2B vs Raiden: Metal Gear Rising vs Nier Automata REMAKE

[Comiphorous]

welp, grace is over, which means raiden can keep his win on his page.

 

[FintanMajora]

I hope yall don't mind me chiming in, but imma defend 2B as much as possible for a fair chance cause she means a lot to me. I also agree with Nier:Automata being one of the greatest games in existence and I will defend that point till the end.

Seems like this is reliant on arsenal and haxes since the rest is equalized, otherwise 2B stomps .

Anyways the quantum argument is indeed an issue, 2B resists a better version of a quantum function, but she doesn't resist the specific one Raiden has, resisting a better one doest mean resisting the lesser ones, it's just in concept better but she doesn't conceptually resist it. Regardless both 2B and Raiden can negate durability via the sexy red katana and 2B's weapons and other forms of attacks using Maso. To defend the "Maso bypassing defenses" argument, the argument I saw against is "it can literally mean anything", issue is not exactly, but also does it matter? The examples given all bypass durability one way or another, in this case the defense systems designed to take damage until it wears out is completely negated, meaning no matter how bulky you make yourself, you are getting hit. Although it did make me wanna test a theory, that being will the P and M shields work against Emil. Regardless both gave access to durability neg, but an argument I haven't seen yet is that 2B has more options for that, Raiden doesn't.

The EMP argument sadly only works cause of speed Equalized. But there is one gripe I have about this. Speed Equalized should only apply to the characters being generally fast meaning movement speed and combat speed, but no realistic way should it affect their reaction speed and attack speed that is outside of their general movement, such as a laser. It's dumb to lower the speed of a laser, bullets, missiles, etc. Meaning 2B's high reaction speed should be able to keep up and even allow her to maneuver over Raidens shit. Beside speed equalize should not amp speed cause that would not make sense. Granted I'm not 100% sure how this rule exactly works since I'm working with a different function so educate me on the version you use. Besides 2B can defend herself from EMPs with some shields and if this speed thing in thinking about is correct, should be able to react to it.

Okay, what answer does 2B now have to the HF Muramasa, and to the speed boosts of Ripper Mode and Blade M

To answer this, I already mentioned she can't counter the quantum stuff, but neither can Raiden counter 2B's durability Negation. As for Ripper Mode and Blade M, i need an understanding on how fast it is exactly because all i know is 2Bs time slow can slow down time 8-10x the speed. 2Bs time slow should help alot here, as for the stat amps, I'm sure 2B has chips to boost her own stats too. 2B also can passively dodge incoming attacks without her actively needing to think about dodging via Auto-Dodge which is indeed viable. So Raiden is gonna have to really push hard to even land a hit. There is also a chip called Anti-Chain but I'll get to that in a later point.

An argument I've seen is the abstact existence not working because of this reply.

Body doesn't come back in combat applicable time

Ok what exactly is the rule for this? I've seen that they have to come back at minimum in a day or at max a week, 2B can come back before that 24 hour mark since flight back to earth doesn't take long at all, she can hop hack any time. I do believe she come back in the applicable time.

Does Raiden have anything to deal with a flight unit from a very longrange? If not that would be a serious struggle for him.

with a 50% chance of it happening, with another 50% chance of them being sliced in half with nothing happening.

I also wanna point this out, Damage Reflection isn't the only one, there is damage absorption, reset, counter, and multiple other chips that while under the pressure of probability, can still help to negate or flat out push back damage she doesn't have to worry about. The probability stacks and while there is a chance Raiden can get lucky, I prefer to look at all the possible chances and determine who gets it via more chances.

Ok imma conclude this post cause I refuse to read the rest of this thread, dyslexia is a bitch after all. I'm gonna list everything 2B has that can be a huge issue for Raiden:

•Flight Unit alone granting a giagantic range buff and distance buff, if not alot of the Pods and Pod Programs do that too along with some chips like Shockwave.

•Maso negating durability and she has plenty of options for that

•Massive weapon Arsenal advantage, some possessing little buffs Raiden may be vulnerable too

•Anti-Chain chip granting invulnerability for a short time but it's still extremely valuable

•Far better healing options through chips, weapons, Pods, etc.

•Reset chip, damage absorption, reset, Damage Reflection. P and M shield, and plenty more defensive chips increasing longevity. Vengeance can do something similar, 50% chance to dealt back 200% of the damage taken which may be helpful.

•Instinctive Reaction via Auto-Dodge

•Her abstact existence indeed being viable so she can come back unless Raiden somehow destorys the YoRHa Network

•2B golds Temporal and Spatial control that can match or even surpass Raiden via some chips and Pod Programs allowing it.

•2B's time haxes can help keep her pace efficient

•Has her own stat amps too

•Pod Programs like Volt, Gravity, Slow Decoy, can slow Raiden down greatly.

I would wanna argue the Multiple-World Divergence as a point but 2B can't really use it herseld.except exist as a singularity, maybe it's possible to argue one 2B dying doesn't mean the rest do but I really don't think that is applicable, just a fun thing to note. That's all for now though, hopefully we can keep up the discussion.

 

[Chariot190]

The EMP argument sadly only works cause of speed Equalized. But there is one gripe I have about this. Speed Equalized should only apply to the characters being generally fast meaning movement speed and combat speed, but no realistic way should it affect their reaction speed and attack speed that is outside of their general movement, such as a laser.

Well it does, characters get equalized in reactions too. And it effects attack speed too, but to a degree, if for example, a character is mach 1 and had a mach 5 attack, an dthey got equalized down to superhuman, the mach 5 attack would be lowered as well, but only to the extent that it keeps the same speed discrepancy, meaning it'd be 5x superhuman.
This is to generally avoid things like gunslingers having tehir guns and shit be made completely useless.

 

[Chariot190]

Also if we're just listing off a character's whole arsenal, it's a tad important to note that Raiden has a **** ton beyond just the HF blade, it's just never brought up, but he has a multitude of weapons with said HF hax as welql, he also has things like guns, railguns, magnetism weaponry, infinite ammunition, healing items that can heal him in full for the most part, items that enable infinite amping without cooldown, homing attacks that auto target, various upgrades of his own, Jam Grenades, EMP Grenades, special grenades designed to penetrate and take out cyborgs, status effect inducement with various weapons (via magnetic means, so 2B is vulnerable to this), Anti-Flight weaponry like the Monsoon's stuff and rockets, (given Raiden fights ******* with flight all the time, it's only obvious he'd have counters to this), and so on.

Also a handful of the stuff you mentioned, while stuff she has, isn't exactly helpful against him. like instinctive reaction, half the dudes Raiden fights have that, he's innately skilled enough to essentially ignore that, healing items? Don't mean much if he just needs one hit to win and has a handful of AOE incap moves, time slow? AOE attacks and Raiden's own ludicrous amp mitigate that especially as he can enter that state permanently with wigs, flight? Well he has actual anti-air weapons so..
I could go on, a few of that could be an issue, but does it really matter, when all he needs to do is toss out a few grenades or use magnetism and then just ohko.

 

[Random-Helper323]

2B has a X10 speed amp, and Blade Mode and Ripper Mode are X10 and X7 respectively. So with both active Raiden will have the speed advantage.

 

[Shmooply]

Raiden has better child-bearing hips FRA.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Raiden has better child-bearing hips FRA.

Is that before or after he activates Blade Mode and slashes her and her hips into who knows how many pieces with his high frequency blade?

I'm honestly leaning more towards Raiden here. Better speed boosts, HF blade is devastating, and he has other weapons as well.

 

[Chariot190]

Fyi for future reference, IS the data abstract shit combat applicable? Because I've been given mixed answers, and I don't recall it being applicable when I played the game but I know there's novel shit so?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I've read the novels. The data stuff isn't combat applicable.

 

[FintanMajora]

Well it does, characters get equalized in reactions too. And it effects attack speed too, but to a degree, if for example, a character is mach 1 and had a mach 5 attack, an dthey got equalized down to superhuman, the mach 5 attack would be lowered as well, but only to the extent that it keeps the same speed discrepancy, meaning it'd be 5x superhuman.
This is to generally avoid things like gunslingers having tehir guns and shit be made completely useless.

Ok so depending on what level the equalization is which should be lower than 2B's highest, Raiden has no counter to 2Bs lasers or any other of her light speed attacls from the pod, your example doesn't apply to her since the attack isn't like a quick burst moving faster than normal, it's a laser and slowing down a laser that scientifically moves at light speed is completely illogical and goes against the very nature of it. Doesn't help every other range attack moves with particle beams so even the bullets and missiles are Relativistic so he is gonna have to keep up

Also if we're just listing off a character's whole arsenal, it's a tad important to note that Raiden has a **** ton beyond just the HF blade, it's just never brought up, but he has a multitude of weapons with said HF hax as welql, he also has things like guns, railguns, magnetism weaponry, infinite ammunition, healing items that can heal him in full for the most part, items that enable infinite amping without cooldown, homing attacks that auto target, various upgrades of his own, Jam Grenades, EMP Grenades, special grenades designed to penetrate and take out cyborgs, status effect inducement with various weapons (via magnetic means, so 2B is vulnerable to this), Anti-Flight weaponry like the Monsoon's stuff and rockets, (given Raiden fights ******* with flight all the time, it's only obvious he'd have counters to this), and so on.

Allow me to break this down for me to understand better. I actually don't recall him having other weapons like HF, imma need dome refs to that. Even if he has guns and rail guns, both characters can dodge weapons like them rather easily, we aren't equalizing them lower than their actual speed after all, but what does matter is the range, and from the wiki page for Raiden, his range is lower so 2B can outrange here. 2B also kinda has something similar to magnetism but it isn't named that, but what 2B is made of isn't specified, it may worked but 2B does have stuff that can help counter it. Infinite ammo they both have so that's equal for both. Both can heal with items but 2B has the advantage of being able to passively heal and with "Offensive Heal" as the name intends heal off damage, plus some other pseudo recovery chips. That infinite amping though I've never heard of, mind elaborating? Both also have homing attacks, upgrades are pretty natural for both, 2B and 9S have dealted with jamming before, and it's something they can tank and shake off so that'll be temporary at best. Now for the EMP, the issue of it being her weakness only comes from Grun, who launched an EMP wave that can nuke countries, so that sort of is above 2B entirely, other enemy EMPs only hurt her but otherwise she isn't super vulnerable to it. Not sure what exactly the cyborg grenades are so I need elaboration there too. 2B's weapons inflict their own effects too, although they aren't 100% the conventional. Also nothing exactly shows 2B is vulnerable to magnetic things unless you just use generalization of Android = Magnetic, thing is she is made out of very unique parts which btw not all machines are magnetic iirc. Ok how effective are these anti-flight weapons and what are their max range? Because I can serious argue if they lack range, they may not even be able to reach 2B. Seems like to me they both have the same to varying degree, but Raiden has stuff that can stall her, but the vise versa applies

2B has a X10 speed amp, and Blade Mode and Ripper Mode are X10 and X7 respectively. So with both active Raiden will have the speed advantage

If he can get close enough for it probably, just that 2B has seriously good range advantages and create openings with them to get in close if she can.

Fyi for future reference, IS the data abstract shit combat applicable? Because I've been given mixed answers, and I don't recall it being applicable when I played the game but I know there's novel shit so?

Only thing I can say here is her data being abstract makes it harder to kill her for good without her being able to come back, raiden would have to kill the source somehow, killing her physicsl body would only stall so.as long as she can come back, which she can in ample time. Like as long as YoRHa and the database exists with her data being there, and as long as her data does indeed exists, she remains entirely. Actually let me ask, how does Raiden do against hacking? While 2B never hacks in game, A2 being the same sort of model as 2B hacked 9S, so it isn't impossible, just not likely.

 

[FintanMajora]

Also a handful of the stuff you mentioned, while stuff she has, isn't exactly helpful against him. like instinctive reaction, half the dudes Raiden fights have that, he's innately skilled enough to essentially ignore that, healing items? Don't mean much if he just needs one hit to win and has a handful of AOE incap moves, time slow? AOE attacks and Raiden's own ludicrous amp mitigate that especially as he can enter that state permanently with wigs, flight? Well he has actual anti-air weapons so..
I could go on, a few of that could be an issue, but does it really matter, when all he needs to do is toss out a few grenades or use magnetism and then just ohko.

Oh almost forgot about this. The insticive reaction is gonna help her avoid attacks just enough, Raiden can probably adapt, although I can potentially argue 2B having the ability to reactively evolve in a fight, although that would be a different discussion I doubt yall don't wanna listen too cause of a certain pal of us being a turn off with the Quantum shit (also the 2B bias hate is impossible to fight against). Also you seem to forget about the anti-chain chip. He really can't "slice her up" cause one hint of damage will grant invincibility for a period of time, where she can dodge out of attacks, and with the Resilience chip she can negate any form of staggering too. So that period of time can indeed be used to heal her. Plus androids can take removed limbs and out them back on their body, nanobots will quickly come to repair in a very short period of time. 2B also has AOE attacks too btw. I already commented on the flight unit thing before.

 

[Chariot190]

I actually don't recall him having other weapons like HF,

Read the profile dude, or play the game.

 

[Chariot190]

Actually read both profiles, it seems like you're arguing magnetic shit doesn't work on her despite the fact it's listed as a weakness.

 

[Kflare63]

those are walls of text I'm not willing to read

 

[Comiphorous]

those are walls of text I'm not willing to read

same. **** that.

 

[FintanMajora]

Read the profile dude, or play the game

1. I'm dyslexic so any long forms of reading will only be really difficult for me or will take forever

2. I would play if I had the time to both play and analyze everything

 

[Chariot190]

I'm dyslexic so any long forms of reading will only be really difficult for me or will take forever

Well, I'm sorry for that, but a good chunk of stuff is on the profiles, and we use said profiles, if something isn't on a profile, or something in turn IS on a profile, we kinda have to adhere to it. Of course, one could always make a CRT to change things, but as it stands.

Well either way, Raiden has a **** ton beyond just a HF Blade, in fact he has several weapons with HF properties, such as the saws for example, and he has a slew of weapons beyond that, with very little limitations in regards to what he can have, or how many he can have, at any given time. If you have trouble reading that's fine, there's no rush, you can take your time doing so, if some parts are hard to understand, point them out as well, we can make an effort to make it less complex to understand in the future.

 

[FintanMajora]

Well either way, Raiden has a **** ton beyond just a HF Blade, in fact he has several weapons with HF properties, such as the saws for example, and he has a slew of weapons beyond that, with very little limitations in regards to what he can have, or how many he can have, at any given time. If you have trouble reading that's fine, there's no rush, you can take your time doing so, if some parts are hard to understand, point them out as well, we can make an effort to make it less complex to understand in the future.

Complexity isn't the issue, I just have a reading disability that's all but thanks for the kindness. Also I really wanna mention EMP being a weakness is false because several enemies have EMP attacks that she tanks, only one instance she can't tank it was from a county wiping EMP, so it being listed as a weakness isn't 100% accurate

 

[Shmooply]

snip

You're gonna have to make a CRT about that. We don't use things that aren't on the profiles of a character in VS threads, so Raiden beating her with EMP grenades is still a valid wincon for him. Though he still has other wincons so it doesn't really matter.

 

[FintanMajora]

You're gonna have to make a CRT about that. We don't use things that aren't on the profiles of a character in VS threads, so Raiden beating her with EMP grenades is still a valid wincon for him. Though he still has other wincons so it doesn't really matter

Possibly I'll make one? Still I wanna be able to argue the wincons for her to still be valid. Although the one I'm most concerned with is raidens range, it's lower than 2Bs so what's stopping her from outranging?

 

[Baken384]

does 2B even outrange in character

 

[Nierre]

yes she does use her range in character, she spams her pods.

She can either stay back and use her pods, or go close combat, or use her pods AND go close combat

 

[Mapl3Sy4up]

London’s oldest killed FRA (Cause his nicknames Jack the Ripper)

 

[FintanMajora]

does 2B even outrange in character

This depends on her enemy, it varies in multiple ways but basically if it's detected that close range would be too risky, then long range would be advised by the POD, this is cause they can analyze the enemy and calculate the character's strength, speed, powers, arsenal, etc. which is done very early usually, just like with Adam and Eve they quickly determined that there are intervals where melee isn't advised and range is needed and vise versa. Androids have used Flight Units against regular sized people before outside the game in seperate lore, so that option is still available to them if 2B needs to call upon her Flight Unit, so yes she can out range in chatacter. The POD usually is good enough range but she can go higher with her other stuff.

 

[TheAngryOrange]

I feel whoever requested this rematch did so prematurely. We were in the middle of some sweeping revisions and I was in the middle of my laser and EMP dodging. Please don't drag me into this. But perhaps someone can answer a curiosity question regarding quantum decoherence.

2B once held a nuke in the palm of her hand when it went off. Mountain level before. Island level now. Even as mountain level, it was more powerful than the Tsar Bomba, the most powerful nuke to date. Nuclear fireball temperatures are measured to exceed that of the sun. And the sun is so hot that things are torn apart on an atomic level. No known matter can exist as solid, liquid, or gas. While 2B died in the blast, her body came out in one piece. Does that solve the quantum decoherence issue?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I feel whoever requested this rematch did so prematurely. We were in the middle of some sweeping revisions and I was in the middle of my laser and EMP dodging. Please don't drag me into this. But perhaps someone can answer a curiosity question regarding quantum decoherence.

2B once held a nuke in the palm of her hand when it went off. Mountain level before. Island level now. Even as mountain level, it was more powerful than the Tsar Bomba, the most powerful nuke to date. Nuclear fireball temperatures are measured to exceed that of the sun. And the sun is so hot that things are torn apart on an atomic level. No known matter can exist as solid, liquid, or gas. While 2B died in the blast, her body came out in one piece. Does that solve the quantum decoherence issue?

Not necessarily, no. It’s about electrons shrinking, instead of matter being torn apart.

 

[FintanMajora]

2B once held a nuke in the palm of her hand when it went off. Mountain level before. Island level now.

Is there a wiki here going over that calc? I've calced that exact feat before for a project I'm working on 2 years back, and I also got between Mountain to Island too, although it depends on what kind of explosion was used, either Pulverization or Vaporization. Also I wanna add that 2B only died cause that "nuke" is her consciousness. A2 took the same blast from another black box and she was in the epicenter and survived.

 

[JirenSupremeSama]

I'm going with Raiden here

Even if low-balling Raiden to baseline High 7-C, and speed here being equalized, Raiden can further raise his speed aug via Blade Mode, now I see a lot of strong opposition whether Raiden in blade mode can actually freely move or not, but I see that not being relevant to the case as either way, the moment 2B goes for him, Raiden can use blade mode in a defensive stance, and it's more favourable to Raiden, his HF Blade can one shot her by cutting her in half

Voting for Raiden

 

[Comiphorous]

I'm going with Raiden here

Even if low-balling Raiden to baseline High 7-C, and speed here being equalized, Raiden can further raise his speed aug via Blade Mode, now I see a lot of strong opposition whether Raiden in blade mode can actually freely move or not, but I see that not being relevant to the case as either way, the moment 2B goes for him, Raiden can use blade mode in a defensive stance, and it's more favourable to Raiden, his HF Blade can one shot her by cutting her in half

Voting for Raiden

this thread ended like. months ago.