3A Syn Shenron makes no sense

[Therefir]

I have no problem with Syn Shenron being At least 3-B+ because he was stated to be 10 times weaker than Omega Shenron, perhaps even more. So if we are lowballing it, that rating would make sense.

I think this should work.

 

[Therefir]

So what do we do with ssj4 Goku? His fourth key states that he kept up with Syn Shenron only after breaking his limits (which I suppose is when he was recharged) but LordWhis says that this is just a non-tired ssj4 Goku.

Which honestly doesn't make sense considering that Syn Shenron should be superior to Nuova Shenron, who is equal to a normal ssj4 Goku.

If we follow his proposal, it would make ssj4 Goku = Nuova Shenron >> Syn Shenron.

I think this should prove that a charged ssj4 Goku is actually much stronger than he normally is.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Nouva Shenron was kind of amplified from being inside Goku's body; the first time he fought Syn, he was ones hotted by him. But he was able to distract him and land some good hits when resurrected by Goku. But I should not that he was using a tactic of pretending to be an ally of Syn Shenron, but then at a good timing, he turned around and surprised attacked Syn. So, I wouldn't call SS4 Goku or Nouva quite on par with Syn Shenron. But I do agree that Syn could get downgraded to 3-B or 3-B+.

It's also noted, that SS4 Goku Vs Nuova, the difference was Goku has the power while Nuova has the speed.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

Would Goku still be 3-A since he hurt Omega?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

His Dragon Fist would still be 3-A, that's kind of the point is Dragon Fist allows Goku to harm characters much stronger than he is.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[LordWhis]

So what do we do with ssj4 Goku? His fourth key states that he kept up with Syn Shenron only after breaking his limits (which I suppose is when he was recharged) but LordWhis says that this is just a non-tired ssj4 Goku.

Which honestly doesn't make sense considering that Syn Shenron should be superior to Nuova Shenron, who is equal to a normal ssj4 Goku.

If we follow his proposal, it would make ssj4 Goku = Nuova Shenron >> Syn Shenron.

I think this should prove that a charged ssj4 Goku is actually much stronger than he normally is.

Why does Syn have to be the stronger than Nuova ? By feats Nuova has him beat. And furthermore Nuova as others have pointed out is a speedster-type character. I know Syn claimed to be the strongest dragon but so did Rage. Furthermore, Nuova was created by a noble wish and he represents the 4 star ball so him being the strongest dragon makes sense.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I dont think that's resistance, no. As far as I remember the weakness of the Dragon Balls still apply to the Nameless Namek Dragon Balls. Goku is just becoming so powerful that the effect of the wish has no effect on him until he depowers.

I guess you could say "but wouldn't that just undue the wish?" but GT eas just hella funky.

 

[My_area]

Huh didn't Syn overpower a non powered up SSJ4 Goku and the one who trashs Syn Shenron was SSJ4 Goku powered up by his friends and not pre powered up SSJ4 Goku?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

By LordWhis' word, he's not simply powering up but instead just regaining all his power or something.

Checking the episodes for confirmation would help a lot. Unless anyone has seen this stuff recently, is totally likely little details slipped away.

 

[Antvasima]

So is it acceptable if we rate Syn Shenro as "Multi-Galaxy level+" or "At least Multi-Galaxy level"? Super 17 is "Likely 3-A".

 

[LordWhis]

So is it acceptable if we rate Syn Shenro as "Multi-Galaxy level+" or "At least Multi-Galaxy level"? Super 17 is "Likely 3-A".

I support this.

 

[My_area]

If I remember correctly SSJ4 Goku was standard SSJ4 Goku which got wrecked and trashed around by Syn Shenron so then Goku powered up by his friends which fandom refers to Ultra SSJ4 or something like that which then even blind fought on par with Syn Shenron and overpowered him

 

[My_area]

So is it acceptable if we rate Syn Shenro as "Multi-Galaxy level+" or "At least Multi-Galaxy level"? Super 17 is "Likely 3-A".

Why rate Super 17 as Likely 3A?

 

[Antvasima]

He is already rated as Likely 3-A.

 

[My_area]

So I think Super 17 should be downgraded to Multi Galaxy level or Atleast Multi Galaxy level

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Better rate them to 3-B+

 

[Antvasima]

What do you think Calaca, Medeus, and Therefir?

 

[LordWhis]

Super 17 who stomped SSJ4 Goku being downgraded is stupid.

 

[The_Calaca]

It has been a really long time since I watched GT so I can't say for sure for my memory is really bad about it.

I only remember that FP SSJ4 Goku stomped Syn, but he was using the power from his friends to gain the upper hand.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, SSJ4 Goku isn't really that far above Syn Shenron, and borrowing energy from allies to get a sky rocket in power is pretty common in the Toei verse; it's similar to Goku Vs Broly in the first Broly movie. As for Super 17, he was mostly powerful due to his energy absorption ability in which his weakness was his inability to absorb energy from two fighters at once. I don't mind him being downgraded to At least 3-B.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I am fine with what Medeus and Calaca decide that we should do here.

 

[LordWhis]

Goku's power was stated to be halved by Eis slashing his face. So he was at max 50% power when Syn 'beat' him and that's assuming he was at full strength before that and wasn't further weakened later on, both of which are very unlikely.

Even if Goku was amped by the recharging, backscaling a character from a roflstomp is just dumb.

@darkdragon: But then shouldn't Super 17 at his strongest be 3A ?

Syn did beat Majuub so I'm fine with him being 3b or even at least 3b scaling from that.

Also, I can confirm Dragon ball gt is exceedingly boring.

 

[LordWhis]

And to all the people saying Syn HAS to be stronger than 17 coz of shonen logic-

That's not how we do scaling on this wiki

Always wanted to say that dialogue !

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Then should the downgrade be done?

 

[LordWhis]

I'd recommend At Least 3B- Vastly superior to Majuub, defeated a weakened SSJ4 Goku.

I won't argue with people who want him to be plain 3B tho.

 

[Antvasima]

I am fine with "At least 3-B".

Which other DBGT profiles would need to be updated for the sake of consistency?

 

[LordWhis]

I think Goku's profile may need slight tweaks.

 

[My_area]

Was there any statement stating his power was halfed? Because even his 10 times Kamehameha wasn't able to give a single scrach to Syn Shenron

I have doubts over SSJ4 Goku being 3A

 

[LordWhis]

It was flat out stated by Eis that his power was halved.

I am fine with Gogeta, Omega and Nuova being the only 3As in the verse, maybe along with people amped by techniques like Super 17's absorption and Goku's dragon fist and universal spirit bomb.

 

[My_area]

Its strange for his power to be halfed by a attack which cut his eyes abd didn't give him that much damage

Beside Syn Shenron is stronger anyway he took out 10 times Kamehameha without a scrach

 

[ByAsura]

It was cold-based attack, that's why Nuova tried to remedy it with medicine and his eyes weren't damaged in the slightest. It's perfectly reasonable for it to have cut Goku's power in two, especially since this is fiction. Half might be english only, I'll check.

Edit: According to Eis, Goku's power was cut in half even in the original Japanese. Also Goku actually does say he needs more than his full power since the 10x Kamehameha didn't work after Goten, Gohan, etc, amp him to his regular level.

@LordWhis Syn is definitely the strongest. Narration from the episode proceding these images only makes it more clear.

 

[LordWhis]

Perhaps regular ssj4 Goku would have been enough to beat him just with more difficulty. I still say we know too little about Syn to scale him extremely high.

He beat a weakened character and got roflstomped. Neither of those tell us anything about his power.

 

[ByAsura]

According to himself and everyone around him, Goku was amped well beyond his physical limits to the point where they were concerned if his body could handle it. This probably means that Goku was amped beyond his regular level of power, not just the half power state that he used against Syn.

The narration says on 3 occasions (one of which isn't in the gallery) that Syn's stronger than the other dragons and defeated Nuova with extreme ease. This tells us that he's above all the dragons.

 

[Antvasima]

@ByAsura

Thank you for the information. What would you suggest as a solution here?

 

[My_area]

Even if his power was cut in half his 10 times Kamehameha didn't put a single scrach on Syn Shenron and he basically defeated him with ease with no problem at all so I doubt even full power SSJ4 Goku would even able to fight in par with Syn let alone stomp and the amp from friends which put Goku well beyond his limits was needed for SSJ4 Goku to actually stomp Syn Shenron

 

[ByAsura]

@Ant I don't know, I was just providing some scans. However, one thing I'd like to say is that I disagree with rating anyone as Multi-Galaxy level+, since that's a specific rating that warrants a calc.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Such a rating from be downscaling from Omega Shenron, his statement about being 10 times stronger if not more than Syn Shenron, and a calc about the size of the DB universe.

If a downgrade where to happen, which with this proof seems to no longer be the case because that dialogue couldn't be more clear cut, backscaling them to Multi-Galaxy+ would actually be doable without a calc.

 

[ByAsura]

The calc is 40x baseline, at a minimum, so backscaling to + wouldn't work.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Except it would, because Syn would be 4 above baseline. + is applicable when the AP is calculated to recide above the mean value between low end and high end. Goku could be a few hundred thousand times below Syn, which would be absurd and dumb, and he would still be +.

3-B is absurdly immense, if a difference of 8.593x1068 to 2.825x1092 between low end and high end didn't make it obvious enough.