2-C Dragon Ball Characters

[Dragomer]

You disagree? That's literally how non-linear time works. Ó▓á_Ó▓á
Why would Otherworld be a completely separate spacetime? It's still affected by time travel, otherwise Goku would be dead regardless if Trunks went back in time or not and have him the medicine.

As i said, i disagree with a lot of stuff related to how we see the 2-C tier and above here.

Because time travel in Dragon Ball is clearly a totaly bug of the systeme that **** EVERYTHING up, even stuff not related to time at all or even their top god, which is why it's a litteraly decree of the gods that you can't use it and also why Whis can't rewind more than 3 minute without everything getting ****** up in the manga.

It even extend to stuff like Xenoverse and Heroes, where Time Travel **** shit up even for realms outside of time and outside the universe / multiverse as well as characters who have shown to be above time.

Hell, it's explained the time machine / time travel creat the timelines, even if Trunks litteraly let Goku die and did nothing, a new timeline was made the moment he touched the button.

Also we already consider that each universe is it's own space time continuum on this wiki and all 12 are also affected by time travel.

 

[Sera_EX]

But there is one critical difference. The twelve universes are referred to as universes while Otherworld is not.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Then they're not outside of time.

 

[Dragomer]

But there is one critical difference. The twelve universes are referred to as universes while Otherworld is not.

The after life is considered completly seperated from the universe, is stated multiple time to be around the size of the universe / even bigger, heaven is even directly stated to be as wide as the universe.

It's clearly treated and shown as it's own thing

You can say it doesn't make it 2 C or anything but the after life is clearly seperated from the universe and has it's own time stuff, that's a fact, saying otherwise contradict clear and official information.

 

[Kepekley23]

• "The Universe; the endless, expansive space wrapped around every celestial body that exists in the Living World. Along with the "Demon Realm," it is a single, large world in the Living World. In the world of Dragon Ball, the universe is located beneath the World Beyond, and it is hermetically sealed by a barrier that is engraved with a strange design."

They aren't dimensions - the universe is sealed within a physical, exquisitely-designed barrier, and the Other World is literally physically above it.

 

[Sera_EX]

Just because it's the size of the observable/known universe that is the Mortal Universe and has a different flow of time, doesn't make it it's own spacetime continuim. Yes it's separate, I didn't say it wasn't. But guess what? It's still part of Universe 7. Universe 1, 2, 3, etc. are considered separates spacetimes, not the afterlife, hell, etc. A universe is a whole. Not a part. It is only not as such when multiverses are invovled and even then things get muddy. The universe is everything. The afterlife is part of Universe 7. Universe 12 is not. That's the difference. Universe 7 includes the afterlife, mortal universe, hell, etc. All of these realms are part of Universe 7. They are not separate universes. They are part of Universe 7. That's a big difference between Otherworld and the other Universes like U6, U10, etc.

 

[Kepekley23]

It doesn't have its own flow of time, actually.

Goku was just talking about the fact that the effects of time flowing didn't apply on the Other World due to people being dead and their bodies not aging anymore, and thus he could use SSJ3 at will and wouldn't feel exhausted while he was dead.

 

[Dragomer]

* "The Universe; the endless, expansive space wrapped around every celestial body that exists in the Living World. Along with the "Demon Realm," it is a single, large world in the Living World. In the world of Dragon Ball, the universe is located beneath the World Beyond, and it is hermetically sealed by a barrier that is engraved with a strange design."
They aren't dimensions - the universe is sealed within a physical, exquisitely-designed barrier, and the Other World is literally physically above it.

Thanks for proving my point ' it is hermetically sealed by a barrier', 'physical barrier' is never mentioned at any point.

'They aren't dimensions', wrong, they are treated as such, the barrier even support it as they also call what divide the dimensions 'barrier'

'the universe is sealed within a physical', wrong, never said anywhere and isn't supported by anything.

'exquisitely-designed barrier' never said anywhere either, what is said it that there is a strange design graved on the barrier.

'Other World is literally physically above it.', it's above it on the map, just like the kaioshin realm is orbiting around it and the other universe are represented as next to it in a circle, that litteraly mean nothing.

 

[Dragomer]

It doesn't have its own flow of time, actually.
Goku was just talking about the fact that the effects of time flowing didn't apply on the Other World due to people being dead and their bodies not aging anymore, and thus he could use SSJ3 at will and wouldn't feel exhausted while he was dead.

No, he didn't, he directly mentionned how time works and SSJ3 has nothing to do with the body aging, also Goku kept his body in the after life so your interpretation of what Goku meant is wrong.

Saying that Goku directly stating that time isn't the same in the after life / does not exist (depending on the translation) is some convoluted way to say people don't age there, which is really unrelated to what they are talking about, doesn't make any sense.

 

[Sera_EX]

It was literally stated that he could maintain SSJ3 (and Super Kaioken going by filler) because he was dead.

 

[Dragomer]

It was literally stated that he could maintain SSJ3 (and Super Kaioken going by filler) because he was dead.

He was still dead when he went SSJ3, he even had the halo and all, the context and Goku's full statement make it pretty clear it's being dead and in the after life with it's weird time that allowed him to maintain SSJ3.

It's been long since established that Goku's body in the after life is the same as his body outside of it.

Anyway, i said what i had to say, i'll let other people argue and stop the derailing.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

It was literally stated that he could maintain SSJ3 (and Super Kaioken going by filler) because he was dead.

Silly Sera, using filler as an example is irrelevant and in no way supports your claim. (Sarcasm)

 

[Kepekley23]

The context is:

Goku says he is almost out of time and thus won't be able to teach the kids Fusion, Piccolo says that's impossible since he should have more (Goku is drawn sweating as well as exhausted throughout the entire chapter), Goku then explains the reason why he has less time is because he went SSJ3, which ate up too much of his ki. In the midst of this, he explains that in the Other World this wouldn't be an issue because "time doesn't exist". The context is clearly on the fact that their bodies don't feel the passage of time.

If you go by the Other World Saga (I am personally of the belief that the Lore given to us on the Other World Saga is canon, considering Toriyama was heavily involved on the script at all times and gave Toei lots of informations that hadn't been revealed in the manga until much later, according to Herms) Olibu was stated by King Kai to have been in the Other World for 10,000 years(?) - which clearly suggests that time does exist. Even in the manga Goku mentions to Kaoshin that the Cell Saga was 7 years ago, suggesting the flow of time is the same on the Other World, and King Yemma mentions that Goku should return in one day.

Not to mention, Goku himself realized that he was wrong in the fight with Kid Boo. As long as he is dead, SSJ3 is fine to handle. Nothing about being on the Other World. The reason why he got exhausted was because of the time limit magically imposed on him by King Yemma and Baba.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Yes Kep I do agree that the flow of time is the same as the mortal universe, but that doesn't decide weather or not they're separate space time continuums. It's the weakest link of the argument that been debunked multiple times and it doesn't help any side of the argument. Why is this being argued against?

 

[Sera_EX]

The main argument, which is "we treat the 12 universes as individual space times" has already been debunked by me above.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Once again Kepekley is 100% correct.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

The main argument, which is "we treat the 12 universes as individual space times" has already been debunked by me above.

Where?

 

[Dragomer]

@Kepekley23

Except nothing in that indicate your whole 'Goku was just talking about the fact that the effects of time flowing didn't apply on the Other World due to people being dead and their bodies not aging anymore' thingy at all, if their body don't feel the passage of time and Goku directly and explicitly say there is no time there, then Goku said there was no time there and nothing contradict him, saying he actualy mean some unrelated thing about aging isn't supported by anything official and is quite frankly just reaching, Goku said what he said, it's pretty clear cut.

The wiki doesn't accept that saga as canon, so no and King Kai is charged with looking over the actual universe so he know how time has passed in the universe since Olibu died, so once again, not it doesn't suggest that time exist.

The fight with Kid Buu happen in the Kaioshin Realm which is even more seperated from the universe and it's time than the after life and Goku never 'realize he was wrong' given that he tire himself so much he has to have his stamina wished back so he can finish Kid Buu.

No, the exhaustion was always part of SSJ3, even during the TOP, Goku clearly show it as his most stamina consuming form and Goku himself say he can't handle Kid Buu since he is too tired, it's clearly not being dead that allow him to ignore the stamina drain of the SSJ3, all of the instance where he went SSJ3 when dead tired him out really fast, which wasn't the case while being in the other world.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

In his Daizenshuu 4 interview, Toriyama mentions first drawing the map of the Dragon Ball cosmos featured in Daizenshuu 4 and later guide books for the anime staff.

"For God's temple, I gave it a comparatively mysterious feeling, but on the other hand I thought it'd be good to have the afterlife be realistic. So Enma-daiō and the oni all wore suits like salary-men. I think you can see this by looking at the world map in this book, but there's a thing called the airport to Heaven. The background on that is that the people who go to Heaven all have to go by plane. This complete map was originally background information that I drew at the request of the anime people, but I took this opportunity to add the Kaiōshin World, which wasn't included in the complete map before, to make it perfect. In truth, this complete world map is something I made after I finished drawing the story, to make everything consistent. (laughs)"

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/moLe6pv

The line of text and the paragraph above state that Toriyama drew the Macrocosm map for guides, the daizenshuu and the anime for consistency. The images in the link are from the daizenshuu and DBZ Kai.

If Toriyama was involved with the universe's structure being included in the anime and daizenshuu, why in the bloody hell is Dende's statement and Buuhan's low 2-C feat treated as irrelevant when they are the strongest pieces of evidence? The map was made for the anime and daizenshuu, the two things that carry the argument. It's even kept in DBZ Kai, something that's meant to praise the all mighty manga of Toriyama.

How many times do I have to bring this up? Seriously it should ring bells when Buuhan has a low 2-C feat that only affects the mortal universe.

 

[The_Causality]

DB's Multiverse has the same Timeline/Space Time, all Time travels in U7 and U3 created time rings in U10. Time influence affect the whole Multiverse asides of their respective Universe if the case of different Space Time for Universee is true but it's not.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Kepekley and Sera. Perhaps we should close this thread?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think so.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Yes. It's pretty clear that the realms are not separate space-times.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.