gets a boost to speed that means he'll likely be blitzing almost anyone on these speed equal matches. I am just a bit unsure.

 

[First_Witch]

To Aru though lol.

 

[GyroNutz]

Why does Ouma not have the + on her profile if he's superior to 96.76 tons

Or better yet, why isn't he straight up 8-A for likely being 1.034x stronger than someone who is 96.76 tons

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

This is what I'm saying.

The profile isn't accurate to what Phoenix is saying.

It should probably be fixed before he's used in matches.

 

[Malox1696]

If character A can't deal damage to B it's a stomp, if by some miracle (meteor falls) A penetrates B defense and then get blitzed by B then it's double stomp

a match to not be a stomp needs give the possibility of win to both, then the odds can tilt but if they are absolute it's an obvious stomp

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Ouma is superior to 96.76 tons from being a 10th ofthis feat. So even through AP that makes it almost a stomp.

"Superior to 96.76 Tons" would just make him baseline 8-A, no?

 

[Litentric_Teon]

I'm pretty sure that's generally not how we do things. This has been brought up before. "If character A is superior to character to B, and character B is only a bit away from another tier, then is character A that tier?"

Generally, that receives a resounding no except is specific instances. Ikki did manage to pierce through the barrier based upon what's been said, though it took effort on Ikki's part. So the barrier at least, while high into 8-B, isn't 8-A.

In situations where one character defeats another whom is borderline another tier, they're typically given "at least insert beaten character's tier here" and that's the end of it. I don't see why Ouma would be different.

At best him amping himself past 8-B shouldn't be allowed as I'm guessing he can do that. But everything else that's 8-B seems fair game.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

"If character A is superior to character to B, and character B is only a bit away from another tier, then is character A that tier?"
Generally, that receives a resounding no except is specific instances.

Discounting the rest of your comment, the consensus is actually this from this thread:

It is possible for a character who is depicted as vastly superior to another in a statistic to be placed in a tier above the other, given that the other character is close to the the next tier. However, this ultimately needs to be decided through case-by-case analysis.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Also for some reason no one has still adressed Ouma's profile reflecting practically nothing claimed on this thread.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

@Dargoo

Oh wow, I didn't even realize that had changed. Thank you.

I guess I get the confusion now. Since they would need to decide if Ouma is 8-A. I'm guessing that at least 8-B is a safe bet since Ikki seems to have broken through his shields and would explain at least part of the reasoning on his profile, but I'm no expert on the verse, as I've only seen the anime.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I mean

his profile still says 8-B to 8-A physically, and Low 7-C with magic

so

 

[GyroNutz]

Since they would need to decide if Ouma is 8-A. I'm guessing that at least 8-B is a safe bet since Ikki seems to have broken through his shields and would explain at least part of the reasoning on his profile

From Fire's description, he hardly broke through the shields at all with his strongest attacks

 

[Litentric_Teon]

@Dargoo

That thread was super helpful to read. Thank you. Now I know where to find the information.

@Gyro

Once again, I'm no expert. However, if an 8-B can break through his shields, regardless of the effort, those shields are 8-B. Ikki's strongest attacks at that point are 8-B. An 8-A shield wouldn't have broken against an 8-B attack assuming normal circumstances.

His profile is indeed strange. Saying that he's 8-B to 8-A physically and yet his magic was pierced with an 8-B attack. Doesn't add up, I agree. But by that alone I think his magic is legitimately at least 8-B, and then higher as he draws on more of his power. However, only phoenix can truly confirm this. Or another supporter of the verse.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I'd rather Phoenix or another supporter, you know, fix the profile first.

 

[DontTalkDT]

From Fire's description, he hardly broke through the shields at all with his strongest attacks

I mean, maybe Ikki's strongest piercing attack is 3.4% stronger than his normal ones.

Not that I would know, given that I neither know the series nor am technically not in favor of upscaling characters like this.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

That's more than fair. One of the rules does say that characters under revision shouldn't be used. Assuming phoenix had knowledge of said revisions, Ouma likely shouldn't have been nominated.

 

[GyroNutz]

The gap between the top end of 8-B and 8-A is not significant whatsoever. 8-B piercing attacks that are less than 1.1x away from baseline 8-A can do more than 'slightly damage' a baseline 8-A shield. So that doesn't really prove the shields are 8-B; if anything, it supports that they're 8-A and that Ouma should be rated higher.

 

[GyroNutz]

I mean, maybe Ikki's strongest piercing attack is 3.4% stronger than his normal ones.

Not that I would know, given that I neither know the series nor am technically not in favor of upscaling characters like this.

That'd technically make it 8-A, but the fact that the shield apparently wasn't damaged all that much also doesn't help.

I don't know the series either; I'm going off of what Earl said

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ok ok I have to go to school now, but when I get back I will put everything in its place. I don't have time right now.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Ok ok I have to go to school now, but when I get back I will put everything in its place. I don't have time right now.

No worries.

When the profile is fixed plz post here and we can continue with arguments proper.

If you think you need extra time I can post the next round while you are busy.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

The profile was just a lil messed up as it showed negating a 8-A ability with a certain skill as a justification for Low 7-C. But ok now it should be fixed. I'll get down to replying and correcting what everyone said above in a sec.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

cool.

I'll actually start counting votes then

Ouma - 2 (Fire, Litentric)

Itsuwa - 3 (Mr. Bambu, Psychomaster35, Iapitus)

 

[DontTalkDT]

So, Fujin Kekkai is restricted, since it links to blocking a MCB+ feat, yes?

I will actually write something on the fight when I get home then.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Votes? Does it count that the votes on Itsuwa stopped being legit win conditions after the 96 tons + forcefield came in? Anyway

Rather than answering everyone 1 by 1, i'll just adress everything 1 by 1 (i'll answer the topics rather than the people).

• Ikki vs Ouma's Air Shield. Yes Ikki did use his strongest technique to get through Ouma's shield and stop at his skin (his skin was another problem, i could go into explaining that but it'd be useless right now). And yes an 8-B Ikki pierced through his skin with his strongest move, i mean people we rate people's AP and tier here using THEIR STRONGEST ATTACK (unless the strongest has it's own tier). Ikki blade attacks are all the same unless it's seeking shadow or Saigeki. The former is could 1 shot an 8-A Stella, the latter is just a normal attack with the sword execept for the fact that it attacks in a piercing kind of sense, the energy is still the same, it's just piercing instead of slashing.

The close range Saigeki pierced Ouma's wind armor, Tennryuugusoku, and Ikki's sword dug in right above his collarbone.

That was by no means a random target.

Ikki had seen through Ouma's muscle shape and density based on his movements, and attacked so as to slip through a gap.

However, the plan hadn't gone that well. Intetsu had not cut muscle. It had seemed to pierce Ouma, but before it turned into a serious wound, Ouma had flexed his muscles. His swelling muscles caught the blade as if it had been tucked in there.

• The shield wasn't damaged. Just read above, and let me say this again. The shield cannot be damaged, it can be bypassed, but not damaged. Damaging that shield is like punching air and hoping that for the rest of eternity the spot where you punched will remain vaccum. Air will reform itself, that's why with enough AP you can bypass the shield, but not break it.</p>

 

[Firephoenixearl]

So, Fujin Kekkai is restricted, since it links to blocking a MCB+ feat, yes?
I will actually write something on the fight when I get home then.

Fujin Kekkai is a defensive technique though, not an offensive one. He stabs his sword into the ground and creates a tornado around himself to protect him from harm. The only reason it has an AP/Tier is cus it negged Stella's attack, but i guess ok we could restrict it either way, i don't mind restricting it to make the fight somewhat more berable. (But just for clarification, similarly to Kusanagi, Fujin Kekkai is not forcefully 8-A, it is dependant on how much magic he puts on the ability so it can be a 8-B defense just fine, i don't wanna complicate it too much though so im fine with restricting it, i can't find any scenario where this 8-B defense would come in handy).

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Why does Ouma not have the + on her profile if he's superior to 96.76 tons
Or better yet, why isn't he straight up 8-A for likely being 1.034x stronger than someone who is 96.76 tons

Cus he has the "At least, likely". The + would be meaningless.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Anyway i don't see how Itsuwa can do anything against Ouma's defense, offense and versatility which far outclass hers. @Dargoo since this is brackets wouldn't it make sense to count stomp votes? I mean Starscream won vs Spiderman via stomp votes basically. That would make 5 votes for Ouma i think. (Me, lite, sir lancelot, pixel and malox)

 

[DontTalkDT]

Cus he has the "At least, likely". The + would be meaningless.

"At least" means that the given value is a lower end while the real value could be higher. It doesn't mean that the character is in the upper end of the tier (E.g. an At least character could be lower end of the tier or two tiers higher, we just don't know)

+ on the other hand signifies that the character was quantified to be in the upper half of tier. It doesn't mean that the character might be higher than that upper end, though.

So it isn't meaningless and since he is at 97 tons he needs the +.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I see. I'll remember to add that then.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Let's get into some arguments for Itsuwa.

First: I wonder why it is assumed that Ouma is a lot more skilled than Itsuwa. Itsuwa is one of the head combatants of the Amakusa, meaning she has trained for a long time to become an elite magician and fighter. Their goal was to be able to fight alongside Kanzaki Kaori, which means they had a rather high goal. And they managed it. In the fight against Acqua the Amakusa as a group were able to fight at the side of Kanzaki without being just baggage or something. In other words they are so skilled that they aren't easily annihilated against a monster like Acqua of The Back (first key), despite being so much weaker.
In addition to that spear users have a inherent advantage in battle against sword users, due to weapon compatibility. Under equal conditions (skill, stats etc.) spears usually beat swords. (Cool video on that)

That aside Itsuwa has another advantage: She can freely disengage to prep or surprise. Reason for that is that like any other magician in the verse Itsuwa can create People-Clearing Fields. That is she can choose an area and make it so that the subconsciouses of all people around are manipulated so that they will not enter that area. With that she can at basically any point retreat, heal up and prep. And she can make use of that prep to for example cast her Scattered Gras spell, which vastly improves her defensive abilities. This also gets her out of his oxygen manip, by just leaving its AoE.

With that said I want to direct attention to the reasoning of the "much higher" durability stat with Damage Transfer Charm and Scattered Gras: She could block Acqua of The Back's physical strikes. We are talking about 1st key Acqua here at that. If she gets off her prep she can tank what Ouma throws at her for a very long time until her magical clothes are destroyed.
Without the prep the Damage Transfer Charm bit is still in place and should still give her considerable tanking ability.

And her procedurally getting nude will distract Ouma.

Next let's get to his air defense shield. I'm not sure if it block Itsuwa's White Explosion magic. First, this magic creates two explosions. One at the tip of Itsuwa's spear and the other right at the enemy Itsuwa is facing. I don't know how tight his barrier is, but if it isn't directly on his skin the second explosion might happen within the barrier, making it useless.
The second way the explosion may bypass the shield is due to its inherent properties. It is a spell based on the sun, that produces heat and light. Air conducts heat and doesn't affect light at all, meaning it can go past the barrier more or less unimpeded.


So, regarding Ouma's stat amp: Considering that that 100% goes into 8-A I assume this is restricted. Though I think it needs more to completly blitz Itsuwa either way.

Vacuum blades can be countered with stell wires. It doesn't really circumvent the damage transfer charm either way.


Let's talk about the Mandala as well. Illusions are not just good at hiding, but also in fooling opponents about what is there. If it looks to him like Itsuwa is defending and tanking vacuum blades, there is no reason to start using AoE stuff or searching for her true form. Worst case she could even make an illusion that Ryuuzume is broken, knocking him out. Though that's of course just one of many ways it could go.

When not using illusions, she could insert a thought into his head to make him think that one of his techniques was analyzed and that he hence won't use it. That way she can get rid of whatever proofs most troublesome, like the air barrier, invisibility or oxygen thing.


Summa summarum Itsuwa could to some extent hold herself against heavier hitters than Ouma and has a toolbox that can let her win this.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ok so:

1. Yes she did do that, while Ouma took on the 2nd strongest guy in the whole series as a freaking child. And we'r talking about guys that have death manip, fate manip and passive fear, will, perception manip and paralysis. Yet Ouma had to fight that guy. Furthermore Ikki Kurogane who copied Edelweiss's sword technique stateed that Ouma's sword technique is much closer to Edelweiss' than his own. And remember we'r talking about the nr 1 blazer in the series whose attacks are invisible, require no time to accelerate and are completely silent, yet Ouma could to some extent replicate. There are also other feats i could mention but i believe i've mentioned the point by now, Ouma was THE highest ranking student in Japan, easily fodderizing Stella who was supposed to be his equal before her abnormal growth kicked in. His skill is nothing to sleep on.

2. Going in and out is seriously useless as she is going to lose before she gets a chance to do so. Not only will Ouma be starting with vacuum blades which are invisible (so she has no way to defend against them or predict them), but anything he does with the wind will literally 1 shot and a lot of wind attacks can be omnidirectional. The oxygen manip also creates a momentary distraction and you don't instantly notice the lack of Oxygen, you only notice once breathing becomes harder (since it's not instant).

3. Clothing is useless. Ouma's abilities rely on wind and his wind is so strong it was tearing appart the windows of the building. Vaccum blades in general in Rakudai can easily tear through clothes. Not only that but Ouma's "tenryu release" (releasing his armor), lasts for quite a while, so the winds will be continuously tear off her clothes. Furthermore can't ouma just speed amp and just strip her naked?

4. I think you have a wrong conception of the forcefield. The forcefield wasn't supposed to "shield" Ouma, it was supposed to restrict his speed (and strength but his speed is far more significant). Ouma's durability is at least equal to the Tenryuu Armor. I mean you think the guy was dumb to have removed his armor against Stella? I even said up above "removing the tenryu armor means he got serious about beating people". Even with his shield off he can more than tank anything Itsuwa throws at him. (Some clarification yes the barrier is directly on his skin, otherwise it wouldn't be restricting his movements, it'd would just protect him which as i said isn't what it was supposed to be doing at all, it just ends up doing that)

5. Stat amp would just put him at 100 tons then i guess. Speed amp WILL completely blitz her, as i said it did completely blitz stella who was at least equal, but likely superior to him.

6. Steel wires...really? These guys are at city block level and you think steel wires are gonna stop his vacuum blades? (Which as i said are invisible so she's not even gonna know what hit her).

7. Making an illusion that Ryuuzume is broken wouldn't knock him out, you need to destroy Ryuuzume to knock him out, not make him believe it was destroyed. The knock out is a mental feedback of the sword breaking since the sword is made of their soul/magic, if that's destroyed it will most likely knock out (not always, it's not always guaranteed that it will knock out, if Ikki could withstand the feedback, then Ouma sure as hell can, his tolerance to pain and mental durability has shown time and time again to be superior to Ikki, so that's why it's should and not will since it's just what it is said on paper but weaker people than him have resisted).

8. His technique being analyzed won't stop him from using them. I mean Ikki has Blade Steal yet Ouma used the "same exact strike" in "the same exact position". He's too confident in his own abilities. Same for Kusanagi he used it 3 times in a single fight. xD

Summary: I still don't believe there is "anything" Itsuwa can do about his AP and Durability. There is literally no concievable way for her to get past his actual durability (even if we don't count in the forcefield). Not to mention his blitzing capabilities and the fact that he can just tear the clothes. Where as Itsuwa has no way to deal a finishing blow.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

This is long but at least this will likely be the only "long" fight Ouma will have. It'll be easier to argue on the others since i won't have to explain things in this much detail...hopefully.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

@Phoenix

To be fair, I don't think you addressed her literally placing thoughts in his head, that seems pretty potent. As does her potentially gaining prep time, if she does indeed do that mid-fight (though SBA makes it so there are no people around).

@Donttalk

Her showing him an illusion of his blade being broken implies she has knowledge of how his abilities work. Which she doesn't have.

My vote stays on Ouma regardless due to invisibility, AP advantage, very likely superior skill (the skill feats in Rakudai are rather insane), and speed blitz. Restricting his AP doesn't restrict his speed, so amplifying it should work just fine. Itsuwa having better durability only helps her get beat down for a slightly longer period of time since Ouma has a 3-4x AP advantage over her. While I think Itsuwa has the tools to pull out a victory, I think Ouma rushing down with his superior CQC and AP advantage paired with omnidirectional attacks will likely wear her down all too quickly.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Showing him illusions will only give her some prep time/stall the match a bit. But that's it, she still cannot deal a finishing blow. Besides sooner or later Ouma will just be pissed and go ham on her with his omnidirectional wind attacks. Which will kill her no matter the illusions. So yes while the illusions will work to some extent (though Ouma does have a PRETTY strong mind and has dealt with illusions before, against Stella) they aren't enough to guarantee a win here.

 

[DontTalkDT]

1. Defeating people weaker then you is far less impressive than keeping up with someone much stronger than you.

2. A 3.5x gap is not enough to oneshot even without the damage transfer charm. And as said, with damage transfer charm Itsuwa is a monster of a tank, even if not a wall. One shot? He will a lot more attacks to wear her down, if Acqua can't onshot her. We are talking about tanking attacks more powerful than Ouma's to a ridiculous extent.

3. First, you seem to have the mistaken assumption that those are normal clothes with normal durability. The clothes of any magician in index with more than human level durability are magical. Second, Damage Transfer Charm transfers damage to small patch of clothing.

4. A 3.5x advantage isn't enough to shrug off attacks with his base dura. It takes a few hits, but that's it. Unless of course you want to claim his own durability is actually higher than that of his 97 ton armor.

Btw. is that armor on passively?

5. If I understand what Dargoo said before correctly, techniques which are above 8-B are completly restricted. In other words he may not use his stat amp at all.

And as said, Itsuwa has fought opponents vastly faster than herself before.

6. City Block level steel wires... Do I really have to explain that that stuff is magical? For reference the wires do stuff similar to this.

7. K.

8. It doesn't matter if it would usually not do so. The "So I won't use it" is part of the thought inserted.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

1. Uhm...weaker? Edelweiss is so much stronger than him, it's not even funny. And Tyrant is literally keeping WWIII from breaking out (the 2 strongest organization of nations in the world are being kept at bae because of this guy's existence). These guys far outclass ouma yet there he is.

2. That is ONLY assuming normal circumstances and a punch to the torso region. Anything Ouma does that strikes somewhere around the throat WILL be deadly. A 1 hit for absolute sure with 3.5x AP advantage AND weapon like swords or wind attacks that have a certain amount of dura neg due to their cutting properties.

3. I believe i said Ouma FAR outclasses her strength. Why did you bring up human level when Ouma is funnily superior to Itsuwa? Yes magical clothes, you're telling me that a guy using wind magic with AP far beyond her paygrade or just physically tearing her clothes wouldn't work. And again with the AP, speed and versatility/CC (with wind magic which can just stop her movements or something), it would be fairly easy for him to get her "out" of those clothes. Besides from what i know the clothes in index only protect from hits in the clothes directly. If you attack bare skin it will go through. And even then, it's pretty in character for ouma to just grab her by the head/hair and slam her against the ground till she either gives up or dies.

4. Well he cought Ikki's Raigeki which pierced the armor by flexing. And everyone has stated that it's not his armor that makes him durable but rather his really strong body (thick skin and bones) that makes him so scary. I mean his body "has" been enduring that "forcefield" for years, remember that. I never said his body is weaker than the Tenryuu armor, it's at least as strong as it. However anything she throws at him will get negged by air resistances anyway (as i said before Stella did try her hand with explosions...didn't end well). And his thick skin makes durability negating effects (like piercing or slashing) less effective (as shown when Ikki's Saigeki didn't work out as well as he was hoping for).

Passively gives a wrong idea, more like standard equipment. He keeps it full time (literally the only time he took it off was vs stella to get serious after years of keeping it on).

5. His stat amp is literally just him unrestricting himself though. When you take off what is possibly hundreds of kilograms of air resistance off every single part of your body, it's a lot easier to move and your attacks will be stronger don't ya think? So not to assume he goes beyond 8-B, we'll just keep him at 100 tons. Same for his speed, it's not an ability you can restrict.

About Itsuwa fighting characters faster than herself...yeah so has stella when she fought Touka who can slash at lighting speeds, still got destroyed by Ouma.

6. Yeah....Ouma shatters them by blinking via AP alone. And again the vaccum slashes are invisible there is no way she is reacting to them in any way.

8. Depends on how strong it is. As i said Ouma has a pretty strong mental resistance in general (due to fighting people like Tyrant who has passives same as Edelweiss who was making Kurono and Nene stop seeing clearly and paralyzed them in fear when they were cities appart). Not to mention that if her mindhax were that good she wouldn't be allowed, Mind Hax is a durability ignoring effect, if it's too powerful it's meaningless for a "non haxed 8-B brackets" as she will just mind fodderize anyone independent of their AP or Durability.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

uh

hm

bump. This round seems to be rather inactive.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Ouma has a pretty strong mental resistance in general

iTs nOT on tHE prOfILE

 

[Drite77]

Is this even gona end?