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2-A Star vs the Forces of Evil

Greenshifter said:
Meteora was definitely able to put her force into those lasso attacks, kinda like a whip, aside from outlier or not that’s valid scaling.

Obviously Star dodges, she has the mobility advantage.

Chains are lifting strength and she wasn’t even consciously trying at that moment, her LS in base could arguably be good enough to break free from those chains.

Magic could very well amp her dura without forcefields and we don’t have any real fights aside from the Meteora one (maybe in season 4 since I didn’t fully see that yet) to determine her dura. This also means she has no real anti-feats since it was Marco who was scared of the harpoon killing her (not to mention the harpoon probably shouldn’t even have killed her in base) and not Star herself and this is before Marco saw any dura feats from Mewberty Star.

Also besides Meteora being a monster, how do you think she even has low 2-C dura? Cause she also has magic.
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That's not how that force really works, she's flinging the lasso whip around itself but the damage being done is not equal to Meteora's, you see the walls barely break through this.

Her not consciously trying is irrelevant when her unconscious self was more able to use spells then her conscious self, look how casually her unconscious self could open portals compared to her awake self as an example.

Chains could've easily been broken beyond LS and she was unable to do so and again, a harpoon was going to kill her.

The only people we've seen able to use magic to physically amp themselves is Mina Loveberry and Meteora was getting stronger through stealing souls. It's also clearly shown what a physically amped by magic warrior looks like in SVTFOE with Mina and Meteora having extremely buff figures.

Us not having real fights is irrelevant to the fact that a member of the magic high commission and Marco were very sure a harpoon would kill Mewberty Star. Also Marco was the only person scared because Hekapoo didn't realize that was Star. There's also the fact that the entire scene was portrayed like that was going to indeed kill Star. Also I don't see why the harpoon "probably shouldn't even have killed her in base". Why would Marco need to see durability feats from Mewberty Star? This again is random conjecture and goes against the natural consistency of the verse, we see how magically amped people look like, mewberty star looks nothing like that, It's far more consistent and reasonable to have it be that their physicals are around tier 8 while their higher potency spells should be higher tiers.
 
All the anti-feats that you mentioned are anti-feats which would downgrade base Star. So you either downgrade Base Star to harpoon level (or wall level) which is most likely under 8-C and definitely under 8-B or you discard them. Also Star’s supposed low 2-C attacks don’t damage the surroundings either so the damaging walls stuff just doesn’t work.

Her unconscious self can maybe use spells better but that doesn’t mean she uses her full Lifting Strength. Also Superhuman should probably be enough to break out of those chains so either downgrade Base Star’s LS or discard the feat.

Yet Glossaryck would be 2-A without being buff. Also doesn’t Mina have decent AP and dura feats without being buff?

Hekapoo didn’t realize it was Star yet her word is supposedly reliable on it? Ah yes because there can be no tension when the characters are low 2-C and they have to look like they flawlessly overcome any 3D obstacle.

If you want to claim Marco is knowledgeable on Star’s durability in Mewberty form then at the very least he should have seen her take attacks before, which he didn’t. Also there are several characters who are high in tier that get threatened by piercing weapons in fiction.
 
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The harpoon is getting shot into the sky at fast speeds so I don't exactly see why it'd be 9-B. Also she shouldn't even be 8-B, the 8-B reasoning got calc'd to High 8-C.

Why would we discard a feat because you think it would probably be enough, that is nowhere near enough reason to discard a feat, honestly that's bordering argument from belief.

I legit don't even understand what you're trying to argue here, I said Hekapoo didn't react like Marco because she wasn't aware it was Star just a being opening up random portals. Marco himself was very much afraid of it killing Star. I don't see how this last point debunks anything when your argument requires you to prove she's low 2-C.

Then those characters in fiction either need to be downgraded or there actual feats outweight the piercing feats, that doesn't do it in this case. Arguing "Marco isn't aware of her durability" isn't even an argument, he has enough logical understanding to see what would kill her and the scene portrays it as such, we're not going off of Marco's word alone.

Hell the very feat you're trying to use to scale her she actively needs to avoid or use shields to avoid many of her attacks and any of the actual "attacks" she gets "hit" by are either not from Meteora herself or was a wall pin that didn't even destroy the wall, and again Meteora in that fight wanted to take Star's soul so there would be no reason to kill her.
 
Greenshifter said:
Thus Zamasu should be downgraded from Low 2-C since being the universe isn’t proof enough. Noted.
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No need for that comparison, he went and tried to merge himself with other timeline didn't he? I didn't watch DBS beyond ep 4, the Kirby comparison I made above was to point out how characters can have this super big things inside yet not attack with the power to destroy it or have the same dura.

With that point made and listened, and me not knowing much about the verse I will have to unfollow this thread. Good luck handling the matter.
 
IIRC RPG’s (rocket launchers) are 8-C. We should probably calc the harpoon then to see whether it’s under Base Star’s dura or above.

When I say I believe in this context it means I did a rough calc in my head or am working off of feats that I know the value of such as Class 1 being needed to break apart chains yet Superhuman being a placeholder for any level above Peak Human.

Thus Hekapoo’s opinion is irrelevant since she doesn’t know who she’s talking about.

You’re saying that Star’s doesn’t have low 2-C dura because of the surroundings not getting damaged. I’m saying Star’s low 2-C attacks don’t damage the surroundings so why would Meteora’s attacks do so?

I’m talking about like a good chunk of fiction here. Marco panicks about a lot of stuff, that’s in his character and I am still not convinced Marco suddenly knows how durable Star is in a new form he recently found out about.

Throwing someone into walls the way Meteora did is still valid for scaling and while she may not have a reason to kill her, burden of proof is on you to claim she is holding back, trust me I dealt with this a lot in Ben 10, claiming someone is holding back against someone with almost no anti-feats is very hard to do. Also can’t she just drain the soul after regularly killing her? Like I said before, her dodging attacks is so she doesn’t get hurt, not because she’s afraid of getting oneshot.

That said we are kinda derailing the thread and until the harpoon feat is calced there’s no real reason to discuss this further so I’ll put aside my arguments for now and focus on getting 2-A accepted.
 
Yes, whatever or not Star's durability should scale is no matter for this thread, this is for the 2-A upgrade, so please don't derail the subject you two
 
Greenshifter said:
IIRC RPG’s (rocket launchers) are 8-C. We should probably calc the harpoon then to see whether it’s under Base Star’s dura or above.

When I say I believe in this context it means I did a rough calc in my head or am working off of feats that I know the value of such as Class 1 being needed to break apart chains yet Superhuman being a placeholder for any level above Peak Human.

Thus Hekapoo’s opinion is irrelevant since she doesn’t know who she’s talking about.

You’re saying that Star’s doesn’t have low 2-C dura because of the surroundings not getting damaged. I’m saying Star’s low 2-C attacks don’t damage the surroundings so why would Meteora’s attacks do so?

I’m talking about like a good chunk of fiction here. Marco panicks about a lot of stuff, that’s in his character and I am still not convinced Marco suddenly knows how durable Star is in a new form he recently found out about.

Throwing someone into walls the way Meteora did is still valid for scaling and while she may not have a reason to kill her, burden of proof is on you to claim she is holding back, trust me I dealt with this a lot in Ben 10, claiming someone is holding back against someone with almost no anti-feats is very hard to do. Also can’t she just drain the soul after regularly killing her? Like I said before, her dodging attacks is so she doesn’t get hurt, not because she’s afraid of getting oneshot.

That said we are kinda derailing the thread and until the harpoon feat is calced there’s no real reason to discuss this further so I’ll put aside my arguments for now and focus on getting 2-A accepted.
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I saw the derail part but I'm still going to reply to these specific parts cause some of this actually makes me question the character in question (Meteora's) tiering. Also I frankly disagree with the concept that this is derail, cause this is an argument based on who scales physically to the feat in question or not.

Go ahead and calc it and go ahead and downgrade her, even then my point was on the very narrative of the scene and how New Mewberty is never treated as physically stronger then regular Star only that her magic is stronger.

I don't know why I'm obligated to take a rough calc in your head I cannot see nor why that mitigates my previous reply.

Actually looking back at the scene, Hekapoo notices it's Star here then the bird dude pushes her out of the way to shoot her and she yells "NO!" at him and needs to drive the motorcycle away before the harpoon reaches Star:


Which one of Star's attacks there against Meteora is Low 2-C? Know what now thinking about it, why is Meteora even Low 2-C? She didn't even fully get to her soul absorption by that point and her fight with Moon was very brief and there's nothing even implying Moon used the spells that are actually 2-A in SVTFOE against her, hell Meteora was getting harmed by telekinetically thrown rocks only SPECIFIC spells in SVTFOE are Low 2-C, a lot of them range:


and Meteora's main method of attack is through soul hax which bypasses conventional dura, with her being able to tank hits due to the amount of souls she absorbed.

Marco panicking about a lot of stuff =/= him logically seeing a scene where he can affirm that Star will die. The way he panics generally is an over acted scene too, which is not how he did it in this scene.

She wants to keep her alive and to soul hax her, and it's clearly shown Meteora is physically superior to everyone to the point that all of Star's attacks barely do anything to her, and seeing as her attacks are barely denting the walls when she earlier while fighting the Magnificent 7 was casually fragmenting rocks and breaking apart trees I don't think any burden falls on my by this point, it's self-evident and fits along with the narrative, also no offense, but I do not care what you had to deal with in Ben 10 this is not Ben 10 nor am I you. Why would she be able to drain the soul after killing her, what at all implies that?
 
Overlord775 said:
Yes, whatever or not Star's durability should scale is no matter for this thread, this is for the 2-A upgrade, so please don't derail the subject you two
Click to expand...
It is a matter for this thread when explaining who directly scales physically or magically. So not really derail.

Even then it seems everyone that wasn't Eficiente was on board and he admitted he just wanted to get an argument across along with saying he doesn't have that much knowledge on the verse.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
I saw the derail part but I'm still going to reply to these specific parts cause some of this actually makes me question the character in question (Meteora's) tiering. Also I frankly disagree with the concept that this is derail, cause this is an argument based on who scales physically to the feat in question or not.

Go ahead and calc it and go ahead and downgrade her, even then my point was on the very narrative of the scene and how New Mewberty is never treated as physically stronger then regular Star only that her magic is stronger.

I don't know why I'm obligated to take a rough calc in your head I cannot see nor why that mitigates my previous reply.

Actually looking back at the scene, Hekapoo notices it's Star here then the bird dude pushes her out of the way to shoot her and she yells "NO!" at him and needs to drive the motorcycle away before the harpoon reaches Star:


Which one of Star's attacks there against Meteora is Low 2-C? Know what now thinking about it, why is Meteora even Low 2-C? She didn't even fully get to her soul absorption by that point and her fight with Moon was very brief and there's nothing even implying Moon used the spells that are actually 2-A in SVTFOE against her, hell Meteora was getting harmed by telekinetically thrown rocks only SPECIFIC spells in SVTFOE are Low 2-C, a lot of them range:


and Meteora's main method of attack is through soul hax which bypasses conventional dura, with her being able to tank hits due to the amount of souls she absorbed.

Marco panicking about a lot of stuff =/= him logically seeing a scene where he can affirm that Star will die. The way he panics generally is an over acted scene too, which is not how he did it in this scene.

She wants to keep her alive and to soul hax her, and it's clearly shown Meteora is physically superior to everyone to the point that all of Star's attacks barely do anything to her, and seeing as her attacks are barely denting the walls when she earlier while fighting the Magnificent 7 was casually fragmenting rocks and breaking apart trees I don't think any burden falls on my by this point, it's self-evident and fits along with the narrative, also no offense, but I do not care what you had to deal with in Ben 10 this is not Ben 10 nor am I you. Why would she be able to drain the soul after killing her, what at all implies that?
Click to expand...

Also the chains you showed in that scene are far FAR smaller then the ones wrapping around New Mewberty.
 
Doesn't matter, it's litterally not the purpose of the thread, this one is just to change the Low 2-C ratings to 2-A

Also, explain why the chain should be smaller
 
The purpose of the thread is upgrading them to 2-A and in your very thing you mention who'd scale to it, so it actually falls on the purpose. It's just not the direct purpose. Hell it's literally talking about who in question gets the 2-A scaling so I really see no way how this is derail. "Doesn't matter" or "not the purpose of this thread" are both objectively wrong.

Where did I say the chains should be smaller, I was mentioning that the example they used in their head is from far smaller chains then what Star wraps herself around.
 
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I'm still pretty against Tier 2 Star physically. It's pretty clear that they are meant to be weaker without Magic. Star needed to conjure up the Rainbow Kaiju Battle Armor to even contest a Solarian Warrior. The moment she fell out of it, she literally would have died if Eclipsa hadn't come in for the save. Eclipsa and Star both showed they needed shields to actually fend off attacks from the warriors too.
 
Mind you the only other physically tier 2 I can think of that she fought was Globgor and he casually beat her while not even trying to fight that seriously since he wanted to not get his family in trouble with a simple grab:
 
Antvasima said:
All:

What are the summarised conclusions here?

@OishiLover75 @The_real_cal_howard @Inverted_Tempest @CinnabarManx421

Are you willing to help out with input here?
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Some have agreed to 2-A upgrades with Eficiente moreso questioning how Omnitraxtus Prime works but giving no official opinion due to him not being fully knowledgeable on the verse. Also me and Ploz are in agreement of the regular magic users not scaling physically to 2-A and only with their most potent spells.
 
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Okay. No problem. What are the uncertainties/questions of content then?
 
Okay, and what are the conclusions in that regard?
 
So far since he's unfollowed the thread there's no real official conclusion. Though Omnitraxtus Prime has a statement of keeping the multiverse from eating itself along with the wand having a statement of destroying the universe which in the context of SVTFOE refers to the multiverse
 
Are there any other staff members that you think would be suitable to help out with evaluating this? As a high-ranking staff member, I can get their attention here via the @Username command.
 
Okay. Feel free to come with suggestions for discussion moderators and administrators that you think could help out.
 
I'm not familiar with this verse, but I think I can help out here.
 
From looking at the link, this does seem legitimate.

Omnitraxus refers to himself as all space-time, and both shows and states that infinite parallel universes exist inside of him. So 2-A seems perfectly fine for him, provided this is not an outlier or is not contradicted.

The scaling is something that the knowledgeables of this verse will have to handle and discuss on their own, as I'm not personally familiar enough with it to conclude who scales to Omnitraxus.
 
Okay. Thanks again. This is probably fine then.
 
I haven't read the whole thread, so I haven't seen if there are more augments, but I completely disagree with the OP. Even the current Low 2-C ratings are dodgy. Not only is Omnitraxus saying he is space-time the only thing that gives it a leg to stand on, it's contradicted multiple times. Glossaryck creates when space-time already existed and just put him "in charge" of it, the same way Hekapoo is for interdimensional travel. He also gets casually killed by Toffee and nothing happens to space-time.

Not to mention these feats are so far above anything shown in the verse I don't know how it's not been deemed an outlier. The only other "supporting feat" that I can think of is in the first episode when Moon says "the wand will blow up the universe", or something along those lines, which was clearly not serious and even at face value wouldn't warrant anything above a "possibly" rating.
 
Ogbunabali seems to make very good points.
 
Given that they appear to be more knowledgeable on the verse than I am, and they've offered good points with good justifications, I'm inclined to retract my earlier point and say that I agree with Og.
 
Ogbunabali said:
Not to mention these feats are so far above anything shown in the verse I don't know how it's not been deemed an outlier. The only other "supporting feat" that I can think of is in the first episode when Moon says "the wand will blow up the universe", or something along those lines, which was clearly not serious and even at face value wouldn't warrant anything above a "possibly" rating.
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Neutral here, but I think a supporting feat would be how Skywynne apparently exploded an entire dimension off-screen and that the Book of Spells has instructions for what to do if you accidentally destroy a universe, implying the Royal Magic Hand has power on that scale.
image0.png
 
The problem with that is, what "dimension" counts in Star is really weird. It can range from a planet to an unspecified large space, to potentially a universe, etc.

So I wouldn't use that as hard proof.
 
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