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We got like, 34 non-stuff approvals, so not needed
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2-A Pokemon Upgrade Revival: The Time Has Come
- Thread starter ProfessorKukui4Life
- Start date
- Status
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Antvasima
Staff seems split, though admittedly most of the ones against the upgrade haven't given much reason why. Though there are more staff against than pro. It also doesn't help they insist on noting down only those who are pro, and not any of the con....
I won't be able to participate much soon enough, so I'll probably switch to neutral or pro in a bit. Got PMM revisions, HW, a yugioh thread, and another Pokemon revision to look after.
Professor
...And how they were written in regards of the theme of "ultimate". Most of the content being hype material and describing his thought process. Especially since, when he mentions Dialga and Palkia as being representative of substance it's obviously not to be taken literally, as Giratina exists in contrast.
No its spoken from the point of view that he wanted to make the ultimate game, hyping up the elements of time and space by calling them infinite.
Staff seems split, though admittedly most of the ones against the upgrade haven't given much reason why. Though there are more staff against than pro. It also doesn't help they insist on noting down only those who are pro, and not any of the con....
I won't be able to participate much soon enough, so I'll probably switch to neutral or pro in a bit. Got PMM revisions, HW, a yugioh thread, and another Pokemon revision to look after.
Professor
...And how they were written in regards of the theme of "ultimate". Most of the content being hype material and describing his thought process. Especially since, when he mentions Dialga and Palkia as being representative of substance it's obviously not to be taken literally, as Giratina exists in contrast.
No its spoken from the point of view that he wanted to make the ultimate game, hyping up the elements of time and space by calling them infinite.
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- Thread starter
- #243
Yeah what Strym said.
We have 34 regular users who've participated in previous threads about this topic agreeing with the upgrade, and staff approval from those 4 so far who agree with it.
We have 34 regular users who've participated in previous threads about this topic agreeing with the upgrade, and staff approval from those 4 so far who agree with it.
Valiant_Abyss
He/Him- 4,998
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I'd be fine settling for Likely 2-A as a middle ground.
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Uhm the pros are DDM, Eficiente, Kieran, Ned and Saman, you're the one against tbf
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- Thread starter
- #246
Which. Doesn't. Matter.
The verse still uses it, so its fine to apply.
Which is wrong as we take them to literally be what they represent. Giratina doesn't conflict with that.
Which is speaking specifically towards the lore and storyline of the games. Meaning he's speaking about the verse and not simply hype.
Therefore its literal.
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Greenshifter
No? Most fictions have infinite time in their timelines with MWI, it'd still be 2-C to 2-B.
Again, then how does anti-matter (a substance) fit here? It's just hyping them up, unless you want to argue Giratina was created by Dialga / Palkia or something.
No? Most fictions have infinite time in their timelines with MWI, it'd still be 2-C to 2-B.
Again, then how does anti-matter (a substance) fit here? It's just hyping them up, unless you want to argue Giratina was created by Dialga / Palkia or something.
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- Thread starter
- #248
You mean the member of the trio who's known to be forgotten in lore in-universe?
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Strym
Everything12 and Eficiente (From what I can tell, he still disagreed with some elements / don't think he agreed with 39.53 million multiverses) and Saman is just "likely / possible" last time I checked
Everything12 and Eficiente (From what I can tell, he still disagreed with some elements / don't think he agreed with 39.53 million multiverses) and Saman is just "likely / possible" last time I checked
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Trust me, check the previous posts, is full of agreements from also supporters
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- Thread starter
- #252
Cal, Stark and Saikou were called earlier, but have yet to respond.
We called The Pokemon-staff users here already, they just haven't responded back to this yet.
We called The Pokemon-staff users here already, they just haven't responded back to this yet.
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Everything didn't comment anymore to counter, Eficiente just said that "likely 2-A" is legit
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- Thread starter
- #254
Everything gave no reason to disagree and Eficiente's small bit came from an argument I debunked both in the blog and in this thread.
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Professor
This is an interview about Platinum, at best he forgot and isn't a reliable source in this interview at worst he remembers Giratina considering he's the main legendary of the game and this proves my point.
This is an interview about Platinum, at best he forgot and isn't a reliable source in this interview at worst he remembers Giratina considering he's the main legendary of the game and this proves my point.
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You're trying to prove a verse has infinite universes when it clearly has no statements of there being infinite universes. Your arguments do not prove there are infinite universes at all. It's just not cutting it. Asking for a direct statement or showing confirming it is not spoon-feeding.
At best all you've proven is that pokemon may have infinite multiversal space and time. Perhaps you can argue that having infinite multiversal space and time can warrant the tier upgrade, but you have no hard evidence for infinite parallel universes, just speculations based on descriptions of current universes.
You have not proven in anyway that within the context that those statements were made in (Masuda's statement, TCG description) they were specifically talking about an infinite multiverse. That's a reach.
You have only proven that space in pokemon can be a reference to the multiverse. But in no way have you shown that these references were specifically about the multiverse.
Your explanation again, is devoid of anything stating that caves link to infinite universes or that there is an infinite chain of universe.
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- Thread starter
- #257
Which doesn't since Giratina's lore is explicitly hidden behind the scenes in-universe as opposed to Dialga and Palkia. So no, he didn't forget. Its because Giratina is precisely treated this way in-universe.
And no? The substance statement has literally nothing to do with this Somebody. Once again.
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Okay, let's say you're right. Which still shows he's hyping up the main two. It doesn't really change much.
The substance statement is in the same paragraph as the upgrading sentence, if he's hyping them up in the paragraph it'd be hard-pressed to say he isn't in one exact sentence.
The substance statement is in the same paragraph as the upgrading sentence, if he's hyping them up in the paragraph it'd be hard-pressed to say he isn't in one exact sentence.
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- Thread starter
- #259
Which isn't needed. Context provides that.
Space = parallel universes
Said space is infinite.
Infinite parallel universes.
That is 2-A.
It very much is. That is putting obstacles that our standards don't abide by, and if they did, half the verses on this site wouldn't be in the tiers they are now.
Implication and context can make up for lack of pure confirmation.
Nothing here is speculation when all of this supporting evidence brought together equates to the same result.
And saying "no hard evidence" without actually debunking anything isn't an argument.
Its not a reach when its material coming from in-universe lore of what its considered as.
We don't need them to be. Thats a stonewalling argument.
And your argument is devoid of anything that suggests it isn't.
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@The_real_cal_howard @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Starter_Pack @GyroNutz @Elizhaa @Dino_Ranger_Black @Dragonmasterxyz @WeeklyBattles @Colonel_Krukov @Shadowbokunohero @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Firestorm808
Would you be willing to help evaluate this please?
Would you be willing to help evaluate this please?
The_Pink_God
She/Her- 2,641
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Quick Question:
Would Arceus still be Omnipresenf throug all of the 53 million multiverses?
Would Arceus still be Omnipresenf throug all of the 53 million multiverses?
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- Thread starter
- #262
Speaking about the lore and mythology and what it is in said game is not hype. That is a copout.
And who cares? Thats one unrelated aspect of what Masuda is speaking about.
Good thing none of this is hype then.
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Stop trying to ignore the issue. He is hyping them up by calling them masters of all substance which we definitely know not is not true. So why wouldn't the statement immediately after still not be hype?
If the paragraph is full of flowery language, discussion about the theme of creating the 'ultimate pokemon' experience, and hyping them up; it matters. A lot.
Denial at this point.
If the paragraph is full of flowery language, discussion about the theme of creating the 'ultimate pokemon' experience, and hyping them up; it matters. A lot.
Denial at this point.
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You also said infinite space.
Anti-matter would still need space to exist and so would time for that matter. Since both are a property of space. This obviously leads to some funky scenarios in Pokémon but this is currently how it’s treated as said by Ultima in the universe revision thread where destroying space would result in destroying time as a chain-reaction. So if Arceus just created the creation trio at the same time there’s no real contradiction since the only thing I am arguing here is that Giratina (or at least what he represents) couldn’t exist without Palkia and thus Palkia and Dialga still represent substance since there’d be nothing non-spiritual without them.
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- Thread starter
- #265
Im ignoring it because its not an issue just because you say it is. The substance has nothing to do with the scale of time and space being infinite Somebody.
And we very much consider Dialga and Palkia what they are here, so your still wrong either way.
It doesn't, because its an unrelated explanation.
All of this being hype and flowery according to you. And only you.
From you? Yes.
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No offense Ant, but it was really unnecessary.
4 staff members already agreed against just 1 opposing, the change should've already been applied to now.
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Greenshifter
Yeah, just tired of writing the same phrase over and over again, I could edit it in if you want.
It's pretty clear by how Giratina is written to be independent of Palkia that anti-matter's nature on relying on space isn't important to the creation trio. It'd be like saying Palkia is stronger than Dialga because a black hole bends time.
Professor
We don't upgrade characters on hype and that's final. We do not consider Palkia and Dialga as representative / masters of substance. The very idea of it is contradicted by Giratina.
And everyone you guys conveniently ignored. I mean, it'd be less blatant if you at least wrote down the opposition too.
Sytrm
Here's a warning for lying. There are more staff disagreeing, like I said before. Also noticed Efic has been liking my posts, but I'll let him speak for himself.
Yeah, just tired of writing the same phrase over and over again, I could edit it in if you want.
It's pretty clear by how Giratina is written to be independent of Palkia that anti-matter's nature on relying on space isn't important to the creation trio. It'd be like saying Palkia is stronger than Dialga because a black hole bends time.
Professor
We don't upgrade characters on hype and that's final. We do not consider Palkia and Dialga as representative / masters of substance. The very idea of it is contradicted by Giratina.
And everyone you guys conveniently ignored. I mean, it'd be less blatant if you at least wrote down the opposition too.
Sytrm
Here's a warning for lying. There are more staff disagreeing, like I said before. Also noticed Efic has been liking my posts, but I'll let him speak for himself.
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But they are on the profiles lmfao, you even agreed with it
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It's on their pages? Not sure if that's a counterargument, though I guess its noteworthy.
I agreed to it? Remind me, sorry I've forgotten.
I agreed to it? Remind me, sorry I've forgotten.
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- #270
Good thing its not hype. And isn't hype just because you say so.
We very much do so. If you disagree, get it done in a CRT, otherwise its meaningless here.
Despite the fact that's very obvious they are and do.
You've been here long enough to know disagreeing votes don't matter when they don't have any reasoning behind them. Which is what we're facing here other than you.
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You did here on the second point, plus all what I said before
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I'm fine with "Likely 2-A" tbh
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No, lol. You literally said you agreed. I did tell you to refresh your memory
What you've done here is the very definition of taking something out of context. No it isn't. Stitching sentences together to misrepresent the original meanings is completely and utterly unacceptable and palpable if I might add.
No I mean fake feats. Feats that do not exist.
Prove it.
There is no evidence. A completely unrelated conversation about parallel universes cannot be taken as evidence about the meaning of the words "infinite space" on an inscription halfway across the world. Why do you think that I've been asking you to give me a single source where these two phrases have ever been used together?
Unrelated trite. The point was that you made the illogical argument that sounded as if the existence of the multiverse depended on whether or not it had been described on a rock. I was merely correcting that statement.
So what? So the existence of the multiverse doesn't depend on whether or not "infinite space" refers to an infinite multiverse or not, thereby invalidating that line of reasoning.
It really really does. We can follow your line of reasoning and jump to any number of faulty conclusions.
You are yet to prove that it does. You have attempted to do so through your "the multiverse would not exist if the rock isn't referring to parallel universes" interpretation and I have utterly debunked that.
Either the statements support a given interpretation or they don't. Anything else is speculative at best. In short, you are still describing fan-fiction.
I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean.
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Professor
Ignore my reasoning instead of tackling them, it shows the validity of the claims.
This is a CRT... Dialga and Palkia are very obviously not the masters of all substance, Giratina isn't subservient to them and isn't an entire part of its mythology that its in opposition most of the time?
Which conviently, is everyone but those who agree with you. Nvm the fact that most were FRAs anyways.
Styrm
That was in response to what you said: "Dialga and Palkia are in short accepted as being the representation of Space and Time of the Pokémon reality." not the other.
Ignore my reasoning instead of tackling them, it shows the validity of the claims.
This is a CRT... Dialga and Palkia are very obviously not the masters of all substance, Giratina isn't subservient to them and isn't an entire part of its mythology that its in opposition most of the time?
Which conviently, is everyone but those who agree with you. Nvm the fact that most were FRAs anyways.
Styrm
That was in response to what you said: "Dialga and Palkia are in short accepted as being the representation of Space and Time of the Pokémon reality." not the other.
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This is irrelevant when we know that physically anti-matter is reliant on Palkia to exist. So them being masters of substance is not contradicted by Giratina existing, since Giratina couldn’t exist without them.
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Anti-matter doesn't rely on Palkia, heck when matter and anti-matter touch they annihilate each other so I'm not sure where this comes from. Not to mention, Giratina exists in a realm without time and space already (Although this might have gotten rejected, I don't remember honestly) so the dependency argument is proven wrong in-verse as well.
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Issue is that on the profiles they are
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Well, I said as "possibly".
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Space =/= parallel universes. It is absurd to argue that every time someone uses the word space in reference to pokemon, they mean parallel universes. The statements in which you provided that mention space, make no sense when you replace space with parallel universes.
"decided that ‘ultimate’ was the theme in the beginning. I set myself a task to pursue what was the ‘ultimate’ for Pokemon games, and started to act on this theme when making the games. When I asked myself what is ‘ultimate,’ I immediately knew I wanted to improve the level of communication, which is a core element of Pokemon games. In the games, players receive the Pokedex and start collecting Pokemon, which you need to do in order to trade with others. At the time of Ruby & Sapphire, people could trade their Pokemon with someone close by, but not with anyone overseas. I really wanted to do something about this. And that’s why I came up with the Global Trade Station (GTS). That’s what my goal was in the beginning — to create a user network. I want users to be able to connect to the world. That’s the ultimate style of trading for Pokemon. That was the goal. The key element was to create the storyline around the Pokemon in Sinnoh mythology. The relationship between all these Pokemon is the key element. I wanted to express the importance of the balance between substance — Dialga, the ruler of Time, and Palkia, the ruler of Parallel Universes — and spirit — Uxie, Mesprit, Azelf. If the substance becomes too large, the balance of the spirit collapses. I wanted Dialga and Palkia to become counterparts for a sense of balance. Infinite time and infinite Parallel Universes— that to me is the ‘ultimate.'"
"...Ah, hello. You’re here to read, too? Books are wonderful things. The thoughts of people written in books stretch beyond time and parallel universes. I was just reading a collection of letters written by an artist long ago. More precisely, they were written to the artist's younger brother. 'The stars above tantalize from across infinite parallel universes. Feeling their gaze from so far away, I am charmed again by life.' The artist must have come to a conclusion seeing the night sky... It's an affirmation of life. It's very moving. I imagine we'll see each other again at the Pokémon League. Take care."
"Prepare to blast through the atmosphere! When you play with an Infinite Parallel universes theme deck, the fantastic powers of the cosmos are at your command! Palkia's Transback attack knocks an opponent's forces off the battlefield—making it almost impossible to put together an offensive against you! And, once you've silenced your opposition, Exploud will rip parallel universes apart with its Ambient Noise attack that blasts them out into nothingness!"
Is Exploud going to get a 2-A rating too? Or is space in that sentence means parallel universe but space in the next one just means regular space.
I can't argue a negative. This is the equivalent of saying the franchise doesn't say the reflection cave doesn't not have a infinite chain of universes. It also doesn't not say that the refelction cave universes are closed finite loop.
I however did argue that the reflection cave is finite in size and therefore cannot hold an infinite amount of portals. There's no evidence to suggest this finite object can hold infinite objects. Especially since the characters have travelled through them, passing countless portals on their way through it.
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Well, it doesn't change much between likely and possibly (tho I prefer likely), but even possibly can go tbh
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