(7-2-0) Tadano (SMT) v.s Sumireko (Touhou)

[FantaRin_The_First]

Just An Ordinary Person VS The Matchless, Unparalleled Psychic

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• The battle will take place in front of the Hakurei Shrine.
• The starting distance has them start five meters away from each other.
• Speed is equal
• Sumireko's Key is Base (Low 2-C), Tadano's Key is Early Game (Low 2-C)
• Both are bloodlusted. No prior knowledge for either characters. Will switch to in-character if bloodlusting both of them doesn't help.

Tadano Hitonari: 7 (@Milly_Rocking_Bandit, @Lukewoesal007, @AxisPowerRanger, @KnightOfSunlight, @azontr, @MarvelFanatic119, @Reploidnoridomix)

Sumireko Usami: 2 (@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara, @BEASTHEART880)

Both of them get turned into popsicles by The Strongest (Incon):

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Figured it would be fun to do an SMT vs Touhou match; neither of them are too broken or carries a shit-ton of hax when compared to their fellow verse members in their respective verses... so why not?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well my first question is how potent Tadano's NPI is, as Sumireko couldn't be touched by Reimu in Gensokyo, and Reimu regularly interacts with ghosts, abstract ideas, dreams, and nonexistent entities. My second question is how good would he be at dodging Sumireko's danmaku. Even if he is invulnerable (and tbh his invulnerability isn't explained in his P&A section so idk how applicable it is), it won't stop spirit manip from at least incapping.

Granted if he does have good enough NPI and can dodge Sumireko's danmaku long enough, I believe his dura neg would probably be enough to kill Sumireko. So right now I'm leaning towards Sumireko, but it depends on what Tadano opens with (paralysis and fear inducement would incap Sumireko long enough for him to get the kill).

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

SMT's Doomguy's NPI scales from Flynn who has strike down the informational forms of Demons and entities considered formless even in relation to those, such as The White, i.e, folks who have layered intag, so he might be able to bypass Sumireko's layered intag with his layered NPI... Possibly.

As for your second question, well... It is weird. He's an RPG character. he either endures it or dodges it; but I am willing to bet that Tadano would try to tank Sumireko's attacks first and would then try to dodge her attacks after he picks up its properties. I also don't recall where the invulnerable came from, but it likely just notes his possible immunities towards elemental, light (holy), and dark (death) magical attacks via special armor... which isn't listed in his standard equipment. Meh, it is already noted in his resistance anyhow.

And for what Tadano would open up with...? Shot gun, and try to get close to attack with combat knife. That's it. He also needs to hit Sumireko with his bullets to induce fear or paralysis as well.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I see. So I'll assume he can hit Sumireko with layered NPI for the sake of fairness. If Tadano goes for tanking Sumi's danmaku, there's nothing preventing his stamina and stats being absorbed, which basically incaps right off the bat. If his invulnerability is specific to certain elements (elements which Sumireko doesn't even use), I feel like being too tired to move after a few hits would give Sumireko more than enough opportunity to overpower and kill him before he can do anything. I also don't see him dodging danmaku as easily when Sumireko's gravity manip could easily just hold him in place... or do the same with telekinesis due to the sizable difference in LS.

As for Tadano's wincons, idk how reliable his bullets would be when Sumireko already dodges insane danmaku on a regular basis and has a mobility advantage with flight and teleportation. Duplication is another option for dodging, and would also make any potential danmaku dodging way harder on Tadano's end. Definitely voting Sumireko until someone comes up with some solid advantages for Tadano.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

wait shit why does everything except his LS have 5 keys this is confusing

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

RPG Power Creep, baby!

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Also, vote counted.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Sumireko FRA for now

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Vote is counted!

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

I'll put my 2 cents here. All of Tadano's attack is a hax combo, his attack is filled with things such as conceptual hax, and informational hax. All of them at 1-A level (I'm pretty sure that's accepted here). Danmaku with soul hax, Tadano has RE+RPL that is capable of evolving to 1-A, so soul hax is about to get resisted by his sheer will since he already have resistance to that anyway (which also a 1-A hax since demons can launch spiritual attack to attack information that are 1-A in nature). I think it's just a matter of time untill Tadano hit her with one his arsenal.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Actually, are we even sure the dura neg would work at all? His profile says his attacks can only be healed with spiritual power, which Sumireko obviously has. Also even if he does adapt to Sumireko's hax, he only needs to get incapped once (whether it be via stamina draining, telekinesis, or whatever else) for her to just overpower his regen by burning him to ashes with her fire manip. Also remember that resistance negation is a thing for spirit manipulation so idk how useful RE would even be.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Why would Tadano be affected by Sumireko's telekiness? Like... She only has Class 5 LS, and Tadano has Immeasurable LS, which is beyond Infinite LS. He also doesn't have any regen; he actually doesn't have any "magical power", i.e, elemental attacks and/or healing spells. Tadano only has regen-negation (High-Mid), so Sumireko can hurt him just fine... probably won't be able to heal shit, tho, since healing negation and Sumireko doesn't have any healing abilities on her profile.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Oh, I thought his immeasurable LS was for a different key, figured he was just superhuman in the key you were using. Nvm about Sumireko restraining him with telekinesis then. I also thought that the healing, regen, and invulnerability were for Tadano himself and weren't negation, the page didn't exactly make that clear. But yeah, my point still stands that Sumireko is more likely to hit Tadano first, and once she does, she has enough time to overpower him (especially with Spirit manip increasing her strength with every hit) before he can really do anything.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

How fast can this person kill Tadano? She has a total of one minute before he goes from being relative to being capable of stomping out his opponent, which is especially bad for Tadano, since his armor is tailor made to RE.

Also, her healing, unless it flows on a conceptual level, will get incapable of mending any wounds done. Minds = Souls (Spirits) = Information = Concepts in Megami Tensei, and even then, it requires pretty powerful spiritual power, since even Demons can be inflicted with month-long wounds.

Range is also a non-factor, considering he can summon his Demons, a total of three max in tandem with himself. Her Danmaku will do effectively nothing with three other support members that can make barriers strong enough to keep 1-A EE/Void manipulation out on a conceptual level, and capable of dishing out danmaku of their own.

Tadano, negative difficulty, in my view.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

Tadano FRA

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

How fast can this person kill Tadano? She has a total of one minute before he goes from being relative to being capable of stomping out his opponent, which is especially bad for Tadano, since his armor is tailor made to RE.

One minute is more than enough time for someone who is relatively comparable and can spam hundreds of attacks simultaneously. The moment Tadano gets incapped, even if it's only briefly, he's as good as dead.

Also, her healing, unless it flows on a conceptual level, will get incapable of mending any wounds done. Minds = Souls (Spirits) = Information = Concepts in Megami Tensei, and even then, it requires pretty powerful spiritual power, since even Demons can be inflicted with month-long wounds.

Nvm then, though her healing is only a specific form of recovery from damage to the soul and mind. Nothing about concepts or information is inherent to spirit power. Though I'm sure there's some obscure interview out there that would make that the case.

Range is also a non-factor, considering he can summon his Demons, a total of three max in tandem with himself. Her Danmaku will do effectively nothing with three other support members that can make barriers strong enough to keep 1-A EE/Void manipulation out on a conceptual level, and capable of dishing out danmaku of their own.

He would need to 1. Specifically start off with summoning 2. Do so before Sumireko does literally anything and 3. Specifically summon the kinds of demons that have those abilities. Though those might be universal demon traits, but either way, points 1 & 2 make this a very specific win condition compared to Sumireko just hitting him once and wailing on him until he dies with minimal resistance.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

He would need to 1. Specifically start off with summoning

Considering he utilizes demons in literally every fight after he initially gains access to them, I believe summoning would be his first move.

2. Do so before Sumireko does literally anything and

I'm unsure if there's an official scan that clarifies demon summoning times, but the in-game animations depict the process as being almost instantaneous.

3. Specifically summon the kinds of demons that have those abilities.

It's an ability inherent to even low-tier demons.

 

[Eganergo]

Even the weakest demon has this

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

How fast can this person kill Tadano? She has a total of one minute before he goes from being relative to being capable of stomping out his opponent, which is especially bad for Tadano, since his armor is tailor made to RE.

Also, her healing, unless it flows on a conceptual level, will get incapable of mending any wounds done. Minds = Souls (Spirits) = Information = Concepts in Megami Tensei, and even then, it requires pretty powerful spiritual power, since even Demons can be inflicted with month-long wounds.

Range is also a non-factor, considering he can summon his Demons, a total of three max in tandem with himself. Her Danmaku will do effectively nothing with three other support members that can make barriers strong enough to keep 1-A EE/Void manipulation out on a conceptual level, and capable of dishing out danmaku of their own.

Tadano, negative difficulty, in my view.

Isn't that assuming a bit too much, though? Like, isn't that stuff just used for cutscene/story stuff and never used for the player character or by any demons in-game? Just saying.

Even the weakest demon has this

Also, hm... While a problem, wouldn't all Sumireko need to do to desummon Tadano's demons is to just destory his armor enough or smth since it is the thing that holds the Demon Summoning Program? Isn't it consistent in SMT that destoying the thing that houses the DSP (Be it arm-computers, phones, rip-off DSs, computer guns, etc) is more than enough to just desummon all of one's demons? Sumireko also has a viable way of knocking out Tadano via Spirit Manipulation, so wouldn't that desummon his demons as well?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Also, vote counted.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

One minute is more than enough time for someone who is relatively comparable and can spam hundreds of attacks simultaneously. The moment Tadano gets incapped, even if it's only briefly, he's as good as dead.

1-A barriers.

He would need to 1. Specifically start off with summoning 2. Do so before Sumireko does literally anything and 3. Specifically summon the kinds of demons that have those abilities. Though those might be universal demon traits, but either way, points 1 & 2 make this a very specific win condition compared to Sumireko just hitting him once and wailing on him until he dies with minimal resistance.

Any, and all Demons can do this. Even fairies like Trish, an unremarkable pixie can. Tadano starts with summoning, that’s the entire premise of him having the Demon Summoning Program.

Also, hm... While a problem, wouldn't all Sumireko need to do to desummon Tadano's demons is to just destory his armor enough or smth since it is the thing that holds the Demon Summoning Program? Isn't it consistent in SMT that destoying the thing that houses the DSP (Be it arm-computers, phones, rip-off DSs, computer guns, etc) is more than enough to just desummon all of one's demons? Sumireko also has a viable way of knocking out Tadano via Spirit Manipulation, so wouldn't that desummon his demons as well?

What’s her AP? Though I doubt it matters, Tadano scales above above many Low 2-C individuals, and all his stats increase as he continues he fights. What is Spirit Manipulation, is it soul manipulation? If so, Tadano blows it off unless it’s at a 1-A level.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Here you go for the Spirit Manipulation thingy.

Spirit Manipulation (Touhou Project)

Spirit, also referred to as Spirit Power, Spirit Energy, Temperament, and so on, is a power source commonly found throughout the Touhou Project series. It functions as the power-up system in the bullet hell titles, while it is a character's special meter in the fighting games. Spirit does not...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Also, for further Touhou questions... Best to wait for Mad Dog of Fujiwara, since she is the 2hu Expert.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

1-A barriers.


Any, and all Demons can do this. Even fairies like Trish, an unremarkable pixie can. Tadano starts with summoning, that’s the entire premise of him having the Demon Summoning Program.

Neither of those matter is summoning takes longer than it does for Sumireko to fire off a single shot, incapping him by draining his stamina and nulling his powers.

What’s her AP? Though I doubt it matters, Tadano scales above above many Low 2-C individuals, and all his stats increase as he continues his fight? What is Spirit Manipulation, is it soul manipulation? If so, Tadano blows it off unless it’s at a 1-A level.

Sumireko is like, baseline low 2-C in this key. Spirit manipulation is this, but the TL;DR is that it's soulhax, mindhax, stamina draining, stat absorption, power null, and resistance negation rolled into one ability. Since it triggers on every basic attack, the moment Sumireko even taps Tadano with a danmaku bullet, summoning becomes unusable due to the power null and stamina drain.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Here you go for the Spirit Manipulation thingy.

Spirit Manipulation (Touhou Project)

Spirit, also referred to as Spirit Power, Spirit Energy, Temperament, and so on, is a power source commonly found throughout the Touhou Project series. It functions as the power-up system in the bullet hell titles, while it is a character's special meter in the fighting games. Spirit does not...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Also, for further Touhou questions... Best to wait for Mad Dog of Fujiwara, since she is the 2hu Expert.

Yeah, Tadano either already resists these powers, or his DEMONICA suit will simply allow him to adapt to anything foreign and become highly resistant to it.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Neither of those matter is summoning takes longer than it does for Sumireko to fire off a single shot, incapping him by draining his stamina and nulling his powers.

You made the positive claim, now, prove it.

Yeah, Tadano either already resists these powers, or his DEMONICA suit will simply allow him to adapt to anything foreign and become highly resistant to it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

You made the positive claim, now, prove it.

It doesn't matter if he can adapt because 1. resistance negation is a thing and 2. it literally only needs to work once for Sumireko to leave him helpless for long enough for her to beat his ass with no resistance. Keep in mind that, due to the stat absorption, Sumi would continually get stronger while Tadano would continually get weaker, meaning even if Tadano upscaled drastically from baseline low 2-C, it wouldn't take very long for Sumireko to overpower him.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

It doesn't matter if he can adapt because 1. resistance negation is a thing and 2. it literally only needs to work once for Sumireko to leave him helpless for long enough for her to beat his ass with no resistance. Keep in mind that, due to the stat absorption, Sumi would continually get stronger while Tadano would continually get weaker, meaning even if Tadano upscaled drastically from baseline low 2-C, it wouldn't take very long for Sumireko to overpower him.

You entirely dodged my response. I said prove that his summoning takes longer than it takes for her shoot, please prove your assertion.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

You entirely dodged my response. I said prove that his summoning takes longer than it takes for her shoot, please prove your assertion.

I can't answer that because I don't know how long it even takes for him to summon a demon. Is there anything in SMT stating how long it usually takes?

Also keep in mind that, with speed equalized, the demon would also have to bring up the barrier in order to block Sumireko's attacks, and considering Sumireko's first move is danmaku, when taking into account the time taken to summon a demon AND the time it takes for the demon to set up a barrier, that danmaku is more than likely to hit.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I can't answer that because I don't know how long it even takes for him to summon a demon. Is there anything in SMT stating how long it usually takes?

So you can’t prove your assumption, meaning it isn’t slower. It’s instantaneous in game, as for all summoning in Megami Tensei.

Also keep in mind that, with speed equalized, the demon would also have to bring up the barrier in order to block Sumireko's attacks, and considering Sumireko's first move is danmaku, when taking into account the time taken to summon a demon AND the time it takes for the demon to set up a barrier, that danmaku is more than likely to hit.

Moves in Megami Tensei are thought-based.

It doesn't matter if he can adapt because 1. resistance negation is a thing and 2. it literally only needs to work once for Sumireko to leave him helpless for long enough for her to beat his ass with no resistance.

This is also a complete non-factor.

Resistance Negation: Spirit Manipulation is shown to always function on characters who have some degree of resistance to Soul Manipulation, regardless of the extent of their resistance (eg; Reimu Hakurei and Mononobe no Futo).

Unless it can bypass his 1-A Soul Manipulation resistance, she will be nullifying absolutely nothing. But even in the unlikely scenario she even manages to do this, ultimately, she faces Tadano’s most broken ability: Willpower.

Humans have the ability to grow massively stronger during fights, even if the opponent is capable of completing razing them effortlessly. Most dangerous about this, is that they can entirely recover their will to fight, replenish heath and stamina, and increase all of their stats simply by displaying their resolve through dialogue.

It goes without saying, this makes her entire gimmick essentially worthless in the face of human willpower. I see no definitive wincon she holds over Tadano.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

So you can’t prove your assumption, meaning it isn’t slower. It’s instantaneous in game, as for all summoning in Megami Tensei.

Moves in Megami Tensei are thought-based.

I couldn't prove my assumption because you didn't give me the information I needed to make a reasonable assumption :v

Anyways they would still need to, y'know, react to Sumireko's attacks before doing anything about them. And these are hundreds of attacks that span numerous directions, and Sumireko has a mobility advantage with flight and teleportation. Blocking all of those isn't exactly easy. Unless the barrier is omnidirectional in which case ignore that part

This is also a complete non-factor.

Resistance Negation: Spirit Manipulation is shown to always function on characters who have some degree of resistance to Soul Manipulation, regardless of the extent of their resistance (eg; Reimu Hakurei and Mononobe no Futo).

Unless it can bypass his 1-A Soul Manipulation resistance, she will be nullifying absolutely nothing. But even in the unlikely scenario she even manages to do this, ultimately, she faces Tadano’s most broken ability: Willpower.

Humans have the ability to grow massively stronger during fights, even if the opponent is capable of completing razing them effortlessly. Most dangerous about this, is that they can entirely recover their will to fight, replenish heath and stamina, and increase all of their stats simply by displaying their resolve through dialogue.

It goes without saying, this makes her entire gimmick essentially worthless in the face of human willpower. I see no definitive wincon she holds over Tadano.

That's... not how resistance negation works. It doesn't matter how many layers of resistance Tadano has or what potency those resistances are, they will be negated, because resistance negation is specifically about just ignoring resistance to hax, not about hax potency. Spirit manip should even work on characters who should be fully immune to it but staff didn't accept that which is kinda cringe :/

I'm aware how RE works. My point is that, before that's able to become a factor, Sumireko would take advantage of the brief moment she is able to incap Tadano and just steamroll him. It works once and never again, which is cool, but it only needs to work once.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I couldn't prove my assumption because you didn't give me the information I needed to make a reasonable assumption :v

I said he summoned demons - not that it was an arduous task.

Anyways they would still need to, y'know, react to Sumireko's attacks before doing anything about them. And these are hundreds of attacks that span numerous directions, and Sumireko has a mobility advantage with flight and teleportation. Blocking all of those isn't exactly easy. Unless the barrier is omnidirectional in which case ignore that part

They can make omnidirectional barriers, as all spells in Megami Tensei are malleable.

That's... not how resistance negation works. It doesn't matter how many layers of resistance Tadano has or what potency those resistances are, they will be negated, because resistance negation is specifically about just ignoring resistance to hax, not about hax potency. Spirit manip should even work on characters who should be fully immune to it but staff didn't accept that which is kinda cringe :/

No. That is the definition of a No Limits Fallacy. Unless you can prove that she can bypass 1-A resistances, a scope of power far beyond anything Touhou can even begin to conceptualize, she won’t bypass any of his hax.

I'm aware how RE works. My point is that, before that's able to become a factor, Sumireko would take advantage of the brief moment she is able to incap Tadano and just steamroll him. It works once and never again, which is cool, but it only needs to work once.

The thing is - she won’t. He’ll get up, again, and again, and again. Because he doesn’t want to die, he’ll get stronger. Because he has comrades to protect, he’ll grow faster. Because he isn’t through fighting, he’ll keep recovering. She’s fighting a perpetual motion machine of a man, and she has no way to get past it. DEMONICA will boost his resistance every single time.

 

[AxisPowerRanger]

Guy who mating pressed Lucifer(Tadano) FRA.

 

[Reploidnoridomix]

wait the low 2-C smt have the 1-A hax ???,i thought they just have 5-D to 6-D bruh

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

SMT's Doomguy asks his demons if they're okay and then shoots via his insane willpower FRA

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I said he summoned demons - not that it was an arduous task.


They can make omnidirectional barriers, as all spells in Megami Tensei are malleable.

What exactly is stopping Sumireko from teleporting inside the barrier?

No. That is the definition of a No Limits Fallacy. Unless you can prove that she can bypass 1-A resistances, a scope of power far beyond anything Touhou can even begin to conceptualize, she won’t bypass any of his hax.

you say that now but the verse already has solid arguments for low 1-A.... only a matter of time

That is literally just how resistance negation works though. It by definition ignores resistances regardless of their strength, because the resistance itself is not even a factor to begin with. That's like saying abilities that negate invulnerability are a NLF because you aren't supposed to be able to bypass invulnerability.

The thing is - she won’t. He’ll get up, again, and again, and again. Because he doesn’t want to die, he’ll get stronger. Because he has comrades to protect, he’ll grow faster. Because he isn’t through fighting, he’ll keep recovering. She’s fighting a perpetual motion machine of a man, and she has no way to get past it. DEMONICA will boost his resistance every single time.

And here you are going into an NLF of your own. He can't die despite Sumireko negating his resistances, nulling his powers, and increasing her own stats in tandem with Tadano while draining his stamina, because he doesn't want to die. If Sumireko has the potential to briefly incap Tadano - which she does - she can kill him before the RE kicks in and he starts gaining the advantage. Literally everything you're saying is based on the idea that Tadano won't die before the RE kicks in, because he has RE..., which makes 0 ******* sense because Sumireko beating his ass would occur before the RE. He needs to survive everything she throws at him while incapacitated, which he cannot do due to resistance negating hax and an ever-growing AP gap in Sumireko's favor.

 

[azontr]

Shin Mechadmi Tensei FRA.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

That is literally just how resistance negation works though. It by definition ignores resistances regardless of their strength, because the resistance itself is not even a factor to begin with. That's like saying abilities that negate invulnerability are a NLF because you aren't supposed to be able to bypass invulnerability.

This is incorrect. Resistance Negation only works on Resistances of levels it has shown to negate, not any resistance at all. You can't negate 1-A resistances with 1-C Resistance Negation.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Guy who mating pressed Lucifer(Tadano) FRA.

SMT's Doomguy asks his demons if they're okay and then shoots via his insane willpower FRA

Shin Mechadmi Tensei FRA.

Votes counted.

 

[Reploidnoridomix]

wait the low 2-C smt have the 1-A hax ???,i thought they just have 5-D to 6-D bruh

can someone explain to me pl :v

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

I mean, what stops the Demons for spamming Kaja and Kunda spells to amp up Tadano and them and weaken Sumi here? They spawn on the person BTW, you can't really dodge them so teleporting wouldn't work.

My vote goes to Tadano.