2-A Pokemon Upgrade Revival: The Time Has Come

[StrymULTRA]

But even then, if space = parallel universes gets rejected, and is just the physical universe, it would still mean 2-A as an infinite universe with MWI makes infinite possibilities, and thus, universes.

 

[SamanPatou]

Isn't the anime the only thing that alludes to parallel universes existing for every single possibility?
I technically have no problems in thinking it, but to make it formal I'd personally like something more explicit, but I guess it could technically work, even depending on what others propose.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Isn't the anime the only thing that alludes to parallel universes existing for every single possibility?
I technically have no problems in thinking it, but to make it formal I'd personally like something more explicit, but I guess it could technically work, even depending on what others propose.

I'm pretty sure that no one rejected it being MWI, just pointed out to what infinite space means.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Isn't the anime the only thing that alludes to parallel universes existing for every single possibility?

Again Saman, did you read the blog? I give all of the evidence and explanation of it in the blog. The anime isn't the only support as the games support it as well.

 

[Dragopentling]

Already read through the blog myself a while ago thanks to Kukui sharing it to me via a DM a few days ago. I pretty much agree with everything there, due to the added info needed and the refuttal of possible debunks also listed. If this 2-A evidence isn't immensely blatant and just considered vague due to "reasons, reasons", I dunno what to think, then.

 

[SomebodyData]

Strym

I repeated several times now how its flowery language based on the consistent usage of the word 'Ultimate' while Masuda regularly referred it back to his vision of creating the ultimate pokemon game.

I see. Again, not a problem, as I completely agree. I'm just pointing out they're not the sole representations of substance.

Again, same paragraph and the same topic, it's both in reference of creating the ultimate pokemon game.

 

[SamanPatou]

I did read it, the games support the existence of parallel worlds for an undefined number of possibilities, not for every single possibility in existence.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I read it, the games support the existence of parallel worlds for an undefined number of possibilities, not for every single possibility in existence.

Thats nitpicking. The games support different possibilities being different parallel universes, as does the anime. And said universes have arguments for being infinite and growing.

This is using everything but the word "possibility" stamped onto it.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Agreeing:

30 Non-staff: (Rikimarox2, Adam_Warlock69, Pink999999, Ottavio, Oleggator, Zencha9, GohanBlanko, The_Axiom_of_Virgo, Starsprite53, GlaceonGamez471, Asriel77, Lord_JJJ, Greenshifter, Greatlskander, Shmooply, ShadowWarrior, Planck69, Psychomaster35, Crimson_Shadow101, StrymULTRA, ShadowGamerOmega, Bobsican, Half_Shiny, TheQuirkyBoy, Rikimarox2, PlozAlcachaz, Sadistic_Sleuth, theultimate5105, deonment, Hasty12345)

2 Staff (DarkDragonmedus, KieranH10)

In total: 32 in favor.

If there are 2 Staff who agree with this then I don't see why the changes can't be applied now

 

[StrymULTRA]

I read it, the games support the existence of parallel worlds for an undefined number of possibilities, not for every single possibility in existence.

That's pretty much an assumption tho, as you'd normally assume that all the possibilities are there since it kinda makes the timelines split for any possible outcome that could've happen, literally nothing points to otherwise.

@SomebodyData if he was talking about just mechanics, he wouldn't point out the physionomy of space-time lol

 

[SomebodyData]

Saman ain't nitpicking, just pointing out the largest interpretation is being used instead of the conservative one that we'd usually use in other verses.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Again, same paragraph and the same topic, it's both in reference of creating the ultimate pokemon game.

And once again, that point doesn't matter here Somebody. The paragraph speaks for both the makeup of the games mechanics and the makeup of the games lore.

We need no more than that to say this is literal.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Saman ain't nitpicking, just pointing out the largest interpretation is being used instead of the conservative one that we'd usually use in other verses.

Said conservative option that doesn't fit here and is based on incredulity for the sake of it.

 

[SamanPatou]

I know that it is nitpicking, I even said it, but that's what makes the difference between an undefined, giant number and true infinity.
It's kinda of an assumption because nothing proves or disproves it, I personally require more clear evidences, since this is a big change, but I'm not against it.

And mine it's not incredulity, I even said I'm fine with the tier, I just want to be extra sure, as it's not impossible to have universes for trillions of billions of possibilities rather than every single one.

 

[SomebodyData]

Styrm

Last time I'm saying this: He's talking about the theme of ultimate and how it relates with the game, he touched mechanics first sure, but both halves still revolve around the theme of ultimate.

Professor

If the second half is supposed to be taken as absolute literal unlike the first, it would be a different paragraph.

"The paragraph speaks for both the makeup of the games mechanics and the makeup of the games lore." In relation to the game's theme of 'ultimate'. < This is the part that keeps getting avoided.

 

[Greenshifter]

I repeated several times now how its flowery language based on the consistent usage of the word 'Ultimate' while Masuda regularly referred it back to his vision of creating the ultimate pokemon game.

I see. Again, not a problem, as I completely agree. I'm just pointing out they're not the sole representations of substance.

Again, same paragraph and the same topic, it's both in reference of creating the ultimate pokemon game.

Let’s look at this in reverse. If space and time were finite then it wouldn’t really fit with his vision of ultimate, it’s clear he wants to go for the biggest and baddest stuff possible. The only thing to accomplish that when it comes to space and time itself would be to make it infinite.

Even if they weren’t the sole representations of substance, your original argument was that they weren’t the representations of substance at all and that it was proof for flowery language. You also didn’t address any of my arguments regarding the matter where I point out that everything non-spiritual would be a part of Palkia and Dialga aka space and time aka substance anyways.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I know that it is nitpicking, I even said it, but that's what makes the difference between an undefined, giant number and true infinity.
It's kinda of an assumption because nothing proves or disproves it, I personally require more clear evidences, since this is a big change, but I'm not against it.

Of course we aren't saying its the perfect evidence. Its always more preferable to have as much transparency and confirmation as possible, but falling short of one small bit doesn't throw everything out when we have everything but the specific word stamped in.

Styrm

Last time I'm saying this: He's talking about the theme of ultimate and how it relates with the game, he touched mechanics first sure, but both halves still revolve around the theme of ultimate.

Professor

If the second half is supposed to be taken as absolute literal unlike the first, it would be a different paragraph.

Extreme nitpicking here

"The paragraph speaks for both the makeup of the games mechanics and the makeup of the games lore." In relation to the game's theme of 'ultimate'. < This is the part that keeps getting avoided.

Because it literally doesn't matter here Somebody.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I know that it is nitpicking, I even said it, but that's what makes the difference between an undefined, giant number and true infinity.
It's kinda of an assumption because nothing proves or disproves it, I personally require more clear evidences, since this is a big change, but I'm not against it.

It was stated that there are countless worlds in USUM (aka the minimum to assume the full usage of MWI), and the Rainbow Rocket arc points at any possibility being an universe.

And countless and infinite are interchangable if context allows it.

 

[M2B3]

More like saying my argument doesn't exist isn't an argument in and of itself for you. Read better please.

Refresh your memory better please. By the time that your "argument" had been called non-existent it had already been debunked.

Sorry but that's not proving anything. Saying its fan fiction aint evidence.

Proving it's fan fiction by correctly assessing that several different scans are being mixed up together and thereby taken out of context, however, is.

And no feats are being made up here. Nothing is being fabricated, and we very much do so.

Yes there are. A false interpretation of collectively misrepresented statements is being peddled here. That very much qualifies as being in the realm of fabrication.

and we very much do so.

The last guy that I personally saw provide fake feats is still permanently banned.

It very much does mean that, because that is the only way it fits in the context of the series you are actively trying to speak about.

It does not whatsoever. The "expanding space" interpretation works perfectly fine as is. It's literally Palkia described as space and its' function to expand.

If space expanding doesn't refer to number, then there's no multiverse

Do you... genuinely fail to understand how inane this statement is? The notion that the existence of a literal multiverse is dependent on whether or not it is being described on a giant rock is... laughable. Did you already forget your own argumentation about game cartridges and gen to gen pokemon transferring? The multiverse exist regardless of whether or not this little rock exists. The multiverse exist regardless of whether or not the creation myth exists.

See above. It's not, its referring to the number of universes as explained before.

At no point does it do that. Your proof that it does comes from entirely unrelated conversation led by entirely different people in entirely different places. They literally cannot speak for whoever wrote the inscription on those rocks EVEN if the context of their conversations had been those specific rocks or the creation myth for that matter. And it absolutely isn't that anyways.

I actually did, and you're well aware that once you actually accept the answer, your counter argument immediately falls.

Then you should have no problem answering again? Yes, or no. Just that please.

 

[SamanPatou]

Of course we aren't saying its the perfect evidence. Its always more preferable to have as much transparency and confirmation as possible, but falling short of one small bit doesn't throw everything out when we have everything but the specific word stamped in.

Now that I think of it, "likely/possibly" exist, so personally I think adding one of them would be the best option, as we aren't totally sure.
Same for the countless thing, they may mean the same thing depending on the context, but we still aren't sure. I'm in favor of possibly/likely, though.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Literally when have we never used different groups of supporting evidence from the same medium to support an upgrade? This isn't new at all.

And saying "it just isn't good enough evidence" isn't a counter argument.

Except this is a franchise with multiple writers, and designers and teams, and people working on it. You're not pulling evidence from a single source with the same creative teams behind it. You're taking information from multiple different sources to support something that's never once stated outright in any of these mediums.

My argument wasn't that "it's just isn't good enough" my argument is that your supporting evidence is circumstantial.

We don't need an outright infinite universes statement to get 2-A, we've literally never needed something that specific here and I ask that you show me where this is a case anywhere on this site.

What verses have 2-A ratings without an outright statement or showing of infinite universes?

Also my argument isn't bullshit. You need to prove that when these people and mediums mentioned infinite space that they were talking about specifically infinite universes. Right now you're just saying that because they said space is infinite, that it means that the multiverse must be infinite as well.

Objectively wrong as the blog outright explains. What they state literally happens in the opposite game. Its not idealistic at all.

It's a common trope in fiction and in real life when people say, "maybe in another space or time or maybe in another world, things will be different" And even let's say they're specifically talking about parallel worlds, that statement has nothing to say those parallel worlds are infinite

Which is unfounded speculation as the blog, once again, already explains.

Your speculation blog is debunking an argument that the reflection cave creates new universe. That's not what I said. I said there is no statement or outright showing that the reflection cave links to infinite universes or that there is a chain of infinite universes. That is also an unfounded speculation.

Location on a finite planet doesen't remotely make sense as it links to another universe.
Also you're talking like it was stated that it ends in a loop, while nothing implied so, but instead, points more out to more and more universes without an end.

It's not stated that it ends in a loop. That's true. It's also true that it's not stated that it's infinite chain of universes or it links to an infinite amount of universes.

 

[Dragopentling]

Tbh, if Arceus and the creation trio are given evidence to fully transcend the very multiverses they "govern", I see possible discussion for Low 1-C, but I'll digress. Anyways, "likely/possibly 2-A" is being too incredulous at this point with everything regarding the explanations and aspects of "infinity" and such.

 

[SomebodyData]

Professor

A nitpick wouldn't be literally basic English / Writing. Your entire point is that despite being part of the same paragraph, one half is figurative and flowery and the other half (ironically, the creative part) is literal and technical.

It matters because it shows the paragraph is flowery and supposed to be how Masuda sees the game. With that him saying infinite time and space becomes a lot less describing 39.53 million multiverses and more as just a hype statement.

Greenshifter

Fair, though what he considers ultimate could just be 'regular' infinite space and time ala Low 2-C or a regular 2-A.

Issue is that Anti-Matter goes against Dialga and Palkia being all of substance. The fact is, Masuda was clearly hyping them up with the substance vs spirituality dichotomy, why would the next sentence not also be part of that?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Anti-Matter can’t exist without space. You have a point on how Giratina would fit into this but even his distortion world would be made by Palkia if I’m not mistaken. Creation as a concept is not part of substance.

Isn't there a statement that says Giratina's dimension is also part of himself? How can Palkia create his distortion world, when the distortion world is Giratina, and Giratina was created by Arceus?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Now that I think of it, "likely/possibly" exist, so personally I think adding one of them would be the best option, as we aren't totally sure.
Same for the countless thing, they may mean the same thing depending on the context, but we still aren't sure. I'm in favor of possibly/likely, though.

It was pretty much argued from Eficiente too, making 4 staff members agreeing.

This would upgrade the levels of 2-B as well and put a "likely High 3-A" to Necrozma and whoever scales from it.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Refresh your memory better please. By the time that your "argument" had been called non-existent it had already been debunked.

And I countered the frail "debunk".

Proving it's fan fiction by correctly assessing that several different scans are being mixed up together and thereby taken out of context, however, is.

It's not when they aren't being taken out of context and are very clear with what they mean. And pulling different supporting evidences together to form an arugment is 1000% allowed. Thats the basics to debating.

Yes there are. A false interpretation of collectively misrepresented statements is being peddled here. That very much qualifies as being in the realm of fabrication.

It isn't when nothing is being misinterpreted, or fabricated. That is a you problem.

The last guy that I personally saw provide fake feats is still permanently banned.

You mean using fake scans, which none of this here is the case.

It does not whatsoever. The "expanding space" interpretation works perfectly fine as is. It's literally Palkia through space and its' function to expand.

Which refers to the number of universes as Space, from the given evidence, equates to the number of universes. And fits with the context of the series' cosmology being a multiverse.

Do you... genuinely fail to understand how inane this statement is? The notion that the existence of a literal multiverse is dependent on whether or not it is being described on a giant rock is... laughable.

It isn't because its part of the lore, which is, you know, perfectly viable evidence here.

Did you already forget your own argumentation about game cartridges and gen to gen pokemon transferring? The multiverse exist regardless of whether or not this little rock exists. The multiverse exist regardless of whether or not the creation myth exists.

Okay? So what? This is another part of said evidence that alludes to this. This is not hard to understand.

At no point does it do that. Your proof that it does comes from entirely unrelated conversation led by entirely different people in entirely different places. They literally cannot speak for whoever wrote the inscription on those rocks EVEN if the context of their conversations had been those specific rocks or the creation myth for that matter. And it absolutely isn't that anyways.

And again, that doesn't matter, when this is all evidence that's referring to the same thing. Something can be considered more than one thing. Space can be considered more than x or more than y of what's given from each statement.

Simple as that.

Then you should have no problem answering again? Yes, or no. Just that please.

You don't dictate what evidence is what.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Now that I think of it, "likely/possibly" exist, so personally I think adding one of them would be the best option, as we aren't totally sure.
Same for the countless thing, they may mean the same thing depending on the context, but we still aren't sure. I'm in favor of possibly/likely, though.

While im not opposed to a likely, we don't need that here when we have several other supporting evidence that we are perfectly 100% allowed to pull from that makes this extremely blatant all together.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Tbh my main goal was to get just 2-A accepted, but even a "likely 2-A" is fine from me. But if we can argue full 2-A is even better, but seems like a "Xenoblade-ish situation" as is going to be treated.

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

Yeah, likely 2-A is a far safer route.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Should I make a blog covering all that was accepted?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Except this is a franchise with multiple writers, and designers and teams, and people working on it. You're not pulling evidence from a single source with the same creative teams behind it. You're taking information from multiple different sources to support something that's never once stated outright in any of these mediums.

Which doesn't matter because each of these said sources are 100% allowed to be used for the specific verse in question here. As it has been for literally years.

Again, this is nothing new.

My argument wasn't that "it's just isn't good enough" my argument is that your supporting evidence is circumstantial.

Nothing makes it circumstantial.

What verses have 2-A ratings without an outright statement or showing of infinite universes?

Verses that have actual context supplied for them to make up for an outright statement you want spoon-fed to you? Its as I said to Saman. Something falling short of one thing doesn't mean it doesn't qualify.

And our standards don't work like this either where an outright "X statement" is needed to get to the tier in the first place.

Also my argument isn't bullshit. You need to prove that when these people and mediums mentioned infinite space that they were talking about specifically infinite universes. Right now you're just saying that because they said space is infinite, that it means that the multiverse must be infinite as well.

That is not at all what im saying and its still laughable that this isn't clear on what the argument is.

We have given proof that this means infinite universes because space and time, in this context, refers to parallel universes. Said space and time that is infinite. Which brings us to infinite universes. That brings us to 2-A.

So yes, your point here is bullshit. Context supports this being 2-A.

It's a common trope in fiction and in real life when people say, "maybe in another space or time or maybe in another world, things will be different" And even let's say they're specifically talking about parallel worlds, that statement has nothing to say those parallel worlds are infinite.

Yes, which is why its a supporting point and not the main basis obviously.

Your speculation blog is debunking an argument that the reflection cave creates new universe. That's not what I said. I said there is no statement or outright showing that the reflection cave links to infinite universes or that there is a chain of infinite universes. That is also an unfounded speculation.

Yes and my blog also gives an explanation for why it would be infinite. Read it again.

It's not stated that it ends in a loop. That's true. It's also true that it's not stated that it's infinite chain of universes or it links to an infinite amount of universes.

Yes, which is why we go with what the material itself suggests more. And the worlds all being different from each other supports more than its infinite than magically ending in a looped chain.

Even then, this is again a supporting point and not the main basis.

 

[Antvasima]

What are the summarised staff conclusions here?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Professor

A nitpick wouldn't be literally basic English / Writing. Your entire point is that despite being part of the same paragraph, one half is figurative and flowery and the other half (ironically, the creative part) is literal and technical.

Let me correct you. My entire point isn't that anything in this statement is flowery in the first place.

My entire point is that one half is speaking about the mechanic aspect of the game and how its designed, and the other speaks about the storyline and lore of the game. Which is very very obviously the case when Masuda mentions the Sinnoh mythology surrounding the god tiers. About Dialga and Palkia being counterparts, their relationship to the Lake Trio, and the scale of time and space.

It matters because it shows the paragraph is flowery and supposed to be how Masuda sees the game. With that him saying infinite time and space becomes a lot less describing 39.53 million multiverses and more as just a hype statement.

It doesn't matter because his point on infinite time and infinite space is being spoken from a lore point of view, specifically about the lore, and how it ties the storyline together as said storyline is centered around the lore.

None of that is flowery, nothing in the statement is flowery.

 

[StrymULTRA]

What are the summarised staff conclusions here?

• Pokémon Physical universes are likely of infinite size
• Because of this, Pokémon MWI generates an infinite amount of universes, making a "likely 2-A" rating legit
• The amount of multiverses are 39.53 millions, each with countless/infinite universes
• 2-Bs are gonna be "2-B, likely 2-A" and 4-Bs instead are gonna be "4-B, likely High 3-A"

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

What are the summarised staff conclusions here?

DarkDragonMedus, Kieranh10, and Sanman at least support the upgrades so far.

 

[StrymULTRA]

DarkDragonMedus, Kieranh10, and Sanman at least support the upgrades so far.

Eficiente supports the "likely 2-A" as well

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

• Pokémon Physical universes are likely of infinite size
• Because of this, Pokémon MWI generates an infinite amount of universes, making a "likely 2-A" rating legit
• The amount of multiverses are 39.53 millions, each with countless/infinite universes
• 2-Bs are gonna be "2-B, likely 2-A" and 4-Bs instead are gonna be "4-B, likely High 3-A"

The number of universes as well, as that still holds.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The number of universes as well, as that still holds.

Yeah, is mainly coz of the size of physical universe in short

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if four staff members have accepted this, it is probably fine to apply, but I could ask more Pokemon supporters among the staff to come here if you wish.

 

[Greenshifter]

Fair, though what he considers ultimate could just be 'regular' infinite space and time ala Low 2-C or a regular 2-A.

That is a possibility, though if Pokémon does actually function via MWI then that low 2-C grants a 2-A for the entire multiverse, I think you can agree with that right? In fact in this specific scenario it’d be a bigger assumption to say both the universe is infinite and as a consequence the multiverse, than it is to say the multiverse is just infinite.

Issue is that Anti-Matter goes against Dialga and Palkia being all of substance. The fact is, Masuda was clearly hyping them up with the substance vs spirituality dichotomy, why would the next sentence not also be part of that?

I wouldn’t consider it hyping them up since them being space and time is a commonly known fact at this point. And even if he did, he’d be hyping them up by literally making space and time infinite rather than overstating their being.

Isn't there a statement that says Giratina's dimension is also part of himself? How can Palkia create his distortion world, when the distortion world is Giratina, and Giratina was created by Arceus?

I’d assume that Palkia created the space that Giratina’s dimension occupies, that way there’s no contradiction.

Edit: I quoted the wrong guy with the right quote... somehow