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This is pretty much argument from incredulity, as you're literally just saying "no is not" without elaborating further.
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2-A Pokemon Upgrade Revival: The Time Has Come
- Thread starter ProfessorKukui4Life
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Eh pretty sure they are, no space and time = nothing. The only thing you could argue separate from this is spirits... which gets referenced in the statement to be other Pokémon’s domains so Masuda got it completely right really.
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While an argument can be made for infinite space and time referring to a single universe as opposed to the overall multiverse but personally, I don't see how it can be flowery.
Like, even if it is part of his vision for the game, it's still a reference to how the cosmology works. Otherwise, I'm not sure what infinite would even represent.
Like, even if it is part of his vision for the game, it's still a reference to how the cosmology works. Otherwise, I'm not sure what infinite would even represent.
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No, as in misinterpreting it.
The point isn't that Lucian and the TCG connect to the response because that isn't needed. The point is that they all support the main point they equate to. Infinite time and space.
Thats how supporting evidence works.
Your entire point on this being flowery language is based on the part of the response that speaks about substance, which again, has absolutely nothing to do with the scale of what time and space are in the verse.
Stop presenting this as "connecting". We aren't saying they're connected to Masuda's statement, we're saying they support each other.
It is, because again, Lucian and the TCG are used as supporting evidence. They don't have to connect to Masuda's statement at all. They support each other, and simply support each other.
Because they're 2 different parts of what Masuda considers the ultimate? Literally what is this?
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My blog already gave an answer to this too on why that argument can't be formed, since Dialga and Palkia's dominion of what they govern is very obviously far beyond the scope of a single universe.
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I mean, we got:
- Space being described as all the parallel dimensions
- Palkia being described as the master of space
- Palkia being described as the creator of these parallel dimensions
- Palkia being stated to be able to manipulate space, which are parallel dimensions as even implied furthermore in the Darkrai movie and other medias
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I tried to contact SamanPatou and RealCal but they didn't gave a response yet
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- #172
We accept author interview statements all the time as they are in-depth contextual answers, and Masuda's statements are already accepted here.
There should be zero issues from this standpoint. At this point, this is only stonewalling the arguments.
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Creator statements are accepted unless they’re contradictory or otherwise proven unreliable. If that’s not the case, then you can use them completely fine.
Peppypony
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Honestly I'm just going to observe for now.
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Well, we used interviews like these for Mario and Akuma Homura, so it shouldn't be a problem here regardless.
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Styrm
We were arguing how Masuda's statement connects with Lucian and the TCG statement, and how it debunks it being flowery language?
Okay. How do you read that entire paragraph and not see how most of it is flowery and relating to how it all connects back to the theme of ultimate? Even if we say that somehow the last part of the paragraph is independent from the rest, how do you not see the first half as flowery?
Arceus was more of a point that calling Dialga and Palkia substance incarnate is hard-pressed, given Arceus created them too.
Professor
I think any neutral person can read the paragraph and reasonably interpret it similar to what I said, I mean he repeatedly mentions how he wanted to make the game focused around his idea of 'ultimate' whether it be with the GTS or storyline.
Again, I'm focused on how Lucian and the TCG were used as the counterarguments in the blog for flowery language.
It's based on the rest of the paragraph, not just the substance part. The idea being if he's being hyperbolic and flowery with the rest of the paragraph, it makes little sense he would stop with the last sentence.
That's just wordplay at this point, and it was countering your claim of how dots were being connected on this side when all the dot-connecting is being done on yours.
Again, the counterarguments on the blog are being used to indicate it isn't vague or flowery; the former is plausible but the latter has to come from within the paragraph itself.
Which is still a discussion of what he considers ultimate.
We were arguing how Masuda's statement connects with Lucian and the TCG statement, and how it debunks it being flowery language?
Okay. How do you read that entire paragraph and not see how most of it is flowery and relating to how it all connects back to the theme of ultimate? Even if we say that somehow the last part of the paragraph is independent from the rest, how do you not see the first half as flowery?
Arceus was more of a point that calling Dialga and Palkia substance incarnate is hard-pressed, given Arceus created them too.
Professor
I think any neutral person can read the paragraph and reasonably interpret it similar to what I said, I mean he repeatedly mentions how he wanted to make the game focused around his idea of 'ultimate' whether it be with the GTS or storyline.
Again, I'm focused on how Lucian and the TCG were used as the counterarguments in the blog for flowery language.
It's based on the rest of the paragraph, not just the substance part. The idea being if he's being hyperbolic and flowery with the rest of the paragraph, it makes little sense he would stop with the last sentence.
That's just wordplay at this point, and it was countering your claim of how dots were being connected on this side when all the dot-connecting is being done on yours.
Again, the counterarguments on the blog are being used to indicate it isn't vague or flowery; the former is plausible but the latter has to come from within the paragraph itself.
Which is still a discussion of what he considers ultimate.
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Styrm I can assure you, if Homura's interview began with "Yeah, this is my interpretation of ultimate and how UM and AH represent love and despair", we wouldn't be using it.
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I didn't read all replies, so I might have missed some important post, but here's my opinion based on the blog and some of the messages.
I'm against using Masuda's statement, as to me he's referring to a single universe, and I don't like mixing his words with other concepts, as we don't really know what he meant.
BUT
As someone already said (DDM, for example, I think) if the universe is infinite (in both time and space, stated by Masuda, Lucia and the ruins, if I'm not wrong), and there are alternate universes for each possibility, consequently there have to be infinite parallel universes, as the possibilities are infinite.
Though, nitpicking, I don't see in the blog an explicit mention to a universe for every single possibility, just for other possibilities. I may be missing something, but I think that to make it totally solid, we would need a statement of said universes existing for each possibility.
Another things, doesn't the "ever-expanding" space statement contradicts it being infinite?
I'm also against using the TCG, as it's just the name of an expansion, not an evidence.
I'm against using Masuda's statement, as to me he's referring to a single universe, and I don't like mixing his words with other concepts, as we don't really know what he meant.
BUT
As someone already said (DDM, for example, I think) if the universe is infinite (in both time and space, stated by Masuda, Lucia and the ruins, if I'm not wrong), and there are alternate universes for each possibility, consequently there have to be infinite parallel universes, as the possibilities are infinite.
Though, nitpicking, I don't see in the blog an explicit mention to a universe for every single possibility, just for other possibilities. I may be missing something, but I think that to make it totally solid, we would need a statement of said universes existing for each possibility.
Another things, doesn't the "ever-expanding" space statement contradicts it being infinite?
I'm also against using the TCG, as it's just the name of an expansion, not an evidence.
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Stop using the word connect, I'm not doing it, I'm using it to B A C K U P these statements not being flowery.
You have to say what else could it mean with Ultimate, literally nothing else can be pointed there.
I literally pointed out how they are even in profiles.
Are you now connecting the concept of Ultimate to the GTS when is clear that he wasn't reffering to it?
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Zinnia statement and Dia explanation in the anime are pretty enough tbf, the whole Team Rainbow Rocket + Ultra Wormholes are enough to imply that Pokémon uses MWI in USUM, also the Reflection Cave explains pretty much by itself.
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Excellent, the first thing that we agree upon. An argument that doesn't exist is, indeed, not an argument.
Already did. Fabricated, incorrectly contextualized arguments are not valid. Hence "fan fiction".
Not it isn't, it never is lmfao. You do understand that with this sentence you have actively advocated for the fabrication of feats, a bannable offence right? It doesn't matter if it "supports the overall point." Quite on the contrary, the only thing that that reveals is the motivation behind why someone would do this. You. Do. Not. Make. Feats. Up. Period.
No it doesn't. It's as if you haven't been listening to me at all (which, admittedly, is perfectly normal on this website). As I said, these things are not mutually exclusive. Just because Pokemon is a multiverse doesn't mean that space isn't expanding like it normally does. It's still a basic function of space to expand just like it always has been.
No you didn't. You're well aware that once you've actually answered this question your entire argument immediately falls apart.
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Saying something is flowery over and over again =/= its actually flowery. You should give more than overusing the word.
That first half of the paragraph is literally speaking about Dialga and Palkia being counter parts of each other, which we obviously know they are as one is time, the other is space.
How in the hell is this flowery at all?
He created them as the substance. This is simple.
Okay? What part of this is an actual counter Somebody? Its detailing what his focus for said game is, from both a mechanic standpoint and a storyline standpoint, the latter in which the upgrade is using.
Because they give more support?
It makes perfect sense when his explanation of the Ultimate comes down to 2 different things. Dialga and Palkia being counterparts, and the scale of what time and space is.
And there's nothing from this that's flowery in the first place anyway. That is a copout.
Giving supporting evidence to support one main point is not connecting dots. Dragging one totally unrelated point (the substance) and putting in the same boat as another (infinite time and space) is connecting dots.
You right now are the latter.
Says who?
Which doesn't at all counter the point of what he considers the scale of time and space in Pokemon. Which per his words is infinite.
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To be honest, I have to disagree with this. It just isn't good enough evidence. You're taking bits of pieces from different mediums and stitching them together to come up with this result of infinite universes based on possibilities. Had you given a single medium that outright said that there are infinite universes then this would be acceptable.
This is like saying any verse that has a confirmed unknown amount of universes, has several statements of space and time being infinite, and has a statement of possibilities would give it possibly 2-A and I just don't buy it.
You can't say that Masuda specifically meant that Pokemon had infinite amount of universes when he said space and time are infinite. You can't say the TCG specifically meant that Pokemon had infinite amount of universes when they manufactured an Infinite Space themed deck. You can't say that Lucian specifically meant that Pokemon had infinite amount of universes when he said the stars tantalize from across infinite space. You need a statement that directly says and is specifically stating that there are infintie universes.
Also
Archie and Max's statements are idealistic and romantic. They're not talking about a literal parallels universe.
The Reflection cave is not a chain of infinite universes. There is no statement that says it is. (because if there were we wouldn't be here) and not mention the Reflection cave is finite inside, there can't be infinite portals to infinite universes. And there can also just be a closed loop of finite universes that linking back to each other.
This is like saying any verse that has a confirmed unknown amount of universes, has several statements of space and time being infinite, and has a statement of possibilities would give it possibly 2-A and I just don't buy it.
You can't say that Masuda specifically meant that Pokemon had infinite amount of universes when he said space and time are infinite. You can't say the TCG specifically meant that Pokemon had infinite amount of universes when they manufactured an Infinite Space themed deck. You can't say that Lucian specifically meant that Pokemon had infinite amount of universes when he said the stars tantalize from across infinite space. You need a statement that directly says and is specifically stating that there are infintie universes.
Also
Archie and Max's statements are idealistic and romantic. They're not talking about a literal parallels universe.
The Reflection cave is not a chain of infinite universes. There is no statement that says it is. (because if there were we wouldn't be here) and not mention the Reflection cave is finite inside, there can't be infinite portals to infinite universes. And there can also just be a closed loop of finite universes that linking back to each other.
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I agree on that, my small problem was with the parallel worlds existing for every single possibility, not just an undefined number of them. To me it's totally possible, but I'd prefer having a precise statement on this.
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Uhm, I'm pretty sure that we don't assume that for multiverses.
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What are you insinuating? You're always so vague when you respond. Also, I'm pretty sure we don't "assume" things randomly like that in the first place.
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- #188
More like saying my argument doesn't exist isn't an argument in and of itself for you. Read better please.
Sorry but that's not proving anything. Saying its fan fiction aint evidence.
And no feats are being made up here. Nothing is being fabricated, and we very much do so.
And btw, you are no room to be talking about what's bannable when your behavior in these responses by themselves are less than stellar.
It very much does mean that, because that is the only way it fits in the context of the series you are actively trying to speak about. If space expanding doesn't refer to number, then there's no multiverse, which is very very very much wrong. So what's left? It means the number of universes in said multiverse. Simple.
See above. It's not, its referring to the number of universes as explained before.
I actually did, and you're well aware that once you actually accept the answer, your counter argument immediately falls.
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Strym
Wordplay and not true either, you guys used these as the main counterargument for flowery language in your blog, something you insisted we read first.
Can you reword that.
Not referring to time and space, but substance itself. That would include stuff like Anti-Matter or creation, which obviously Dialga and Palkia aren't the sole representives.
... The GTS was the first thing he mentioned in regards to ultimate:
"I decided that ‘ultimate’ was the theme in the beginning. I set myself a task to pursue what was the ‘ultimate’ for Pokemon games, and started to act on this theme when making the games. When I asked myself what is ‘ultimate,’ I immediately knew I wanted to improve the level of communication, which is a core element of Pokemon games. In the games, players receive the Pokedex and start collecting Pokemon, which you need to do in order to trade with others. At the time of Ruby & Sapphire, people could trade their Pokemon with someone close by, but not with anyone overseas. I really wanted to do something about this. And that’s why I came up with the Global Trade Station (GTS). "
Wordplay and not true either, you guys used these as the main counterargument for flowery language in your blog, something you insisted we read first.
Can you reword that.
Not referring to time and space, but substance itself. That would include stuff like Anti-Matter or creation, which obviously Dialga and Palkia aren't the sole representives.
... The GTS was the first thing he mentioned in regards to ultimate:
"I decided that ‘ultimate’ was the theme in the beginning. I set myself a task to pursue what was the ‘ultimate’ for Pokemon games, and started to act on this theme when making the games. When I asked myself what is ‘ultimate,’ I immediately knew I wanted to improve the level of communication, which is a core element of Pokemon games. In the games, players receive the Pokedex and start collecting Pokemon, which you need to do in order to trade with others. At the time of Ruby & Sapphire, people could trade their Pokemon with someone close by, but not with anyone overseas. I really wanted to do something about this. And that’s why I came up with the Global Trade Station (GTS). "
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Samou, all of this was literally addressed in my blog already.
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Except that you're still ignoring context about what Space means in the verse.
That's asking a negative. You'd have to prove how it ends, because as we say, the Reflection Cave leads to new and new universes, and Occam's Razor leads to an infinite chain.
Check better the section about the MWI, is pretty blantant.
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Considering MWI by itself already has a decent chance to produce infinite timelines, this should be enough yeah IMO.
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Literally when have we never been allowed to use different groups of supporting evidence from the same medium to support an upgrade? This isn't new at all.
And saying "it just isn't good enough evidence" isn't a counter argument.
Personal interpretation. Not an argument.
And this is a bad comparison when we have given actual context to explain why it refers to that.
And no offense, this is complete bullshit.
We don't need an outright infinite universes statement to get 2-A, we've literally never needed something that specific here and I ask that you show me where this is a case anywhere on this site.
Objectively wrong as the blog outright explains. What they state literally happens in the opposite game. Its not idealistic at all.
Which is unfounded speculation as the blog, once again, already explains.
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You could see the timelines branching as an expansion of space. Not sure within 2-A itself though.
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A thing you failed to point how it was, as all you said was just "are we sure that is not flowery?"
Dialga and Palkia are in short accepted as being the representation of Space and Time of the Pokémon reality.
You're like he's pointing at just that, but in the last phrase he's clearly reffering to the Pokémon reality in itself.
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I'm not asking you prove something doesn't exist. The reflection cave is finite in both the anime and the games. It's a location on a finite planet. That's already proven. You have to be the one to prove it's infinite or links to infinite universes. Occam's Razor leads to a closed loop of finite universes just as well.
Still? This is my first statement on the matter.
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Location on a finite planet doesen't remotely make sense as it links to another universe.
Also you're talking like it was stated that it ends in a loop, while nothing implied so, but instead, points more out to more and more universes without an end.
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And that's irrelevant as their doesn't need to be infinite mirrors inside one cave. The point is these mirrors in said cave are linking to infinite other caves in infinite different worlds.
No it doesn't. The point that these worlds are all different from one another goes directly against that. Its your burden of proof to prove where a closed loop is suggested anywhere.
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So you're ignoring that space = all the parallel universes? Touche
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Anti-Matter can’t exist without space. You have a point on how Giratina would fit into this but even his distortion world would be made by Palkia if I’m not mistaken. Creation as a concept is not part of substance.
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