To Aru Majutsu no Index revision Part 1

[XDragnoir]

Also, if I got everything right her railgun and lightning will be upgraded to H7A in the Pre-L6S key, right? Everything else will stay as it is.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Also, if I got everything right her railgun and lightning will be upgraded to H7A in the Pre-L6S key, right? Everything else will stay as it is.

Yep, you got it right.

 

[Doggo]

Thank you all. Am a bit busy atm. Adopted a new dog and am helping it adjust to my place, basically. Will apply the edits when I can, though.

Congrats for the doggy

 

[RandomGuy2345]

You deadass just took a 7A Johnny Test match away from me, Fanta.

After reading the OP, I agree with everything, though I doubt my opinion matters at all here.

 

[XDragnoir]

Bump? How many more staff we need?

.

.

.

Y'all really don't have any concerns or questions regarding the scaling or anything in the OP?

I'd rather answer everything before DT makes a massive post in the next few days so that things don't get slowed down even more.

 

[Lonkitt]

I’m fine with everything. Also there’s enough approval

 

[RandomGuy2345]

You deadass just took a 7A Johnny Test match away from me, Fanta.

After reading the OP, I agree with everything, though I doubt my opinion matters at all here.

Will like to say that I appreciate Fanta for taking away a 7-A JT MU from me.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Just gonna note that I commented on a bunch of calcs. Tell me when the replies come around.

 

[XDragnoir]

Just gonna note that I commented on a bunch of calcs. Tell me when the replies come around.

From what I read so far, you recalc'ed the Sweep calc and got a H6C end, so I either you will have to blog it or something so that it can be evaluated.

But you said something in the Mjolnir calc that I think is worth talking about here:

I don't think a per second value makes sense here. The attack didn't "charge" as much as Mjölnir just had to fly the circle to start the spell. Y'know the way it works in ToAru. Ritual magic.

The attack literally charged as Mjolnir was building up magic power to release the spell, even accelerating as it did so.

And I have no idea how it being "ritual magic" means anything here? We aren't scaling anyone directly to Throwing Hammer.

Basically, Mjölnir can't do 10% of the spell by flying 10% of the circle.

Good thing no one said it can then.

As I said above, we aren't scaling anyone to the full spell, we are scaling people (in this case Kanzaki) to Mjolnir's normal Magic Power output.

Pretty simple, Throwing Hammer builds up Magic Power for 10s by spinning in a circle, 1s is 10% of that value and is, therefore, what Mjolnir can realistically output without charging up, with the value being consistent with other saint tier feats too, btw.

 

[XDragnoir]

Honestly, you should have commented here instead of the calcs themselves, that would make things much easier for everyone.

Anyway, PE calc for Star of Bethlehem you said "I don't think the "short unspecified timeframe" is actually so short that you can use the full PE for AP"

But well, I was told PE doesn't really take timeframes into account and is the calc you use when someone (in this case Index) is keeping something in the air.

 

[XDragnoir]

Honestly, you should have commented here instead of the calcs themselves, that would make things much easier for everyone.

Anyway, PE calc for Star of Bethlehem you said "I don't think the "short unspecified timeframe" is actually so short that you can use the full PE for AP"

But well, I was told PE doesn't really take timeframes into account and is the calc you use when someone (in this case Index) is keeping something in the air.

Also, Here is the pastebin withe the quote about the timeframe the SoB took to reach above the clouds, in case anyone who knows about calcs could say if it's fast enough to use PE:

"After rising about 10 meters, the last bit of resistance disappeared. The speed suddenly rose and Kamijou was surrounded in fog. An odd pressure seemed to press his body to the ground, but he didn’t have time to be confused. His eyes widened in surprise and suddenly the fog disappeared.

He could see the blue sky.

The scenery wrapped in white snow clouds was nowhere to be seen.

The freezing air hurt his throat and his lungs could not take in air very well.

Kamijou knew what all that meant.

(We’re…above the clouds!?)"

 

[DontTalkDT]

Honestly, you should have commented here instead of the calcs themselves, that would make things much easier for everyone.

I prefer to debate calc issues in the blogs, since it's then clear in the blog whether it's accepted or not, and the reason for it. I had cases where people tried to add a rejected calc, because they looked at a blog and it seemed accepted. Scaling issues and mechanics stuff can be debated here, of course.

From what I read so far, you recalc'ed the Sweep calc and got a H6C end, so I either you will have to blog it or something so that it can be evaluated.

Since the value is below Gabriel's AP, I'm fairly sure there would be no point to getting it approved? I mean, I can if anyone has use for it, but the main point was that the current calc doesn't use the right method.

But you said something in the Mjolnir calc that I think is worth talking about here:


The attack literally charged as Mjolnir was building up magic power to release the spell, even accelerating as it did so.

And I have no idea how it being "ritual magic" means anything here? We aren't scaling anyone directly to Throwing Hammer.


Good thing no one said it can then.

As I said above, we aren't scaling anyone to the full spell, we are scaling people (in this case Kanzaki) to Mjolnir's normal Magic Power output.

Pretty simple, Throwing Hammer builds up Magic Power for 10s by spinning in a circle, 1s is 10% of that value and is, therefore, what Mjolnir can realistically output without charging up, with the value being consistent with other saint tier feats too, btw.

That's not how magic in ToAru works. Magicians draw in external power through certain actions, they are not mana batteries. In this case, Mjölnir performs a spell where the action that creates the spell is her flying in a circle.

I'm not sure why you think Mjölnir can call in the same energy per second without performing the same ritual. And as said, if she performs the ritual she can't stop after flying 1/10th of the circle and attack with what she has. Or at least I don't see why she could.

 

[XDragnoir]

That's not how magic in ToAru works. Magicians draw in external power through certain actions, they are not mana batteries. In this case, Mjölnir performs a spell where the action that creates the spell is her flying in a circle.

First, there are several types of magic in Index and not all of them take energy from outside sources, that's a common type of magic but saint tier characters (such as Mjolnir) do spells using only their own Magic Power all the time (Kanzaki, Acqua, KL, etc), so please quote where exactly Mjolnir got her Magic Power other than herself in that moment, she isn't like Styil using his rune cards or Fiamma or Vento using Telesma.

I'm not sure why you think Mjölnir can call in the same energy per second without performing the same ritual. And as said, if she performs the ritual she can't stop after flying 1/10th of the circle and attack with what she has. Or at least I don't see why she could.

What? That's a strawman or you're just not understanding what's being argued.

Again, 1s is the MP that Mjolnir can output normally because the spell is (as I said above) being powered by her own MP, it's not flying for 1s, it's the normal Magic Power output that her spells would scale to.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Also, Here is the pastebin withe the quote about the timeframe the SoB took to reach above the clouds, in case anyone who knows about calcs could say if it's fast enough to use PE:

"After rising about 10 meters, the last bit of resistance disappeared. The speed suddenly rose and Kamijou was surrounded in fog. An odd pressure seemed to press his body to the ground, but he didn’t have time to be confused. His eyes widened in surprise and suddenly the fog disappeared.

He could see the blue sky.

The scenery wrapped in white snow clouds was nowhere to be seen.

The freezing air hurt his throat and his lungs could not take in air very well.

Kamijou knew what all that meant.

(We’re…above the clouds!?)"

The problem is bigger than that. One is that above the clouds is not the full 10 km height used in the calc. 10k meter is further up and that is only reached later after it gradually ascended.

"That included sending that fortress up 3000 meters into the sky above the clouds."

That, and the part Touma stands on isn't representative. Later on that page it's noted that the construct is still growing.

"Even then, the mysterious fortress was growing before Kamijou’s eyes"

Basically, by the time Kamijou arrived above the clouds other parts were still flying up, so the timeframe until all pieces are assembled is longer than just his ascend time.

 

[DontTalkDT]

First, there are several types of magic in Index and not all of them take energy from outside sources, that's a common type of magic but saint tier characters (such as Mjolnir) do spells using only their own Magic Power all the time (Kanzaki, Acqua, KL, etc), so please quote where exactly Mjolnir got her Magic Power other than herself in that moment, she isn't like Styil using his rune cards or Fiamma or Vento using Telesma.

What? That's a strawman or you're just not understanding what's being argued.

Again, 1s is the MP that Mjolnir can output normally because the spell is (as I said above) being powered by her own MP, it's not flying for 1s, it's the normal Magic Power output that her spells would scale to.

Mjölnir is shaped like a drum for the sake of the idol principle, as that way she can represent Mjölnir and hence draw in power from the original.

She then spins in a circle like a throwing hammer to cast a lightning spell.

In a series where virtually every spell is idol principle based, the author of course at some point doesn't note that the character does the specific action for ritual purposes anymore.

The point is, Mjölnir isn't spinning for fun. She is doing it as part of the spell. She couldn't release that powerful of a lightning by just standing still and focusing for 10 seconds.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

huh. stuff's happening here. Am feeling pretty down rn due to an old doggo of mine dying, so can't muster anything atm.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Mjölnir is shaped like a drum for the sake of the idol principle, as that way she can represent Mjölnir and hence draw in power from the original.

She then spins in a circle like a throwing hammer to cast a lightning spell.

In a series where virtually every spell is idol principle based, the author of course at some point doesn't note that the character does the specific action for ritual purposes anymore.

The point is, Mjölnir isn't spinning for fun. She is doing it as part of the spell. She couldn't release that powerful of a lightning by just standing still and focusing for 10 seconds.

Welp, I'm going to stupidly try my hand at this... but does this even matter? Nevertheless, Mjolnir is literally just charging up an attack in a certain way to unleash a special attack like... like... Goku charging up his Ki to perform a kamehameha wave. The spell is literally Mjolnir fly in a circle to perform this special attack/spell. I'm dumb, and am feeling all of myself atm, so there is probably a major error in what I said, so what the hell.

... Meh, this doesn't matter though. Since the main 6-B calc is bunk, this CRT needs a new value.

 

[Doggo]

bump

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

bump

Been busy with writing smth for this CRT. Is almost done. Probs a day or two from now, it'll be ready, so wait a bit longer.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Welp, I'm going to stupidly try my hand at this... but does this even matter? Nevertheless, Mjolnir is literally just charging up an attack in a certain way to unleash a special attack like... like... Goku charging up his Ki to perform a kamehameha wave. The spell is literally Mjolnir fly in a circle to perform this special attack/spell. I'm dumb, and am feeling all of myself atm, so there is probably a major error in what I said, so what the hell.

My point is that the calc result is probably only applicable to that spell and not, for instance, Mjölnir's guns.

The difference is that Goku has a certain amount of Ki in his body and can use that Ki to shoot, for example, a ki bullet. It's using the same energy, just differently.

Meanwhile, Mjölnir for the Throwing Hammer spell uses her own magic power but also uses the symbolic throwing hammer action (flying in a circle, like when Thor is swinging his hammer around) to draw power from the original Mjölnir via the Idol Principle (or at least that's how most spells in ToAru work, so it's a reasonable guess).
Things like her guns no doubt also draw power from the Idol Principle, but spells don't necessarily do so all to the same degree. Gabriel and Astro in Hand is a great example of how that can be the case.
So with a spell that is so clearly much stronger than the other techniques (and with no way to scale between them), I think it's valid to question it.

 

[XDragnoir]

Even if we drop the Mjolnir part, it doesn't change anything:

Gabriel still has this 6B feat, obviously the H6A part is an outlier but the 6B explosion works well enough.

To sum things up, the feats of the verse are:

6B - Gabriel's phreatic explosion
6B - Hel freezing the ocean
L6B - Accel scaling to the Terraforming Bomb
6C/H6C - Gabriel's suicide explosion and the 2x multiplier over it.
6C - the current feat they scale, Gabriel vaporizing a mountain

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Even if we drop the Mjolnir part, it doesn't change anything:

Gabriel still has this 6B feat, obviously the H6A part is an outlier but the 6B explosion works well enough.

To sum things up, the feats of the verse are:

6B - Gabriel's phreatic explosion
6B - Hel freezing the ocean
L6B - Accel scaling to the Terraforming Bomb
6C/H6C - Gabriel's suicide explosion and the 2x multiplier over it.
6C - the current feat they scale, Gabriel vaporizing a mountain

And you typed this up before I was able to do so myself, lol. Wouldn't say the H6A is an outlier, persay, like the only other H6A feats we've are Fiamma's eurasia-wiping attack that wasn't too much effort for him even in an extremely weakend state, white-winged accelerator who tanked all of it, and Accel's earth rotation-infused wall that didn't take any real effort from him (and was established in the accel manga that he can use and convert all of the earth's rotational forces into whatever force he wants at any time, or smth),

 

[XDragnoir]

And you typed this up before I was able to do so myself, lol. Wouldn't say the H6A is an outlier, persay, like the only other H6A feats we've are Fiamma's eurasia-wiping attack that wasn't too much effort for him even in an extremely weakend state, white-winged accelerator who tanked all of it, and Accel's earth rotation-infused wall that didn't take any real effort from him (and was established in the accel manga that he can use and convert all of the earth's rotational forces into whatever force he wants at any time, or smth),

The H6A part isn't an outlier for the verse, sure, but it's way above the other feats Saint Tier characters scale to.

White Wings for example did survive the eurasia attack but not only is the Eurasia attack 6A iirc, it was tanked by WW Accel with a Halo, it definitely doesn't scale to other Saint Tiers as they didn't fight this Accel.

Also, the Earth Rotational energy part is true but we don't have any direct statements of Accel using it during any of his fights, so we can't just assume he'd be using it.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

First of all. ****. Power outage are bitch, nuff said. Second, let's me reply.

The H6A part isn't an outlier for the verse, sure, but it's way above the other feats Saint Tier characters scale to.

Most of the feats that saints (and saint-tiered people) actually scale to, barring accelerator feats (kinda), are Gabriel's. Like if we didn't have Gabriel, we likely either have Saints at 7-C at the lowest to baseline 7-A via mountain statements at the highest.

And we know Kanzaki fought her for some time, we have her directly state that Acqua/William were stronger than it, we have no proof that AF Gab and WWIII Gab have any difference in power (or even True Gab since the only time we saw it we got a statement which basically stated it was at the same level power of 50% WWIIII Gab and the whole pheratic explosion thing was just her gaining back that lost 50%), and Acqua/William absorbed half of its power and added it to his 200% power (which basically just triggered a worse verision of what happened with Saint Killer as it likely ****** up the balancing act he'd to put on to mantain his strength).

So I don't think the H6A part should be flat-out considered an outliner considering it is still apart of that pheratic explosion feat. At the very most, it could be possible to attach to ratings as a possibly rating.

White Wings for example did survive the eurasia attack but not only is the Eurasia attack 6A iirc, it was tanked by WW Accel with a Halo, it definitely doesn't scale to other Saint Tiers as they didn't fight this Accel.

True. But we have no idea if the halo actually does anything besides being a symbiotic thing for Accelerator... Also, considering the one another appearance of the White Wings being used by Accelerator (and Rensa's usage of 'em), there is nothing stating or even implying the halo wasn't around, we just have kamachi focusing on the wings so the halo could still be there but he didn't bother to comment about it.

... Granted, the angel wings are generally superior to saints per Index's statement and there is also no actual statement that the wings are different in power considering Accel was prepared to tank the eurasia attack with his black wings, so they aren't too important... damn kamachi and essentially just making those wings of accel the ToAru verison of DBS' SSJ3 form in terms of relevance and importance in power-scaling.

Also, the Earth Rotational energy part is true but we don't have any direct statements of Accel using it during any of his fights, so we can't just assume he'd be using it.

True.

Hm... Could Post-OT22 Fiamma's feat of directly tanking Othinus' explosion be of help? Like we know that the explosions were individually weak but even if they have 1/999,999,999 of Othinus baseline 5-B power (as per the narration text of the number of explosions reaching nine digits) as a massive low-ball, the explosion Fiamma tanked would be 2.4869696e23 joules, or 59.44 teraton of TNT.

Like we know Aleister fought him and defeated him in an encounter that lasted 700 seconds or 11.6666667 minutes, we know they talked for a bit but we only saw the end of their fight and even if the fight was less than half of the time the fight still would've taken 5 or so minutes. We know that Fiamma likely didn't grow much stronger after that encounter. And Fiamma essentially lost Holy Right as an ability thanks to Touma and Aleister.

... And we know Aleister needed his Blood Sacrifice/Sign magic to amplify his magic by the deaths of his 1,083,092,867 Hazards (granted, we don't know how many hazards died by that point, but even 1/10,000,000 of that number would still led to a 108.309287 multiplier) so he could fight with KL and Kanzaki (and even then, we do have Blood Sign!Aleister thinking that hitting them with a spell with the Blasting Rod 10x multiplier wasn't enough to fully defeat them... also, Aleister told KL of Blasting Rod 10x power, so the spell would be under a 100x multiplier for him, at least), so saints (and saint-tiered people) would still massively upscale Post-OT22 Fiamma.

 

[Doggo]

First of all. ****. Power outage are bitch, nuff said.

Let me guess, you messed with Misaka?

 

[XDragnoir]

Most of the feats that saints (and saint-tiered people) actually scale to, barring accelerator feats (kinda), are Gabriel's. Like if we didn't have Gabriel, we likely either have Saints at 7-C at the lowest to baseline 7-A via mountain statements at the highest.

Yeah, Gabriel did most of them, but now we have a useful feat from Hel and one that scales to Accel, as well as tier 7 feats done by level 4 espers and Mikoto, even if most of them come from Gaby we've got other feats that sustain a general power scale with Saint Tier being somewhere in T6.

Also, what happened with Brunhild's feats?

And we know Kanzaki fought her for some time, we have her directly state that Acqua/William were stronger than it, we have no proof that AF Gab and WWIII Gab have any difference in power (or even True Gab since the only time we saw it we got a statement which basically stated it was at the same level power of 50% WWIIII Gab and the whole pheratic explosion thing was just her gaining back that lost 50%), and Acqua/William absorbed half of its power and added it to his 200% power (which basically just triggered a worse verision of what happened with Saint Killer as it likely ****** up the balancing act he'd to put on to mantain his strength).

I didn't really understand this part, but I think you were just giving the overall situation?

So I don't think the H6A part should be flat-out considered an outliner considering it is still apart of that pheratic explosion feat. At the very most, it could be possible to attach to ratings as a possibly rating.

I get what you mean, but the feats are still different, even if the situation is more or less the same (Gabriel restoring its power and possibly trying to reach the power of its True Form), and that doesn't change the fact H6A isn't consistent for their scaling.

True. But we have no idea if the halo actually does anything besides being a symbiotic thing for Accelerator... Also, considering the one another appearance of the White Wings being used by Accelerator (and Rensa's usage of 'em), there is nothing stating or even implying the halo wasn't around, we just have kamachi focusing on the wings so the halo could still be there but he didn't bother to comment about it.

I mean, the fact the Halo isn't mentioned a single time after the first appearance does imply it was not there, but yeah this part doesn't change anything.

... Granted, the angel wings are generally superior to saints per Index's statement and there is also no actual statement that the wings are different in power considering Accel was prepared to tank the eurasia attack with his black wings, so they aren't too important... damn kamachi and essentially just making those wings of accel the ToAru verison of DBS' SSJ3 form in terms of relevance and importance in power-scaling.

Accel was literally going to sacrifice himself to stop it, being "prepared" here doesn't mean he was confident he could take it, at all.

Also, it's absolutely implied they are different in power because he acquired a Halo and because they are created from a development in his mental state, and since even the Black Wings were already stated to be stronger than Saints, this doesn't even matter.

True.

Hm... Could Post-OT22 Fiamma's feat of directly tanking Othinus' explosion be of help? Like we know that the explosions were individually weak but even if they have 1/999,999,999 of Othinus baseline 5-B power (as per the narration text of the number of explosions reaching nine digits) as a massive low-ball, the explosion Fiamma tanked would be 2.4869696e23 joules, or 59.44 teraton of TNT.

I am 99% sure we don't treat Danmaku like that, it would be better if you created a different thread to ask about it and did something with it later.

Like we know Aleister fought him and defeated him in an encounter that lasted 700 seconds or 11.6666667 minutes, we know they talked for a bit but we only saw the end of their fight and even if the fight was less than half of the time the fight still would've taken 5 or so minutes. We know that Fiamma likely didn't grow much stronger after that encounter. And Fiamma essentially lost Holy Right as an ability thanks to Touma and Aleister.

... And we know Aleister needed his Blood Sacrifice/Sign magic to amplify his magic by the deaths of his 1,083,092,867 Hazards (granted, we don't know how many hazards died by that point, but even 1/10,000,000 of that number would still led to a 108.309287 multiplier) so he could fight with KL and Kanzaki (and even then, we do have Blood Sign!Aleister thinking that hitting them with a spell with the Blasting Rod 10x multiplier wasn't enough to fully defeat them... also, Aleister told KL of Blasting Rod 10x power, so the spell would be under a 100x multiplier for him, at least), so saints (and saint-tiered people) would still massively upscale Post-OT22 Fiamma.

What?

The Crowley hazards don't work as a multiplier like you are implying.

Why does the duration of Aleister's encounter matter? He defeated Fiamma in the first attack, they were talking for 699 seconds.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

What?

The Crowley hazards don't work as a multiplier like you are implying..

It kinda would've to do so to offer some kind of boost

“That is what happens when you try to view it all at once in order to act the wise god. From the look of things, I imagine she is making 10 simultaneous commands using all 10 fingers. And instead of commanding 10 different people, she is commanding 10 different disasters. You must remain calm enough to temporarily throw this in a box labeled ‘mixed’.” The genius known as a fool maintained a composed expression. “Isis-Demeter’s top priority must be Aleister Crowley. That means every last one invading London: the many Crowley’s Hazards and me as I exist in parallel here. Assume that each shot is destroying an average of 50 to 100 of me. Of course, that blood sacrifice will defrag and optimize ‘this me’, so it is not a real problem.”

Like aren't some of Crowley's hazard as comparable to him as magic and their death are then adding something to Aleis-tan's magic... okay, to be more blunt, I've no idea what exactly "defrag and optimize" mean in this situation, so idk how to continue this

Why does the duration of Aleister's encounter matter? He defeated Fiamma in the first attack, they were talking for 699 seconds.

Eh.

It matters mainly because of the fact that Fiamma ate an explosion from Othinus' without Holy Right's protection (probably, considering its presence is never mentioned again after NT4 even in its mirage form) and Aleister was able to harm him.

I am 99% sure we don't treat Danmaku like that, it would be better if you created a different thread to ask about it and did something with it later.

Yeah, I was mainly spitting there. Hence why I didn't draw too much attention to it. Granted, alternative outcome is that during the period between OT22 to NT8, Fiamma suddenly reached 5-B level's of defense since the explosion he ate would still be in the 5-B range of power even if massively inferior to Othinus' oth... okay, Othinus doesn't have any other attacks that isn't "5-B Arrow, lol", 50/50% "**** you, H1C bullshit go" or 100% "**** you, H1C bullshit go" but you get the idea.

I mean, the fact the Halo isn't mentioned a single time after the first appearance does imply it was not there, but yeah this part doesn't change anything.

Accel was literally going to sacrifice himself to stop it, being "prepared" here doesn't mean he was confident he could take it, at all.

Also, it's absolutely implied they are different in power because he acquired a Halo and because they are created from a development in his mental state, and since even the Black Wings were already stated to be stronger than Saints, this doesn't even matter.

Eh. True.

Granted, I am now kinda thinking that Accel's White Wings shouldn't really scale to Fiamma's attack, because-

Accelerator was collapsed atop a hill. Neither Last Order nor Misaka Worst was there. Only the white snow stretched on seemingly forever around him. At an altitude of 8000 meters, he had been struck by the mass of strange energy fired by the fortress, but not even he really understood what had happened after that. The white wings had disappeared from his back. At the very least, he understood that he was alive like that because the great destruction had been stopped at the last second. hi

[-]

They picked up his exhausted body and put him on the stretcher. From above, they wound him in several layers of thick belts. Treating his body as though they were transporting a tool—no, a weapon, they loaded him into the giant helicopter. - BakiTsuki


Accelerator lay atop a hill. Neither Last Order nor Misaka Worst was here. Only the white snow, stretching on as far as the eye could see. Accelerator had crashed into the unknown energy mass fired from the fortress eight thousand meters high, but even he didn’t understand what had happened after that. The white wings had disappeared from his back, too. He decided, at least, that his being barely alive like this meant he was able to stop the destruction at the last moment.

[-]


They picked up his exhausted body and put him on the stretcher. From above, they wound him in several layers of thick belts. Treating his body as though they were transporting a tool—no, a weapon, they loaded him into the giant helicopter. - Yenpress

He doesn't seem to have fully taken all of Fiamma's attack, but still got ****** up somewhat by it and left exhausted by the whole thing - and in yenpress's translations, he was stated to be "being barely alive" after the attack kinda pushes the idea his survival is more just him "surviving the attack" than him having the durability to withstand it. Also, inverse square law and surface area are a thing, i.e, Accel is a small human (albeit with big wings at that moment) and Fiamma's attack is a massive attack.

... kek. I am wasting time again.

Also, what happened with Brunhild's feats?

Her only feat that can be calced, that feat with gungnir, was rejected by DT. Everything else isn't really calc-able... sides trying the idea that her 70% gungnir is comparable to 70% of Othinus' Gungnir - which is the fricking stupid and made extremely clear they can't be comparaed by Kamachi himself in NT10 - or the idea that Othinus durability, while dying from the fairy spell, is still within the 5-B range, which to be fair we do have dying from the fairy spell Othinus' durabilty as "Unknown, likely 5-B" here, and that therefore means Brunhild can get a likely 5-B rating by beating the crap out of her. Which you know is... doesn't need to be stated.

Yeah, Gabriel did most of them, but now we have a useful feat from Hel and one that scales to Accel, as well as tier 7 feats done by level 4 espers and Mikoto, even if most of them come from Gaby we've got other feats that sustain a general power scale with Saint Tier being somewhere in T6.

I didn't really understand this part, but I think you were just giving the overall situation?


I get what you mean, but the feats are still different, even if the situation is more or less the same (Gabriel restoring its power and possibly trying to reach the power of its True Form), and that doesn't change the fact H6A isn't consistent for their scaling.

Yeah, yeah, I get it. Kinda just want to give H6A a shot as it is still massively below Accel's OT13 feat. But 6-B is fine, and massively less work for me, though. I'mma done aruging about it.

Now... time to wait.

 

[XDragnoir]

It kinda would've to do so to offer some kind of boost

No it doesn't, we have no idea how much power each Hazard added but it wasn't stated to be any form of multiplication, so we can't use it as a multiplier, that's literally part of the multiplier rules.

Eh.

It matters mainly because of the fact that Fiamma ate an explosion from Othinus' without Holy Right's protection (probably, considering its presence is never mentioned again after NT4 even in its mirage form) and Aleister was able to harm him.

Aleister completely ignored the Holy Right and Fiamma has no defensive spells other than it that we know, meanwhile we have no idea how he survived the Wall of Explosions, Iirc it's not even stated he took any explosion directly.

Yeah, I was mainly spitting there. Hence why I didn't draw too much attention to it. Granted, alternative outcome is that during the period between OT22 to NT8, Fiamma suddenly reached 5-B level's of defense since the explosion he ate would still be in the 5-B range of power even if massively inferior to Othinus' oth... okay, Othinus doesn't have any other attacks that isn't "5-B Arrow, lol", 50/50% "**** you, H1C bullshit go" or 100% "**** you, H1C bullshit go" but you get the idea.

Again, I don't remember him being stated to tank any explosion, and iirc wasn't him in super stealth mode at the time? I'd have to read it again tho.

Her only feat that can be calced, that feat with gungnir, was rejected by DT. Everything else isn't really calc-able... sides trying the idea that her 70% gungnir is comparable to 70% of Othinus' Gungnir - which is the fricking stupid and made extremely clear they can't be comparaed by Kamachi himself in NT10 - or the idea that Othinus durability, while dying from the fairy spell, is still within the 5-B range, which to be fair we do have dying from the fairy spell Othinus' durabilty as "Unknown, likely 5-B" here, and that therefore means Brunhild can get a likely 5-B rating by beating the crap out of her. Which you know is... doesn't need to be stated.

Ehhh

I'd rather not scale anyone to Dying Othinus, but idk, we can discuss more into that later off site.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

No it doesn't, we have no idea how much power each Hazard added but it wasn't stated to be any form of multiplication, so we can't use it as a multiplier, that's literally part of the multiplier rules.

True. And the Hazard themselves give me a headache, so let's forget about 'em.

Aleister completely ignored the Holy Right and Fiamma has no defensive spells other than it that we know, meanwhile we have no idea how he survived the Wall of Explosions, Iirc it's not even stated he took any explosion directly.

Again, I don't remember him being stated to tank any explosion, and iirc wasn't him in super stealth mode at the time? I'd have to read it again tho.

Eh, I think this is more than enough to prove he got hit directly.

A moment later, another fairy stake accurately pierced straight through her heart.

“Dah…”

She did not even have time to turn around.

She mercilessly filled the space behind her with explosions that’s numbers reached at least nine digits. Something was crushed and a great roar stabbed through the wrecked ships piled up around them.

She could not breathe properly.

Othinus turned around with the awkward motions of a machine in need of oil. Finally, she saw the second attacker.

“Fiamma…of the Right…!?”

“I performed a valuable experiment back in Academy City.”

The one-armed young man wearing red gave a slight smile while half-buried in the wreckage of ships.

A dark red liquid trailed down from the corner of his mouth.

"Something was crushed", "a great roar stabbed through the wrecked ships piled up around them", "The one-armed young man wearing red gave a slight smile while half-buried in the wreckage of ships", and "A dark red liquid trailed down from the corner of his mouth" are more than say he got hit and tanked/withstood an attack by Othinus.

And I 100% doubt Aleister bypassed Holy Right since we have this;

Fiamma’s third arm that responded to malice had been weakened to the point that it could be destroyed by even Imagine Breaker. Small pieces of virtue had spread like ripples until they had filled the entire surface of the earth effectively breaking the core that supported Fiamma’s power.

The power that made Fiamma of the Right special no longer existed.

It was doubtful whether he could use his direct attacks with his third arm or his evasion using instantaneous horizontal movement over kilometers. -Bakatsuki

Fiamma’s third arm, which responded to malice, had weakened to the point where even the Imagine Breaker could destroy it. As a result of that small goodness rippling out to cover the surface, the shaft supporting Fiamma’s power had broken.

The power that made Fiamma of the Right special no longer existed.

Indirect forms of attack from the third arm were unlikely, of course— but so was his evasive maneuver that instantly moved him kilometers away in a horizontal direction. - Yenpress

So while Fiamma did manifest that Bird Arm in his fight with Aleister, he likely didn't have any real hax with it left like his auto-defense or movement hax. Considering we have two direct statement of Fiamma having "lost" the power that made his special was do-so.

Ehhh

I'd rather not scale anyone to Dying Othinus, but idk, we can discuss more into that later off site.

Sure.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

... Wait, why are we talking about stuff that doesn't really fit the purpose of this CRT. I.E, the high-tier / saints/saint-tiered people. People like Fiamma (and technically Aleister as well) are top-tiered people, or the folks that are second to the literal god-tier people in the verse. kek.

 

[XDragnoir]

"Something was crushed", "a great roar stabbed through the wrecked ships piled up around them", "The one-armed young man wearing red gave a slight smile while half-buried in the wreckage of ships", and "A dark red liquid trailed down from the corner of his mouth" are more than say he got hit and tanked/withstood an attack by Othinus.

Yeah, I went back to read their fight and found that part, but as you said, this is about the high tier so we should leave it to a next thread.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Yep... not entirely sure what to do now. The problem with the 6-B calc that DT expressed has been replace with two another 6-B calc that existed as a back up calcs, so... idk. Do I continue? Wait? Idk.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Welp, I sure missed that this thread continued.

Even if we drop the Mjolnir part, it doesn't change anything:

Gabriel still has this 6B feat, obviously the H6A part is an outlier but the 6B explosion works well enough.

To sum things up, the feats of the verse are:

6B - Gabriel's phreatic explosion
6B - Hel freezing the ocean
L6B - Accel scaling to the Terraforming Bomb
6C/H6C - Gabriel's suicide explosion and the 2x multiplier over it.
6C - the current feat they scale, Gabriel vaporizing a mountain

Gabriel had that 6B feat for ages, but it never scaled to anyone.

That's Gabriel after the four elements were realigned. What evidence is there of that scaling to anyone? Especially Hel...

Also, where is the suicide explosion stuff coming from?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Welp, I sure missed that this thread continued.

Gabriel had that 6B feat for ages, but it never scaled to anyone.

That's Gabriel after the four elements were realigned. What evidence is there of that scaling to anyone?

And nothing states that Gabriel got any stronger after the four elements were realigned.

The massive amount of Telesma that was scattered around the area gathered in one spot.
The archangel had been torn apart once by the power of the scientific monsters, but that had not harmed her essence. If you swung your fist down at the water, it would burst apart in a splash, but the actual amount of water would not lessen. It was the same as that.
But it was not enough.
It was not perfect.
Because her actions had been obstructed once before, the archangel wished for an increased amount of practical power. The archangel knew well what the material needed for that was. She ruled over water. Russia in winter was covered in snow, but even melting all of that would not be enough.
But it was not enough.
It was not perfect.
But it was not enough.
It was not perfect.
But…hwsr…it was not enough.
It…zvdf…was not…zdfb…perfect.
Bu…gggaaaaaaaaa.
That’s right.
She needed to be extra sure when it came to the overwhelming power needed to turn around the situation. It had to be a large amount of ice that had special signs and symbols. For example, the special ice that existed at the planet’s pole.

“Misha Kreutzev has begun to move north at high speed!! At the same time, the ice at the North Pole has begun to rapidly melt!! I have detected a powerful line of Telesma between the two! A mutual interference between them is clearly being created!!”
“Is she making a new power? …No, she might be replenishing her physical body,” Stiyl muttered while frowning.

We got a statement in where Gabriel itself felt that its power wasn't enough to deal with Hyouka and Accelerator again. And a direct statement that states Gabriel was replenishing her body (and power due to being an energy being) after the interference with Acqua, who had absorbed 50% of her power and exploded because of it... Who was also had DDM back, judging by Hamazura seemingly seeing Acqua casting magic, due to whatever he did prior to the end of OT21.

We also had nobody but Fiamma (in OT) notice or apparently get stronger from the elements realigned... Even then he needed Imagine Breaker inside of him and than "transform" into "The One Above God" to get stronger in the first place, so it is likely he's the sole exception rather then the rule.

I also have a bunch of other problems with Fiamma like him needing to absorb external telsma after "His One Above God" form bought heaven down to earth to do his eurasia feat in the first place or that his ocean vap statement is which him assuming Holy Right had the power to do (and came when he was essentially him having a mini-break down due to the world rejecting his plan and Touma ******* up everything he planned for) and thus his "base form" likely upscales vastly from the high-tiers but isn't several tiers higher than them , but that's future talk.

Nevertheless, nothing that state Gabriel was any stronger and everything Gabriel did implies it felt its current power was less than enough.

Especially Hel...

Holding off two saints for a notable period of time (or for however long it took for Silva to learn Ollerus' status after NT8) and not dying.

Brunhild is compable to Kanzaki (who can keep up with Gabriel), but doesn't have her CIS, i.e, extremely kill happy and doesn't hold back (as evident by her immediately attempting to turn Mikoto into gore on the ground as soon as she stood in her way in NT6). Siliva, who can backscale to Knight Leader Carssia w/Curtana Original, who are somewhat on a prime Acqua's level, who by kanzaki own admission was vastly stronger than Gabriel.

Sure, Siliva might **** around when things don't really matter, but Brunhild doesn't and Siliva wouldn't have a reason to mess around with Hel considering she knows the threat of Othinus and that the world is ****** if she is successful

Also, where is the suicide explosion stuff coming from?

When Gabriel suddenly exploded and Accelerator and Hyouka stopped it. Not sure while Noir is calling it a suicide explosion, though.

... Okay, out-of-topic time. Most of the ToAru profile suck. And the justifications on each and every one on the profiles suck even worse. Like they are genuinely the reason I have not done much editing on profiles since they are either too long-winded or do elaborate on enough details... or just too generalized. And really made me regret on doing upgrade CRTs before tackling them in the first place

Real talk. Before you messaged in this thread, DT. I was trying to come up with a message in your DM to request to shut down this thread (and probably my other threads since I think a CRT limit is a thing now), so I can work on a CRT to fix as many profiles' stats justifications as possible and then slowly work on the upgrades/downgrades from there... ye, I would've also personally reverted my changes from this CRT as well.

 

[DontTalkDT]

And nothing states that Gabriel got any stronger after the four elements were realigned.


We got a statement in where Gabriel itself felt that its power wasn't enough to deal with Hyouka and Accelerator again. And a direct statement that states Gabriel was replenishing her body (and power due to being an energy being) after the interference with Acqua, who had absorbed 50% of her power and exploded because of it... Who was also had DDM back, judging by Hamazura seemingly seeing Acqua casting magic, due to whatever he did prior to the end of OT21.

We also had nobody but Fiamma (in OT) notice or apparently get stronger from the elements realigned... Even then he needed Imagine Breaker inside of him and than "transform" into "The One Above God" to get stronger in the first place, so it is likely he's the sole exception rather then the rule.

I also have a bunch of other problems with Fiamma like him needing to absorb external telsma after "His One Above God" form bought heaven down to earth to do his eurasia feat in the first place or that his ocean vap statement is which him assuming Holy Right had the power to do (and came when he was essentially him having a mini-break down due to the world rejecting his plan and Touma ******* up everything he planned for) and thus his "base form" likely upscales vastly from the high-tiers but isn't several tiers higher than them , but that's future talk.

Nevertheless, nothing that state Gabriel was any stronger and everything Gabriel did implies it felt its current power was less than enough.

First, the burden of proof regarding any backwards scaling is on the one proposing it. People do not backwards scale by default. You need evidence that they do. So "nothing said he got stronger" is not a legit argument.

Second, Fiamma got stronget and his powet is alignef with Michael. In general angels are deeply connected to the four elements, as they stand in direct correspondence. IIRC Fiamma said that him being able to even summon Gavriel was due to how distortef they were. So there is plenty of reason to assume archangels got stronger after the elements they are and wield are not messed up anymore.

And yeah, Gabriel was runninh on fumes. But that's because its energy pool was close to empty. It's not the he was weak, but that he got bo stamina left.

Holding off two saints for a notable period of time (or for however long it took for Silva to learn Ollerus' status after NT8) and not dying.

Brunhild is compable to Kanzaki (who can keep up with Gabriel), but doesn't have her CIS, i.e, extremely kill happy and doesn't hold back (as evident by her immediately attempting to turn Mikoto into gore on the ground as soon as she stood in her way in NT6). Siliva, who can backscale to Knight Leader Carssia w/Curtana Original, who are somewhat on a prime Acqua's level, who by kanzaki own admission was vastly stronger than Gabriel.

Sure, Siliva might **** around when things don't really matter, but Brunhild doesn't and Siliva wouldn't have a reason to mess around with Hel considering she knows the threat of Othinus and that the world is ****** if she is successful

Hel uses hax. As it stands we do not know which techniqued she employed to buy time.

When Gabriel suddenly exploded and Accelerator and Hyouka stopped it. Not sure while Noir is calling it a suicide explosion, though.

I know the explosion, but what about a calc or multiplier regarding it?

... Okay, out-of-topic time. Most of the ToAru profile suck. And the justifications on each and every one on the profiles suck even worse. Like they are genuinely the reason I have not done much editing on profiles since they are either too long-winded or do elaborate on enough details... or just too generalized. And really made me regret on doing upgrade CRTs before tackling them in the first place

Real talk. Before you messaged in this thread, DT. I was trying to come up with a message in your DM to request to shut down this thread (and probably my other threads since I think a CRT limit is a thing now), so I can work on a CRT to fix as many profiles' stats justifications as possible and then slowly work on the upgrades/downgrades from there... ye, I would've also personally reverted my changes from this CRT as well.

Do as you like. Personally I had the impression the justifications made sense at the time they were written. Problem is that they did not get updated when certain CRTs were applied.

Although I will do the 8B revision sometime soon as well. That will also require a scaling rework.

(also, excuse the spelling ib this post. I'm On my phone.)

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Got it. Close this thread, DT.

 

[XDragnoir]

First, the burden of proof regarding any backwards scaling is on the one proposing it. People do not backwards scale by default. You need evidence that they do. So "nothing said he got stronger" is not a legit argument.

No, burden of proof is on the positive claim, wtf? You're claiming this Gabriel is stronger than before, you have to prove it. The way his profile is currently is just literally based on absolutely nothing.

It's literally the same Gabriel from the start of the war and he was literally weakened to 50% of his power... LITERALLY, we literally know that "form" was weaker than the one at the start of the war.

Second, Fiamma got stronget and his powet is alignef with Michael. In general angels are deeply connected to the four elements, as they stand in direct correspondence. IIRC Fiamma said that him being able to even summon Gavriel was due to how distortef they were. So there is plenty of reason to assume archangels got stronger after the elements they are and wield are not messed up anymore.

And yet this means absolutely nothing because the above point is already wrong.

100% Gabriel is > 50% Gabriel

I have no idea why this even requires an explanation, absolutely everyone, even Gabriel, was talking about Gabriel getting its power back after Fiamma lost control over it, there is absolutely nothing saying the elements had any impact and if it had, it wasn't to the point it had surpassed 100% Gabriel.

And yeah, Gabriel was runninh on fumes. But that's because its energy pool was close to empty. It's not the he was weak, but that he got bo stamina left.

That... that's wrong, Gabriel wasn't running low on energy the same way a normal human loses stamina, Gabriel got straight 50% of its Telesma, the very energy it's made of and uses to attack, drained out.

What in the false equivalency.

I know the explosion, but what about a calc or multiplier regarding it?

The one Hyouka/Accel blocked or the one it would cause while restoring its power?