3A Syn Shenron makes no sense

[ByAsura]

What I'm saying is you'd need to prove Goku and Super 17 are more than 4 times weaker than Syn to get a + rating. You just can't do that because they never imply anything of the sort in the series.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Special ki blasts like Kamehameha are way more powerful than Goku's normal attacks. 10x Kamehameha, if the name didn't make it obvious, is many times more potent than a normal Kamehameha. Syn wasn't even scratched after taking one to the face while not even really trying to defend.

There's no way that that is less than a 4x difference.

 

[ByAsura]

Goku was at half power when he launched that attack. Sure, Syn is more powerful than regular Goku, but he was absolutely stomped by extra power given by Gohan, Goten and Trunks. Also, everything you just said, aside from the 10x kamehameha being more powerful than regular attacks and Syn tanking it, is head canon.

We're never told what the 10x Kamehameha, and Super 17 manages to absorb it but doesn't tear Goku to pieces despite logically being even more powerful. If it was literally 10 times stronger than a regular kamehameha, Goku wouldn't even be Multi-Galaxy level+, just Multi-Galaxy level, and he probably would have killed Baby in one hit.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

That's... not head canon, what do you even mean? We literally see it in the Saiyan Saga, Goku's power level more than doubles the moment Goku does a Kamehameha. Unless you mean 10x times being many times stronger, which I don't see how it is head canon either.

And I never said literally 10 times, I just said many times. Goku already boosted his power a bit more than twice by Raditz invasion, super kamehameha is stronger, and so is 10x times Kamehameha.

Strongest Form 2 Baby could hurt SSJ4 despite being outclassed, so I don't see why not getting very hurt by Goku matters. Also, + would only be for his limit broken form that defeated Syn if a downgrade was to actually happen. In this hypothetical scenario, even if we assumed more than 10 times instead of 10 times stronger being the difference between Syn and Omega, there is literally no way both him and Goku are billions of times weaker than Omega to justify a lack of +.

 

[ByAsura]

No, Raditz explains that the technique was done by concentrating all his energy into that blast, it's not a regular kamehameha that Goku's equals can withstand with impunity, like the one that Cell deflected with one hand. It is head canon, watch the fight with Goku and Super 17 where he absorbs the attack and takes forever to kill Goku, also the 10x Kamehameha is used more than a regular kamehameha as Super Saiyan 4.

Goku was clearly holding back, as he's physically outclassed in this fight but proceeds to tank his Death Ball right after. Let's see, Nappa cuts off Tien's arm, Vegeta nearly kills Goku with Kaioken x2, etc.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

However it is achieved matters little, as the point is that the AP of Kamehameha and similar techniques is much higher than normal attacks or ki blasts. Final Flash is the very same, considering Cell moved out of the way some, Vegeta didn't even aim fully at him to not destroy the earth, and he still ripped a chunk off despite being nothing to Cell at that point. And Super 17 taking forever can more easily be faulted on the plot, special techniques like Kamehameha being stronger than normal attacks is so common and prevalent it is dumb to dismiss it.

Unless we decide to think he was holding back immensely, my point stands though. And I fail to see what is the point of your examples or what is supposed to prove at all. Even with Kaio-ken x2 Goku was merely comparable, and unlike him Vegeta didn't need to **** up his body to keep his power at that level.

Ugh, whatever. The issue has been resolved and no downgrade is happening. I have literally no clue what are you arguing anymore or why, so I quit.

 

[ByAsura]

An attack that took forever to charge, just like the Kamehameha that Goku used to blow the top half of Cell's body off or the one he used against Raditz. Goku consistently doesn't kill or his enemies with the x10 kamehameha, even Syn Shenron withstood one after Goku completely outclassed him.

He was clearly holding back quite a bit if he's being physically outclassed, so your point doesn't stand at all. Goku wasn't comparable, he was outclassed by a suppressed Vegeta, he says so himself. Since you fail to understand my point, here's what I'm getting at with those examples: small differences in power are enough for a one shot.

Quit being so condescending just because you don't agree.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I am not being condescending, I literally don't understand what you are arguing for and why. Calm the hell down instead.

That sounds more likely to be down to PIS, considering Goku tends to heavily injure whenever he uses and hits with his stronger techniques unless he's completely outdone. I am not using power levels literally, just as proof that these techniques do punch way higher than their normal blows.

Except it doesn't. Goku is clearly above him easily, but he would need to be holding back so much he might as well be playing around if normal attacks hurt him but then Death Ball doesn't leave a scratch when he gets serious. Comparable while using Kaio-ken. Comparable just means you are in the same ballpark, even if you are weaker, and the fact Vegeta could get pushed around and damaged means Goku was certainly there. Actually try and even explain your point then, instead of saying stuff without context? And... not really. Goku was using a technique that wrecks his body and the difference is massive when he doesn't use it. And if we decided to use power levels as an accurate metric (which they have proven not to be), Nappa is Tien's superior twice over and used a chopping attack. There's a reason 9-B bullets can pierce 9-A trees.

And again, we are arguing for literally nothing and I am not sure for what point. So again, I quit. Feel free to continue if you want.

 

[ByAsura]

Ok, it just sounded condescending when you said it, but if that wasn't your intention then fine. I'm generally calm here, you're the one who's saying "Ugh, whatever" and "Calm the hell down".

Sorry if I misinterpret your point, but this is somewhat difficult to understand because of the way it's written. No offense. Goku explains that he somewhat loses his ability to reason in Super Saiyan 4, even if that was somewhat of a lie, so it's entirely possible he held back, and he was taunting Baby throughout the entire fight.

Vegeta was, again, holding back. When he didn't, this happened. That's why I explained the context to you after you asked, I'm not a mind reader. Kaioken x3 wrecks Goku's body at that time. Nappa's strike wasn't a chopping attack, it was a punch in the anime.

Sure, I'll continue. We're arguing for Multi-Galaxy level+ or not.

 

[Antvasima]

Just a note that Multi-Galaxy level+ is a very specific rating that means being able to destroy half or more of the observable universe in a single attack.

 

[ByAsura]

That's exactly why I'm against it.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that you seem to make sense.

What scaling would you suggest?

 

[ByAsura]

I'm not sure.

 

[My_area]

Not sure whats being argued here but even if SSJ4 Goku power is halfed his 10 times kamehameha would still be 5 times stronger than regular SSJ4 Goku power and even then it didn't even scrach Syn Shenron

 

[Jo-Smooth]

Sorry if I missed something, but how does backscaling 10x weaker than 40x baseline.....meaning 4x baseline, = less than 3-B+?

 

[Therefir]

I think Syn Shenron should be still 3-A, even if we assume he was 20 times weaker than Omega Shenron (which is an absolutely high-end considering the statement) he would be still 2x baseline 3-A.

If the kamehameha that ssj4 Goku used against Syn was actually 5 times stronger than himself at full power, he should probably be just 3-B. The attack did nothing to Syn, and even if it had hurt him, ssj4 Goku would still be 0.4x baseline 3-A at most (assuming Syn is 2x baseline 3-A), which is simply 3-B.

 

[Antvasima]

Therefir makes a good point.

 

[ByAsura]

The 10x kamehameha, despite the name, isn't 10x stronger than a regular kamehameha.

 

[LordWhis]

10x kamehameha isn't a 10x power multiplier.

 

[My_area]

So 10 times Kamehameha is just stronger version of Kamehameha not times 10 kamehameha?

 

[Firestorm808]

It's not 10x stronger than a regular Kamehameha?

 

[Akreious]

Why is 10x Kamehameha not 10x stronger than Kamehameha...? Is there a source for this or what because Goku is pretty simple with his naming schemes and Goku pretty much never bluffs.

 

[LordWhis]

Characters who scale to Goku can tank it. They have matched it with their beams.

Also we don't know Goku was at half power, his power was halved by Eis yes but he suffered more damage before and after which means he was probably at less than 50%.

 

[Firestorm808]

I'm gonna try and upload all the fights to youtube so we can be on the same page.

 

[Akreious]

Characters who scale to Goku can tank it. They have matched it with their beams.
Also we don't know Goku was at half power, his power was halved by Eis yes but he suffered more damage before and after which means he was probably at less than 50%.

Kamehameha and similar attacks has been shown to multiply character's power levels/potency since forever. I'm not sure why characters who scale to Goku tanking it or matching it suddenly means it's not 10x?

 

[LordWhis]

So you're proposing that all 3B characters be 3A with their beam attacks ?

 

[ByAsura]

Because characters can harm each other with both energy blasts and punches. Also, Syn Shenron not only tanked a weakened Goku's x10 kamehameha, he tanked one from the same amped Goku that absolutely outclassed him.

 

[Jo-Smooth]

So you're proposing that all 3B characters be 3A with their beam attacks ?

Considering DBGT has 3-B's are on the higher end of 3-B and Goku's Kamehameha was able to affect Omega right before the Dragon Fist hit......

 

[Akreious]

Basically yeah, what the replies have been saying. They're already stupidly high into 3-B already and all things considered, it would take relatively little to bump them to 3-A.

 

[My_area]

Uh weaker characters in DB doesn't die against stronger character attacks doesn't make the attacks weaker thats just how DB works right?

Like Omega surviving Gogeta big bang kamehameha,Goku surviving Syn Shenron blast which is stronger than 10 times Kamehameha etc

I doubt Goku powered down even further from 50% because he was still able to punch Syn when catching him offguard

 

[ByAsura]

I wasn't talking about 50% Goku, I was talking about when he got amped by Goten, Gohan and Trunks.

 

[Antvasima]

@All staff members who have responded above

I would appreciate help with deciding what we should do here.

 

[My_area]

I wasn't talking about 50% Goku, I was talking about when he got amped by Goten, Gohan and Trunks.

Oh I was responding to Lord Whis with that comment

 

[ByAsura]

Ok. Sorry.

 

[LordWhis]

I doubt Goku powered down even further from 50% because he was still able to punch Syn when catching him offguard

That doesn't mean anything since we have no idea how strong Syn is in the first place.

 

[My_area]

I doubt Goku powered down even further from 50% because he was still able to punch Syn when catching him offguard

That doesn't mean anything since we have no idea how strong Syn is in the first place.

Syn Shenron is strong enough to damage Nuova Shenron and even if you say he was off guarded Nuova dies by Syn Shenron blast the 2nd time when he protects Goku from this then he proceeds to easily overpower a 50% powered SSJ4 Goku and takes 10 times Kamehameha a attack far beyond even from his standard Kamehameha and leaves not a single scratch over Syn Shenron body and overpowers him easily

ByAsura comment just proves my point that Goku states Syn Shenron as opponent at different league compared to any other opponent he ever fought before and even regards that 10 times kamehameha had no effect over Syn Shenron which didn't happen with any enemy before that which is proof that Syn Shenron> All opponents Goku fought before including Nuova which is similar statement which we use to say that Jiren>Infinite Zamasu so case is same here

So basically there is nothing disproving SSJ4 Goku being stronger than Syn Shenron at full health

 

[Firestorm808]

To my understanding:

Previous Shadow Dragons < Shell Nuova = Base Goku < True Nuova < SSJ4 Goku < SSJ4 Goku 10x Kamehameha < Syn < Full Power Ultra SSJ4 Goku < Omega < SSJ4 Gogeta

Stated by Omega: SSJ4 Goku + SSJ4 Vegeta < Negative Amped Nuova

 

[ByAsura]

I agree.

 

[LordWhis]

Honestly Nuova is a speedster with heat hax, I'm not too sure about his AP but still Syn's attack was a surprise attack- do you think random Frieza crony with a laser ring deserves 3A ?

There's also the problem of Amped Nuova who is definitely above full power ssj4 Goku, perhaps around Omega's level.

 

[ByAsura]

The first attack is a surprise, but the second attack isn't. The narrator also says this is quite an impressive feat, and Syn is stated to be leagues above all the dragons on several occasions.