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2-C Dragon Ball Characters

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What about the note on Zeno's profile?

Note: We consider the universes in Dragon Ball alternate timespaces relative each other, hence why Zen'ō is rated as 2-C, despite the events in the Goku Black Saga showing parallel timelines encompassing the whole of the multiverse.

The reason for this is that Universe 7 by itself has already been shown to contain parallel space-time continuums within its globe, such as the Room of Spirit and Time, which is still affected by time travel; which proves that the new timelines can encompass other space-times as well, and thus the events in the Future Trunks Saga don't prove anything in the way of the universes being physically connected.
 
Nothing, just contemplating how overly-complicated and contradictory the Dragonball cosmology is.
 
Zamasu Chan said:
What about the note on Zeno's profile?

Note: We consider the universes in Dragon Ball alternate timespaces relative each other, hence why Zen'ō is rated as 2-C, despite the events in the Goku Black Saga showing parallel timelines encompassing the whole of the multiverse.

The reason for this is that Universe 7 by itself has already been shown to contain parallel space-time continuums within its globe, such as the Room of Spirit and Time, which is still affected by time travel; which proves that the new timelines can encompass other space-times as well, and thus the events in the Future Trunks Saga don't prove anything in the way of the universes being physically connected.
Click to expand...
I wrote that note, dude.

The RoSaT is planet-sized and thus doesn't make U7 2-C.
 
I'm not talking about the ROSAT, I'm talking about where it says "parallel space-time continuums", it's plural.
 
It is a generalized statement, not talking about the Afterlife, only about the RoSaT. I was the one who wrote the note.
 
Don't all the numbered universes fit inside the same space-time? Whis and angels can fly freely between them without need of an special kind of teleportation of any kind which would suggest they're physically connected to eachother.
 
AguilaR101 said:
Don't all the numbered universes fit inside the same space-time? Whis and angels can fly freely between them without need of an special kind of teleportation of any kind which would suggest they're physically connected to eachother.
Click to expand...
We don't actually know how Whis' Staff Warp ability works. We know it has a finite speed but we don't know if it has any special properties like "Bypassing dimensional barriers" and such. However, saying that they can fry freely between them is sort of ignoring how Whis and the Angels fly up into the air and smash nothingness and then appear travelling as a shooting star in the background. So saying "Angels can fly freely between them" isn't really an argument for them being physically connected since we also have Angels going to and fro from the afterlife and mortal realm. Which, obviously can't be PHYSICALLY connected besides the proverbial method most people use. But then they wouldn't be "physical" if they did that, so...
 
Then what is the reason the afterlife and kaio realms are considered part of one and the same space time?
 
AguilaR101 said:
Then what is the reason the afterlife and kaio realms are considered part of one and the same space time?
Click to expand...
Refer to the 4th post of this thread.

"I don't get it nor why this conclusion was immediately accepted, but it's the general gist."

We have statements that the Otherworld's time is different from the progression of time in the Mortal Realm, we have statements that the RoSaT is flat out another Space-Time (Albeit, on a Pocket scale), and that it would take breaking the dimensional barriers of Space-Time to forcibly breach the two together. All the RoSaT means is that smaller Space-Times can exist within larger Macro-Space Time Continiums.
 
Its a 2-C structure. It is clearly stated that other world and demon realm is seperate from the living universe, have diffrent physics to some degree including diffrent flows of time, and are seperate spaces requiring special techniques to reach, such as teleportation.

Demon realm and Univese are seperate dimensions with diffrent physics despite being part of the living world

https://imgur.com/a/29HD4Ka

Other world is as well seperate from these "dimensions" requiring teleportation or a similar hax to reach without death

Some people argue that the DB cosmology puts them in the same "timeline" and therefore U7 macrocausm is a Low 2-C structure, despite other world, the living Universe and demon realm being stated seperate spaces with diffrent physics, yet being classified as part of U7. However by that logic all 12 Universes are still just a Low 2-C structure going by the semantics of the word "timeline".

In reality if we don't use double standards then we would accept the seperate spaces in U7 as their own Universal structures, and have U7 macrocausm as a whole be a 2-C structure. Currently the wiki uses double standards and ignores the fact U7 is composed of several seperate spaces, but recognizes that the other Universes, while sharing the "timeline", are seperate spaces and therefore as a whole a 2-C structure regardless.
 
>Double standards

>DB is the only verse where this 2-C universe thing is being even argued in or exists.

Like I said before, different space? A different flow of time? Different physics? Literally different dimensions 101, I don't see Marvel, DC, PMMM, etc, etc getting this treatment.
 
It is double standards. We accept the other spaces for the other universes in DB as their own structures despite sharing the "timeline" That same logic would extend to other spaces that are of Universe size as well. If you don't use double standards. The living universe alone is literally described as like our own, and a seperate dimesnion from demon realm and other world, with diffrent physical laws.

As for Marvel/DC, I would think the vast majority of Universe busters are never explicitly shown to destroy all these many realms simoltainiously with said Universe. In DB it is shown multiple times for "Universe" destroying feats that the afterlife, kaioshin realm etc would be destroyed to. If they did show a Marvel or DC character destroying many universae sized spacetimes I would have no issue calling them multiversal.
 
No we don't. You keep saying that but you have no actual examples.

Maybe that's because that's not a real thing for Marvel/DC either?
 
Yes you do. Zeno destroys the timeline, it's 2-C since each Universe is considered it's own Low 2-C structure despite all being connected to the same timeline.

The living Universe is it's own universe sized seperate dimension, a Low 2-C structure. The demon realm is also it's own seperate Low 2-C structure or dimension with diffrent physics, and so is Other world. They are literally said to be alternate dimensions with diffrent physics. Same deal as the other Universes. Sure they are connected like the other Univeses, but still comlpetly seperate spaces.
 
If this reasoning was to be excepted then some other low 2-Cs in other verses would be upgraded to 2-C.
 
Anyway, I was asked to give my stance on the topic so I did. You guys can do what you want. As far as I am concerned it is pretty obviously a 2-C structure though for the reasons above.

Makes no sense to accept seperate spaces in the same timeline for Zeno's case, but then not in anybody elses like U7 macrocausm.

Edit: As for another example look at Saint Seiya. Hell was treated as a seperate space time that garnered a 2-C rating despite being connected to and a part of the Universe and following it's time. Virtualy the same situation with multiple universe sized spaces that are connected, just biased against DB form what I can see given SS got a 2-C for it and DB got Low 2-C.
 
And yet again, no examples. Because we don't have such a double standard. I've listed verses which have the same things as DB, yet none of them are treated as 2-C for each universe.

No, like I've said several times. You need more evidence. It's just headcanon that they're all separate timelines. All your evidence can be applied to most dimensions in fiction. Again, Marvel or DC. PMMM if you want to see this in action the most in just a few minutes.
 
SomebodyData said:
>Double standards
>DB is the only verse where this 2-C universe thing is being even argued in or exists.

Like I said before, different space? A different flow of time? Different physics? Literally different dimensions 101, I don't see Marvel, DC, PMMM, etc, etc getting this treatment.
Click to expand...
Where is this same Cosmological Structure in Marvel, DC or PMMM? What? Getting this treatment? The heck you talking about? We have several statements and flat out confirmation of the existence of separate space-times and of how Time isn't the same between the afterlife, Mortal Realm, and Hell. The best Marvel has is the realms of Norse Mythology, problem is time very clearly flows linearly throughout all of it. Not comparable to Dragon Ball whatsoever.

Also why is Beerus and the like not 2-C again? Zen'O is 2-C because he blew up all 12 Macroverses, yet Beerus fighting against another GoD would destroy both of their respective universes. This is also supported in the manga btw. So this is not 2-C... why?
 
You mean where several dimensions function under a different flow of time, space, physics, etc? Because if that's what you're talking about by cosmological structure, then just look at a PMMM witch's page or most Marvel/DC reality warpers/creators.

Have... you not seen PMMM or read DC and Marvel? That falls under most reality warpers/dimension creators' abilities.

None of them explicitly state different space-time continuum or timelines tho. The most you got is a different flow of time and physics. Which again, is not enough to say low 2-C timeline.
 
Beerus and Champa destroying their respective universes is a Low 2-C feat at most. Also non-linear time =/= separate timelines. Never did.
 
Here's how I see it (if you have trypophobia, I'm sorry):
Screenshot 2019-02-26 at 9.53.34 AM
Take these two pieces of swiss cheese (macroverses), and just focus on one of them.

Each separate hole is a separate space/dimension, and the cheese itself is the spacetime continuum, essentially making the dimensions separated by the same spacetime structure. So, a macroverse is a bigger than normal universe, but it is still all in the same spacetime continuum, so it's still just one universe as a whole. So eating just one of these cheeses would basically be like being above baseline Universal+, but still Universal+.

For Low Multiversal, that's a case where you eat both pieces of cheese at the same time, two spacetime continuums.


Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, I just wanted to say how I viewed it.
 
DragonBall has nonlinear time in (presumably) each universe. That doesn't mean each universe is 2-C as they are still singular spacetime continuums, they just have non-linear time throughout their various realms.
 
I agree with Sera.
 
Jesus Christ, what an utter mess I returned to see. It's like I can't leave a Dragon Ball thread for 5 seconds without it going down the drain. This is gonna be a rant/rebuttal, questioning decisions and giving facts. I'll be starting with your note Kepekley.

Note: We consider the universes in Dragon Ball alternate timespaces relative each other, hence why Zen'ō is rated as 2-C, despite the events in the Goku Black Saga showing parallel timelines encompassing the whole of the multiverse. The reason for this is that Universe 7 by itself has already been shown to contain parallel space-time continuums within its globe, such as the Room of Spirit and Time, which is still affected by time travel; which proves that the new timelines can encompass other space-times as well, and thus the events in the Future Trunks Saga don't prove anything in the way of the universes being physically connected.

This note implies that space time continuums can exist in the globes of the numbered Universes. It explains why each timeline contains alternate dimensions. This is where SSJRyu1's double standard argument comes into play. He's asking "how come the timeline can have multiple space time continuums but the numbered universes can't contain space time continuums?" Isn't that clear to you guys? The ROSAT is just a pocket dimension and the "different flow of time" argument is completely out of the picture for both sides of the argument. All numbered universes have these same exact flow of time and they're still treated as separate on the wiki, why is this even being argued among you guys? They're still different space time continuums so it's completely irrelevant to bring up. Another thing that's an abused argument is Marvel, DC and Bayonetta.

Stop bringing these up, I understand you guys are trying to make an analogy. The point is it doesn't work for Dragon Ball especially since is a different verse. Dragon Ball is the most simplistic verse on the wiki and you guys are comparing it to Marvel? Marvel has some of the most complex cosmology and some of the most precise and/or specific AP and/or scaling. Marvel actually acknowledges the difference between 3-A universal and low 2-C universal while Toriyama throws that out the God Damn window. His actual interpretation of universe is low 2-C and because he never had the idea of other numbered universes, it's likely that he viewed the mortal universe, the makai, the afterlife, and the Kaiōshin realm as low 2-C structures, during the Z era of course. They even call the mortal universe "The Universe" in the Z era and they refer to the other realms as alternate dimensions. The minute DBS is announced that's when these facts are ignored because of the new interpretation of universe. Keep that in mind I'm not done with it yet.

Then we got Dende's statement and Super Buu's feat that holds the most weight, but before I talk about it, there's a problem with the statement and how it holds in terms of canonicity. Apparently it's not acceptable because he never stated it in the manga... What... the... ****. This is inconceivable in my opinion and let my explain why. According to this thread (https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2496096?useskin=oasis) and this thread (https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2732988?useskin=oasis) the whole U7 size is dependent on this blog (https://www.narutoforums.org/threads/the-size-of-universe-7-dragon-ball-super.1095359/). Why is this a problem you may ask. It's simply because its size affects the entire Dragon Ball continuity. If the increased size affects the speed and AP of characters from the DBZ Manga, DBZ Anime, DBZ Kai, GT, DBS Manga and the DBS anime, why the hell iare Dende's statement and Buu's feat treated as non canon trash when it's in the daizenshuu and secondary canon source? Really think about this, DBZ Kai was made to be the anime adaptation of the manga, they could have removed all of the filler if they wanted to but they didn't. Filler was made to drag the run time of DBZ so it won't pass the manga. In Kai they don't have to worry about that happening. The scene where Super Buu was destroying the universe was kept and it was in the daizenshuu.

This is so silly. They're called alternate dimensions/realms, it's not possible to reach through normal flight and there are walls between dimensions that can only be broken by vice shout. Why is flying between dimensions an argument? Characters do it in fiction all the time. It's not like some normie flew to the realms normally. The Angels have an ability called Warp, it's how they fly through dimensions and travel through time. As a matter of fact they're the only beings who ever flew through them. Goku Black and Zamasu had time rings, instant transmission and KaiKai so they don't count either.

If it's stated characters that can only traverse universes by teleportation or space time travel and you have the Buuhan thing then it's literally putting 2 and 2 together. We have a clear statement and a feat to support it and nothing disproves it. Anyway like I said in paragraph 4, Toriyama isn't a damn scientist or astronomer. He doesn't have different point of views of the universe size between the anime and the manga. The structure is in the DBS manga and it's in the daizenshuu. Why is everyone in the mindset that all filler is BS. Good Lord it's like you can't win. Originally these characters are 2-C are because of a lack of evidence not because of evidence against it, but now that I have supportive evidence, it's flat out being ignored. Why? Because filler causes contradictions? What contradictions? It's in DBZ Kai, the most faithful thing in the original manga. It's in the daizenshuu, something approved by Toriyama himself. Dende's statement is the complete opposite of contradictory, it actually makes things clear.
 
Here is the thing: the Daizenshuu states the Other World is literally physically above the Living World, and that the two are just sealed by a Thin, Physical Barrier. They aren't even different dimensions.
 
Bayonetta?

Who said Bayonetta lmao?

Also, you don't understand the 'analogy'. Not just because it isn't an analogy to begin with, but because it was a rebuttal to the double standards that SSJRyu1 talked about. The fact that you separated them shows you didn't read it well enough.

I didn't participate in the other arguments so I won't reply to that, but if they're like your 'rant/rebuttal, questioning decisions and giving facts' when you didn't even read my arguments correctly, then I'm pretty sure its just as bad.
 
Kepekley23 said:
Here is the thing: the Daizenshuu states the Other World is literally physically above the Living World, and that the two are just sealed by a Thin, Physical Barrier. They aren't even different dimensions.
Click to expand...
It doesn't, it talk about a 'barrier' but we've seen that 'barrier' in dragon ball mostly refer to ki, dimension and other magic stuff, nothing say it's a physical one, let alone a 'thin' one.

Also they are different dimensions, they are treated as such and time is different between the two as Goku stated.
 
>Also they are different dimensions, they are treated as such and time is different between the two as Goku stated.

Still not 2-C. I already mentioned why. Non-linear time does =/= two different spacetimes. It means one non-linear spacetime.
 
Sera EX said:
>Also they are different dimensions, they are treated as such and time is different between the two as Goku stated.Still not 2-C. I already mentioned why. Non-linear time does =/= two different spacetimes. It means one non-linear spacetime.
Click to expand...
I disagree but it doesn't even matter given that's not my post was about, i made it purely to respond to what look like blatant missinformation to me.

I disagree with a lot of aspect of how we consider 2-C in general so i prefer to let others argue when it come to that;
 
You disagree? That's literally how non-linear time works. Ó▓á_Ó▓á

Why would Otherworld be a completely separate spacetime? It's still affected by time travel, otherwise Goku would be dead regardless if Trunks went back in time or not and have him the medicine.
 
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