3A Syn Shenron makes no sense

[Firestorm808]

@LordWhis

Amped Nuova?

 

[ByAsura]

It's when Nuova was amped with some dark energy. In the Japanese sub, they don't say "a small portion of negative energy", they imply he was amped by the four star dragon ball after Syn tainted it when he absorbed them all.

 

[My_area]

First attack was a surprise but second one wasn't and it killed Nuova

The difference is that its bad habit for Goku to drop his guard often which lowered his power alot and Goku suffers from this severly which Whis even explained few episodes back

while Nuova was naturally offguarded which did lower his power but not to Goku extent and the second attack wasn't suprise as Nuova knew it and he saved Goku from the second one while dying so that means Syn ap is stronger if not comparable to Nuova ap

 

[My_area]

So basically my suggestion is to keep SSJ4 Goku without Dragon fist as Atleast 3B and keep limit breaker SSJ4 as 3A as he overpowered Syn Shenron who backscales from Omega being 40 times 3A and better justification to be added explaining why Syn Shenron and anyone comparable to him being 3A and if possible also provide a link for 40 times baseline universal in the profile

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody politely ask all of the staff members who commented above to help us out here again via their message walls please?

 

[Therefir]

I agree with @My area, characters at ssj4 Goku level should be "At least 3-B".

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the evaluation.

What should the justifications for their statistics say?

 

[My_area]

Ok before moving on I need to clarify that reason SSJ4 pre limit breaking character are Atleast 3B because they are so high into 3B and are close to baseline boundaries of 3A?

I dont mind Syn Shenron being 3A because of backscaling but however if we cant backscale then Syn Shenron and everyone comparable to SSJ4 Goku pre or post limit breaking to be Atleast 3B and only Nuova post amped, Dragon fist he used against Omega,Spirit bomb,Omega and Gogeta to remain as 3A

While its rough sketch but for Syn Shenron it could be

Atleast 3B(Easily stomped a weakened SSJ4 Goku,Described by Goku as stronger than all the oppoents they faced before which puts him above Super 17 and Nuova Shenron)

While SSJ4 Goku would be

Atleast 3B(Stronger than Baby saga version of SSJ4,Fought on par with Nuova Shenron) Atleast 3B with limit breaking SSJ4( Much stronger than before,stomped Syn Shenron)

And I think Vegeta and Super 17 as well needs to be downgraded to Atleast 3B if SSJ4 Goku and Syn is being downgraded to Atleast 3B

For Vegeta it can be

Atleast 3B( Comparable with SSJ4 Goku)

For Super 17 it can be

Atleast 3B( Absorbed 10 times Kamehameha from Goku,Stomped SSJ4 Goku and required Goku to use dragon fist in order to defeat him)

Keep in note I dont think Dragon fist which he used against Super 17 was 3A only the dragon fist he uses with 10 times Kamehameha with post limit breaking SSJ4 Goku is 3A because it pierced through Omega Shenron body

So the dragon fist he used against Omega Shenron is much stronger than one he used against Super 17 and Eis so hence Dragon fist is only 3A when he used it against Omega Shenron

Though explanations are very rough and can be easily better worded I would like to know what you guys think about it

 

[Jo-Smooth]

3-B+ can't be used even if they're on the deeper end of 3-B without some numerical value right?

 

[Firestorm808]

From current calcs, Omega Shenron is about 40x base universal.

Omega = 10-20x Syn > Ultra SSJ4 = at least 2x syn = 3A

SSJ4 10x Kamehameha is likely 3A

SSJ4 is at least 3B+, possibly 3A

 

[My_area]

Thats true there is some numerical value for 3B+ but I am not sure about which value is used for Atleast 3B but isn't 3B+ higher than atleast 3B?

 

[My_area]

So are we using backscaling from Omega?

If yes then Syn and anyone comparable to him would be 4 times 3A because Omega who is 10 times stronger than Syn is 40 times 3A if not then Syn and others who are comparable to him are Atleast 3B

 

[Jo-Smooth]

3-B+ would be over halfway between baseline and the highest end of 3-B if I I read the explanation right

 

[Firestorm808]

The gap between low to high 3B is 10^23

 

[Firestorm808]

Backscaling from 40x 3A would be at least 3B+

If we were to scale from Heaven = OBU, Omega would be 1266x 3A.

 

[Jo-Smooth]

It would make sense for them to be on the higher end of 3-B rather than the lower end. GT was 3-B since the beginning of the series, and then towards the end, them, or specifically Goku and Vegeta going from 3-B+ to 3-A makes more sense than them jumping from under halfway into 3-B to 3-A, though it's harder to prove. Is there any way to determine how far inot 3-B GT is at the start?

 

[Antvasima]

We need to stop arguing and get something done here. Somebody should ask all of the staff members who commented above to respond here again.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think My Area and Therefir are being reasonable.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks. We should probably go with their solution then.

 

[LordWhis]

So are we using backscaling from Omega?

If yes then Syn and anyone comparable to him would be 4 times 3A because Omega who is 10 times stronger than Syn is 40 times 3A if not then Syn and others who are comparable to him are Atleast 3B

I don't think anyone from baby vegeta onwards is less than 1/4 of Syn

 

[Antvasima]

Is somebody experienced willing to apply Therefir's and My Area's solution?

 

[My_area]

So are we using backscaling from Omega?

If yes then Syn and anyone comparable to him would be 4 times 3A because Omega who is 10 times stronger than Syn is 40 times 3A if not then Syn and others who are comparable to him are Atleast 3B

I don't think anyone from baby vegeta onwards is less than 1/4 of Syn

Normally they aren't 1/4 times weaker but basically not backscaling from Omega seems like the case here hence downgrade to atleast 3B

 

[JohnCenaNation]

Can someone please tell me why is base Goku's Dragon Fist is rated as Universal level just for being able to hurt Super 17? Android 18 outright admitted that Android 17 subconsciously was suppressing Super 17's defense just so Goku could hurt him. If Syn Shenron is gonna get downgraded from Universal level, then so should Super 17, because Syn Shenron was stated to be more powerful than any opponent Goku has ever faced against up till now.

 

[My_area]

In my knowledge both are going to get downgraded as well as Dragon fist against Super 17 to Atleast 3B

We are just waiting for someone experienced who is willingly to perform edits based on Thefir's and my solution as I am not experienced in editing so I cant do much

 

[Firestorm808]

Just to recap the agreed revision and scaling:

3-A: SSJ4 Gogeta, Dragon Hammer, Omega, Ultra SSJ4, Syn

3-B+: Amped Nuova, 10x Kamehameha, Dragon Fist, SSJ4 Goku, Other Comparable Characters.

The difference between high and low 3-B is 10^23x.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Firestorm808/Dragon_Ball_Universe_Size

The blast radius of destroying the Kaioshin real from Earth creates a destruction volume at least 40x Observable Universe.

Omega = 10 to 20x Syn = at least 40x Observable Universe = 3-A

Syn = 4x to 2x Observable Universe = 3-A

Syn > 10x Kamehameha > SSJ4 Goku = At most .4x to .2x Observable Universe = 3-B+

 

[Antvasima]

If necessary, you can ask Therefir to comment here again via his message wall.

 

[Jo-Smooth]

Super 17 defenses were down as in Absorbtion Barrier leaves him open to attacks. It only blocks Ki blasts and not physical attacks. His durability didn't go down at all. And Dragon Fist is so potent that Base Goku was able to one shot someone who was stronger than his SSJ4 form and was continually getting stronger from 18's blasts (though 18 isn't strong at all compared to them to be fair.). We see that Super 17's physical stats amp up as he absorbs energy too. Dragon Fist being able to cleanly one shot a 3-B+ character sounds like its 3-A scale-able to me considering 3-B+ is already over halfway between baseline 3-B and 3-A

 

[My_area]

Would warrant 3B+ possibly 3A as giving it solid 3A looks bit shaky and not solid enough reason to be one but I am fine with Atleast 3B

 

[Jo-Smooth]

The 7.5x for a one shot thing isn't used with scaling right?

 

[JohnCenaNation]

Super 17 defenses were down as in Absorbtion Barrier leaves him open to attacks. It only blocks Ki blasts and not physical attacks. His durability didn't go down at all. And Dragon Fist is so potent that Base Goku was able to one shot someone who was stronger than his SSJ4 form and was continually getting stronger from 18's blasts (though 18 isn't strong at all compared to them to be fair.). We see that Super 17's physical stats amp up as he absorbs energy too. Dragon Fist being able to cleanly one shot a 3-B+ character sounds like its 3-A scale-able to me considering 3-B+ is already over halfway between baseline 3-B and 3-A

So would that Dragon Fist thingy be an outlier?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

No, it's a specific attack that's above his average attack potency. Outlier is the wrong choice of words.

 

[JohnCenaNation]

No, it's a specific attack that's above his average attack potency. Outlier is the wrong choice of words.

Base Goku being able to hurt an opponent far stronger than him in his Super Saiyan 4 is no different from Black Panther being able to restrain Silver Surfer with an armlock, because the power gap between base Goku and Super 17 > the power gap between Black Panther and Silver Surfer.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Some characters have specific techniques that are much stronger than their main attacks; which Dragon Fist qualifies. Black Panthar's armlock does not qualify as it's just PIS and it's not like Armlock constantly one-shots everyone weaker than Silver Surfer. Dragon Fist has been portrayed as overkill practically every time it's used. Even against opponents significantly stronger than Goku.

 

[My_area]

Yeah dragon fist whenever it appeared managed to one shot a much stronger opponent with exception of Eis

Like SSJ3 Goku dragon fist one shot Hirudegan

Base Goku dragon fist one shot Super 17

SSJ4 Goku limit broken dragon fist one shot Omega Shenron

 

[My_area]

The 7.5x for a one shot thing isn't used with scaling right?

I dont think so but wasn't one shot usually used as 2 times multiplier?

 

[Antvasima]

Is somebody experienced willing to apply Therefir's and My Area's solution?

Would you be willing to handle this Medeus?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I will take care of them.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I have made the edits.

 

[My_area]

Thank you