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2-A Pokemon Upgrade Revival: The Time Has Come

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Professor

You're telling me, you don't see how the flowery language?
No, because this said "flowery language" only exists in the first place when you try connecting dots that aren't actually connected.
I mean, the entire paragraph from beginning to end is literally about what he wanted the game to come across as, this seems more like denial by the majority than anything.
And that's a very damning understatement when this said paragraph isn't just speaking about the game, but the literal storyline and lore that is tied up into it.
 
OP has it a little bit backwards. It's his interpretation that is """flowery""", not the actual concrete meaning of infinite space = actual infinite space.
Excuse me?
With that said, not a single instance of usage of the word space, as presented in the google doc, is even remotely referring to parallel universes whatsoever.
Palkia, the being who represents space and is the space of the multiverse, is the creator of parallel universes. Self-explanatory.

Space, which is also considered ever-expanding dimensions, also refers to parallel universes. And the original story backs this up.

So to put it shortly, you're extremely wrong on this point.
In fact, in some of the cases provided it's not even remotely dubious yet they are misrepresented to mean parallel universes instead anyways.
"The creator of parallel universes"

Misrepresented

Please tell me this is a joke.
 
He acknowledges their actual roles and puts them in context within the themes Strym, if you're not being sarcastic with your response(?) Not to mention the rest of the paragraph is also just him talking about the theme he focused on when developing the game.
I miss how's that relevant, as he's being specific on that detail.
 
With that said, not a single instance of usage of the word space, as presented in the google doc, is even remotely referring to parallel universes whatsoever. In fact, in some of the cases provided it's not even remotely dubious yet they are misrepresented to mean parallel universes instead anyways.
You serious? There are like 3 sources that say that Space = All parallel Universes
 
Professor

Most of your interpretation has been connecting dots that aren't actually connected- I mean, you somehow connected Masuda's statement to a random TCG card or attributing infinite time and space to, and I quote: "39.53 millions of multiverses".

The fact that it's still the same paragraph shows its still part of the "ultimate" theme discussion; in writing, you would immediately separate them into two paragraphs if it was intended to not be flowery like the beginning of the paragraph.

Styrm

Saying "Infinite time and infinite space — that to me is the ‘ultimate." is specific yeah, specific on how he applies the "ultimate" theme to his work on Gen 4.
 
Professor

Most of your interpretation has been connecting dots that aren't actually connected- I mean, you somehow connected Masuda's statement to a random TCG card or attributing infinite time and space to, and I quote: "39.53 millions of multiverses".

The fact that it's still the same paragraph shows its still part of the "ultimate" theme discussion; in writing, you would immediately separate them into two paragraphs if it was intended to not be flowery like the beginning of the paragraph.

Styrm

Saying "Infinite time and infinite space — that to me is the ‘ultimate." is specific yeah, specific on how he applies the "ultimate" theme to his work on Gen 4.
If you read well the last part, he's speaking of their relationship in the verse.
 
Professor

Most of your interpretation has been connecting dots that aren't actually connected- I mean, you somehow connected Masuda's statement to a random TCG card or attributing infinite time and space to, and I quote: "39.53 millions of multiverses".
Right because when the quote actually speaks about the verse's lore and storyline, that is a dot I can very much absolutely connect. Or im sorry, instead of lore, we can say "Sinnoh Mythology"

And I quote that term since Masuda outright says said term in said quote. But sure, this totally isn't speaking about the verse's lore at all right?
The fact that it's still the same paragraph shows its still part of the "ultimate" theme discussion; in writing, you would immediately separate them into two paragraphs if it was intended to not be flowery like the beginning of the paragraph.
Or you go the simple route and go with him speaking about both the theme of the game and it's storyline....which is exactly the case presented.
Styrm

Saying "Infinite time and infinite space — that to me is the ‘ultimate." is specific yeah, specific on how he applies the "ultimate" theme to his work on Gen 4.
And this is irrelevant when this is speaking about the makeup of the verse.
 
Strym

Yeah, but again, in relation to how they work within the theme of ultimate.

"The key element was to create the storyline around the Pokemon in Sinnoh mythology. The relationship between all these Pokemon is the key element. I wanted to express the importance of the balance between substance — Dialga, the ruler of Time, and Palkia, the ruler of Space — and spirit — Uxie, Mesprit, Azelf. If the substance becomes too large, the balance of the spirit collapses. I wanted Dialga and Palkia to become counterparts for a sense of balance. Infinite time and infinite space — that to me is the ‘ultimate.'
 
Strym

Yeah, but again, in relation to how they work within the theme of ultimate.

"The key element was to create the storyline around the Pokemon in Sinnoh mythology. The relationship between all these Pokemon is the key element. I wanted to express the importance of the balance between substance — Dialga, the ruler of Time, and Palkia, the ruler of Space — and spirit — Uxie, Mesprit, Azelf. If the substance becomes too large, the balance of the spirit collapses. I wanted Dialga and Palkia to become counterparts for a sense of balance. Infinite time and infinite space — that to me is the ‘ultimate.'
Which again, has absolutely nothing to do with the scale of said time and space. Which he specifies as being infinite.
 
Strym

Yeah, but again, in relation to how they work within the theme of ultimate.

"The key element was to create the storyline around the Pokemon in Sinnoh mythology. The relationship between all these Pokemon is the key element. I wanted to express the importance of the balance between substance — Dialga, the ruler of Time, and Palkia, the ruler of Space — and spirit — Uxie, Mesprit, Azelf. If the substance becomes too large, the balance of the spirit collapses. I wanted Dialga and Palkia to become counterparts for a sense of balance. Infinite time and infinite space — that to me is the ‘ultimate.'
And how's that making that flowery in the 1st place? If you actually read properly the blog, you'd know that is referring to the whole of the parallel universes, since Palkia is the master of space, that is the whole of parallel dimensions as said in lots of myths, Pokedex and Cyrus' studies.
 
Professor

Do you legitimately think that Masuda was referencing a TCG card when he was talking? This is pretty apparently just dots being connected when its very apparent they exist outside each other.

I don't appreciate the strawman; like I've said several times before: the interview is talking about Masuda's work on the game and how he implemented the theme of "ultimate" on everything, from trading to story.

Yes...? That's the point, he's talking about the lore from the perspective of how he tried to implement the theme of ultimate in it.

Irrelevant? That's the exact quote being used to upgrade the verse.
 
"Also WoG can't be flowery if it's supporting things claimed from also a lore fact (Lucian) and an actual description (TCG)" - StrymULTRA

If you meant something else by TCG, then my bad.
 
Flowery language doesn't depend on the context of the verse, since it's not a vs debating term or the like. It's just a language trope, so you have to prove it's not flowery language from within the response itself.
Here we go with the filibustering again.

No, you need a reason for something to be flowery language or figurative. You cannot claim something is illegitimate and not be able to provide why you think it would classify as that. If you take a statement such as "My stomach is like a black hole," you can use the fact that "like" is an indicator of a simile, thus non-literal. Another way of putting this is "Prove that it's not Figurative Language," which is literally asking someone to prove a negative. The onus is on the person saying it's flowery language to actually explain how and why it's not literal.
 
Professor

Do you legitimately think that Masuda was referencing a TCG card when he was talking?
No, what I think he was referencing was the literal lore and mythology of the verse, which he precisely says is the case. What does the TCG have to do with that?
This is pretty apparently just dots being connected when its very apparent they exist outside each other.

I don't appreciate the strawman; like I've said several times before: the interview is talking about Masuda's work on the game and how he implemented the theme of "ultimate" on everything, from trading to story.
And I really don't care what you do or don't appreciate, no offense. The only one who's strawmannirg here is you when the interview is clearly and blatantly speaking beyond the work of the game. It speaks about the storyline and mythology of said game, making it perfectly viable.
Yes...? That's the point, he's talking about the lore from the perspective of how he tried to implement the theme of ultimate in it.
And that changes nothing about the actual point here is. That time and space, per his words, is infinite in scale. Simple as that.
Irrelevant? That's the exact quote being used to upgrade the verse.
Nice job of twisting what I said. What I said is irrelevant is your interpretation of what the quote is referring to.
 
"Also WoG can't be flowery if it's supporting things claimed from also a lore fact (Lucian) and an actual description (TCG)" - StrymULTRA

If you meant something else by TCG, then my bad.
I suggest to clearly take a good read then, because literally most of the stuff you're saying is already countered.
 
No offense SomeBody, but this analysis is really superficial and didn't look well the matter
 
I will just remind everyone to keep this civil and calm.

That said, I find it rather unlikely that the statement is figurative based on how it's framed.
 
Same, but I just found this answer really superficial, because, again, most of the stuff claimed was already covered in the blog and seeing it again isn't really the best thing lol.
 
Excuse me?
It's self-explanatory. The usage of "Infinite space" in the provided paragraph is literal.

Space, which is also considered ever-expanding dimensions, also refers to parallel universes. And the original story backs this up.
It doesn't. The first reference is talking about the property of space to expand. The "dimensions" that are being talked about here aren't parallel universes, it's talking about height, width and depth and their natural expansion. And so is the original creation myth. The other two are references to parallel universes and none of these are mutually exclusive.

You have three different references to Palkia entirely unrelated to one another, each having a different context. You've taken them, and stitched them together like some weird... zombie abomination thing. You might wanna consider changing your name from Prf. Kukui to Dr. Frankestein at this rate lul
"The creator of parallel universes"
I assume you are aware of what quotation marks are used for? Do you see the word space used anywhere in the quote you have provided?
Palkia, the being who represents space and is the space of the multiverse, is the creator of parallel universes. Self-explanatory.
Ad nauseam 2 responses in... wonderful.
 
It's self-explanatory. The usage of "Infinite space" in the provided paragraph is literal.


It doesn't. The first reference is talking about the property of space to expand. The "dimensions" that are being talked about here aren't parallel universes, it's talking about height, width and depth and their natural expansion. And so is the original creation myth. The other two are references to parallel universes and none of these are mutually exclusive.

You have three different references to Palkia entirely unrelated to one another, each having a different context. You've taken them, and stitched them together like some weird... zombie abomination thing. You might wanna consider changing your name from Prf. Kukui to Dr. Frankestein at this rate lul

I assume you are aware of what quotation marks are used for? Do you see the word space used anywhere in the quote you have provided?

Ad nauseam 2 responses in... wonderful.
Another one who didn't read the blog, just calling it Google Doc is pretty much a proof tbf
 
It's self-explanatory. The usage of "Infinite space" in the provided paragraph is literal.
Failing to see what this point is supposed to do other than back up my argument.
It doesn't. The first reference is talking about the property of space to expand. The "dimensions" that are being talked about here aren't parallel universes, it's talking about height, width and depth and their natural expansion. And so is the original creation myth. The other two are references to parallel universes and none of these are mutually exclusive.
Complete head canon that's supported by nothing and ignoring what the scans, for one, outright say. "Parallel universes" blatantly means parallel universes.

And the original creation myth obviously isn't speaking about that either as the verse is very clearly a multiverse.
You have three different references to Palkia entirely unrelated to one another, each having a different context. You've taken them, and stitched them together like some weird... zombie abomination thing. You might wanna consider changing your name from Prf. Kukui to Dr. Frankestein at this rate lul
There isn't any different context to them, they are self-explanatory in what they are talking about. But of course you have to invent head canon in order to have an argument against that.
I assume you are aware of what quotation marks are used for? Do you see the word space used anywhere in the quote you have provided?
Palkia = Space.

Said Palkia's the creator of parallel universes.

This is not hard to grasp.
Ad nauseam 2 responses in... wonderful.
Because they're actually right. So yeah, wonderful.
 
Ploz

"Here we go with the filibustering again."

... I don't even think we've ever met?

You might want to re-read the context of my response before you say something as asinine as that. I've already argued it was flowery language based on the consistent comparison to the theme of ultimate and how the game was designed around it. They were counterarguing it wasn't flowery language using context from the verse when flowery language is dependent on the actual structure of what is said.

Styrm

All you guys said was "that isn't enough evidence" to people like Everything12 and Eficiente, there was no debunking. Which I do agree with, but to then apply it to me when I'm quoting the entire quote back at you guys seems a bit pushing it.

Instead of assuming we didn't read the blog or are superficial, have you considered the possibility that the blog's response isn't enough? If people can shut down entire debates with blogs, we wouldn't have threads to begin with.

It also doesn't help I've already addressed the blog's response by pointing out Masuda was clearly not referencing Lucian specifically or the TCG and it's a stretch to assume so.

Professor

Sorry, I assumed you and Styrm were on the same page on the TCG part since it was referenced in the blog.

And I'd like to stress again, I'm not ignoring that he's talking about the lore. However, in the context that he's explaining everything is tied to the idea of ultimate, it's easy to say he's being flowery with how he describes the lore just as much as his theme; just like for example, we aren't taking Palkia and Dialga to literally represent substance.
 
It's self-explanatory. The usage of "Infinite space" in the provided paragraph is literal.
I mean if this was true then ultra space is infinite. which would be proof for infinite infinite wormholes and so on
 
Plot

"Here we go with the filibustering again."

... I don't even think we've ever met?

You might want to re-read the context of my response before you say something as asinine as that. I've already argued it was flowery language based on the consistent comparison to the theme of ultimate and how the game was designed around it.
Which I countered and said they have absolutely nothing to do with the scale of what time and space is the verse. Period.
Styrm

All you guys said was "that isn't enough evidence" to people like Everything12 and Eficiente, there was no debunking. Which I do agree with, but to then apply it to me when I'm quoting the entire quote back at you guys seems a bit pushing it.
Because what your trying to point out from said quote doesn't debunk anything and is, no offense, literal inventing of points to try and loosen the structure of the evidence.
Instead of assuming we didn't read the blog or are superficial, have you considered the possibility that the blog's response isn't enough? If people can shut down entire debates with blogs, we wouldn't have threads to begin with.
Of course we do, but when the said opposition has to use unconnected dots and unrelated points as the main basis to their counter-argument, it also gives us room to doubt you on whether or not you actually understood the basis of the upgrade's argument in the first place as well.
It also doesn't help I've already addressed the blog's response by pointing out Masuda was clearly not referencing Lucian specifically or the TCG and it's a stretch to assume so.
And this is irrelevant. His quote doesn't need to reference Lucian and the TCG specifically. His quote is referencing the makeup of the verse, which Lucian and the TCG give support to by doing the same thing.

Professor

And I'd like to stress again, I'm not ignoring that he's talking about the lore. However, in the context that he's explaining everything is tied to the idea of ultimate, it's easy to say he's being flowery with how he describes the lore just as much as his theme; just like for example, we aren't taking Palkia and Dialga to literally represent substance.
This is a faulty comparison when the idea of substance and the scale of what time and space are in the lore are unrelated ideas within the same response of what his idea of the ultimate is for the games.
 
It also doesn't help I've already addressed the blog's response by pointing out Masuda was clearly not referencing Lucian specifically or the TCG and it's a stretch to assume so.
Literally how so? There are more Infinite Space statements across the game, Masuda just supports them.
And I'd like to stress again, I'm not ignoring that he's talking about the lore. However, in the context that he's explaining everything is tied to the idea of ultimate, it's easy to say he's being flowery with how he describes the lore just as much as his theme; just like for example
Ofc is the "Ultimate", I mean, he's talking about what makes the Pokémon reality, so how's that flowery at all?

Plus, there's this:

The relationship between all these Pokemon is the key element. I wanted to express the importance of the balance between substance — Dialga, the ruler of Time, and Palkia, the ruler of Space — and spirit — Uxie, Mesprit, Azelf. If the substance becomes too large, the balance of the spirit collapses. I wanted Dialga and Palkia to become counterparts for a sense of balance. Infinite time and infinite space — that to me is the ‘ultimate.'

You can clearly see how's talking about these elements which maintain the reality, so I don't get how's flowery and what else could Masuda point to.
we aren't taking Palkia and Dialga to literally represent substance.
Except that we are when already in Diamond and Pearl Dex entries they're described as the complete masters and origins of said elements.
 
Well then, it seems the main point of contention here is whether or not the statement is literal. Seeing as this back and forth doesn't quite seem like it'll be resolved anytime soon, maybe we should wait for more staff judgement?
 
Failing to see what this point is supposed to do other than back up my argument.
Your argument doesn't exist.

Complete head canon that's supported by nothing and ignoring what the scans, for one, outright say. "Parallel universes" blatantly means parallel universes.
The exact opposite. Your interpretation is the head-canon here. It more closely resembles fan-fiction actually. Taking together different sentences from different conversations in different stories and mashing them all together as if that's in any way logical. You're the one ignoring the scans and trying to turn into in a scan (singular). The source is perfectly clear on this. Expanding space. Period.

And the original creation myth obviously isn't speaking about that either as the verse is very clearly a multiverse.
It's absolutely speaking about that. The fact that Pokemon is a mutiverse has no bearing on it at all.
Palkia = Space.

Said Palkia's the creator of parallel universes.

This is not hard to grasp.
You failed to answer the question so it must be. I'll ask again, do you see the word space used anywhere in the quote you have provided? Simple yes or no question.
 
The exact opposite. Your interpretation is the head-canon here. It more closely resembles fan-fiction actually. Taking together different sentences from different conversations in different stories and mashing them all together as if that's in any way logical. You're the one ignoring the scans and trying to turn into in a scan (singular).
Literally all the cosmology blogs work like that.
The source if perfectly clear on this. Expanding space. Period.
If only you read it, you'd know that it can fit the already infinite amount of timelines increasing even more, as bigger infinities are a thing.
You failed to answer the question so it must be. I'll ask again, do you see the word space used anywhere in the quote you have provided? Simple yes or no question.
I mean, there are like 4 links which say that.
 
Your argument doesn't exist.
And that's not an argument.
The exact opposite. Your interpretation is the head-canon here. It more closely resembles fan-fiction actually.
Prove it then.
Taking together different sentences from different conversations in different stories and mashing them all together as if that's in any way logical.
It is exactly logical when they all support the overall main point, which is something we do for literally every franchise that has a page on this site.
You're the one ignoring the scans and trying to turn into in a scan (singular). The source if perfectly clear on this. Expanding space. Period.
Which refers to parallel universes. Period.
It's absolutely speaking about that. The fact that Pokemon is a mutiverse has no bearing on that at all.
It does, because the interpretation you bring conflicts with that. The verse is obviously not one large universe, it is a multiverse, so "Space expanding" very clearly means the numerical amount of universes.
You failed to answer the question so it must be.
And I answered. You choosing to not accept is a you problem.
 
I’m pretty sure they are literally representing the substance of the multiverse.
^
They are Type 3 abstracts (before said type was nuked) as they represent these concepts, heck, just seeing their classification on the profile makes it clear.
 
Professor

My response to Ploz has nothing to do with the validity of one point or another, just explaining where the argument was at.

"Inventing points"... like quoting the paragraph back? Again, I have only really done that and shower doubt upon how Lucian and the TCG connect to Masuda's response, which is pretty tame and mostly reliant on what you guys already used.

Again, what dots are we connecting that aren't there? If you think that referencing the rest of the paragraph you got your quote from counts, then I have to point out this is basic paragraph structuring. It's even worse considering again, Lucian and TCG are being connected to Masuda's statement somehow and infinite space and time somehow equating to millions of infinite multiverses.

Which is not irrelevant when your counterargument according to your blog was Lucian and the TCG in the first place. And it confuses how you can refer to your blog's point as irrelevant when that's the response everyone keeps telling me to read.

Again, how on Earth are they irrelevant when they're part of the same paragraph discussing the same topic of ultimate on how Masada designed the Pokemon game.

Styrm

That's not really a response to how Lucian's statement and the TCG connect, though.

Just to clarify, are you saying Masuda's speel about making the game focused on the idea of "ultimate" isn't flowery to you?

Dialga and Palkia are clearly not the masters of substance itself; time and space, sure, but substance would be more of something for Arceus.
 
Literally all the cosmology blogs work like that.
No they don't. There might be others who tailor sentences to their advantage in this manner (which I personally doubt since this is clearly very blatant and extremely counter-productive), and if there are they are just as wrong as this one.
If only you read it, you'd know that it can fit the already infinite amount of timelines increasing even more, as bigger infinities are a thing.
A completely unrelated, and unsubstantiated, response to what I had posted. The point remains.

I mean, there are like 4 links which say that.
None. Zilch. Nada. All of the sources are separate and they all have their own context.
 
That's not really a response to how Lucian's statement and the TCG connect, though.
What are you even talking about? They, in the same way they were describing how space is.
Just to clarify, are you saying Masuda's speel about making the game focused on the idea of "ultimate" isn't flowery to you?
Definitely, as there's not a reason why it should. There are literally no other meanings about how Space can be.
Dialga and Palkia are clearly not the masters of substance itself; time and space, sure, but substance would be more of something for Arceus.
That's absolutely headcanon as Arceus isn't even mentioned in the interview.
 
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