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1-A and Large Size
- Thread starter KingPin0422
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- large size
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We may not be able to determine actual size, but at the very least it should be possible to determine that one is "larger" than others in some cases. For example, the Gods of Cyberspace would be larger than the other beings in the meta world since they encompass all information. Encompassment can at the very least by used to deduce something most similar to size
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What Sera and Iapetus say is fact. Some 1-As are larger than others factually in their own series.
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This is basically the same thing as some Masadaverse characters who are 1-A being faster than eachother or rewinding 1-A time. It folds the brain in on itself, but it exists within these fictions
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Why did you ignore the whole rest of the thread discussion the moment Kep disagreed?Antvasima said:
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The point here is that while 1-As are beyond definitions of "Size" as we know them, there can still be metaphysical analogues to Size which can apply to them.
Examples of this include Yog-Sothoth encompassing all Outer Gods and holding them as tiny specks of its being, and really any verse with 1-A Hierarchies. Removing Type 11 Large Size just because "it is not really Size but an analogue and blah blah" is just arguing semantics and thus invalid.
Examples of this include Yog-Sothoth encompassing all Outer Gods and holding them as tiny specks of its being, and really any verse with 1-A Hierarchies. Removing Type 11 Large Size just because "it is not really Size but an analogue and blah blah" is just arguing semantics and thus invalid.
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There being analogues of size which only apply within 1-A doesn't really matter for Type 11 Large Size. Every type on that list is numbered where it is because it's larger than the type below it, calling it type 11 implies that 1-As are larger than type 10 large size beings, when "size" and "larger" don't even apply to 1-As.
Or in short, some 1-As being larger than other 1-As through metaphysical analogues doesn't mean that 1-As are comparable in size to dimensioned beings.
Or in short, some 1-As being larger than other 1-As through metaphysical analogues doesn't mean that 1-As are comparable in size to dimensioned beings.
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But Type 11 IS larger than Type 10. This is just getting really technical for no reason into semantics.
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"Larger doesn't apply to 1-As"
Nonsense, there are objective examples in fiction where 1-As are dwarfed by other 1-As, look no further than the Monitor-Mind encompassing everything within DC, the 1-As included, and again, any verse with 1-A hierarchies fits the bill in this case, unless you want to argue that such are not a thing.
Nonsense, there are objective examples in fiction where 1-As are dwarfed by other 1-As, look no further than the Monitor-Mind encompassing everything within DC, the 1-As included, and again, any verse with 1-A hierarchies fits the bill in this case, unless you want to argue that such are not a thing.
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@Ultima Sorry, I meant that the conventional dimensioned use of "size" and "larger" don't apply, I already acknowledged that there are metaphysical analogues.
@Matt That seems like a bit of an extreme claim, so I'd like other people to back you up before I'd agree with that.
@Matt That seems like a bit of an extreme claim, so I'd like other people to back you up before I'd agree with that.
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The Type 11 is akin to 1-A Meta-Immortality. A type of absolute level of LArge Size.
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The semantics are irritating me. 1-A is literally the same as higher dimensional beings for us, they are just larger than any dimensional size. It's fictional blah blah yes, but it exists and shouldn't be ignored because it's technically not actual size.
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This wiki suffers from too much blah blah manipulation that often makes it unaccesible to users.
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@Sera
No, actually, Sera, 1-A is not the same as higher-D. In a dimensional scope things may look wonky for us when trying to visualize a higher-D being, but we get the gist of what is supposed to happen.
We haven't the slightest inkling of what something of an above-dimensional nature would be. I can't even say "look like" since light and sight are both dimensional constructs, as is every possible conceptualizable form.
Also if we want to re-add Type 11 because of some meta-analogue of something reminiscent of size because of characters that are "larger" than others (Yog-Sothoth to Outer Gods, for example), then we does Type 11 fix this? Yog would be rated at the same level of "size" as the Outer Gods. Also with the addition of the Beyond-Dimensional Existence page, is that not essentially the replacement to Type 11? It isn't size, it is what they truly are: beyond dimensions.
No, actually, Sera, 1-A is not the same as higher-D. In a dimensional scope things may look wonky for us when trying to visualize a higher-D being, but we get the gist of what is supposed to happen.
We haven't the slightest inkling of what something of an above-dimensional nature would be. I can't even say "look like" since light and sight are both dimensional constructs, as is every possible conceptualizable form.
Also if we want to re-add Type 11 because of some meta-analogue of something reminiscent of size because of characters that are "larger" than others (Yog-Sothoth to Outer Gods, for example), then we does Type 11 fix this? Yog would be rated at the same level of "size" as the Outer Gods. Also with the addition of the Beyond-Dimensional Existence page, is that not essentially the replacement to Type 11? It isn't size, it is what they truly are: beyond dimensions.
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On what basis are you arguing here?
1. REAL world concepts are taking in consideration above else.
2. Not REAL is taking in consideration before all else.
3. They are not equal, but the concepts of 1-A are true regardless of reality land itterature.
If it's 1, are you trying to change the definition of size in the real world? You cannot apply facts or theories of the outside to the real world.
There is no invalidity on either side, if it's 2 or three. You can pick to choose yog-soth and books as a fact, and i care even less.
1. REAL world concepts are taking in consideration above else.
2. Not REAL is taking in consideration before all else.
3. They are not equal, but the concepts of 1-A are true regardless of reality land itterature.
If it's 1, are you trying to change the definition of size in the real world? You cannot apply facts or theories of the outside to the real world.
There is no invalidity on either side, if it's 2 or three. You can pick to choose yog-soth and books as a fact, and i care even less.
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Are 1-As necessarily such because they're larger than any dimensional size? Couldn't the true nature of their being just be something more complex than it isn't describable with any amount of dimensions? It doesn't have to be a larger size than dimensions, just impossible to accurately describe with them.
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We don't take real world concepts above all things because fiction can contradict them whenever and wherever it wants.
It depends on the verse. No true verse is equal.
It depends on the verse. No true verse is equal.
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I didn't mean they were literally the same. But 1-A is not this incomprehensible concept. There's 1-A swords, magic, whatever. They are just transcendent in relation to all physics. What you are describing is a very abstract/meta form of 1-A.
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I was comparing 1-A to the concept of size as the real world defines it, and obviously the answer is empty, since you can't. You are forced to implement a matter of policy in this case, either choose the concept of size as someone defines outside the real world or the reality.
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Why are we fixating on semantics? Energy is a dimensionless concept, yet we don't treat energy manipulation as 1-A or 11-C. May I also remind you that dimensions are not truly higher infinites? Yet we treat them as such anyway because of fiction. Fiction still defines beyond-dimensional quality as having a size. Just as they are "over"-dimensional, they are "over"sized. We should go by what's consistent in fiction, not real life blah blah. Unless, we should get rid of any speed that's FTL and above since FTL is impossible.
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I get that their AP, range, speed, and dura necessarily be superior to any dimensionality by definition, but would their "size" need to be? Couldn't it just be unable to be accurately represented in dimensions, not because of sheer size but because of some sort of complexity or special quality with no dimensional equivalent?
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Well, since even DarkLK agrees with Sera, we should preferably reinstate Large Size type 11, and add it to appropriate profiles.
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Depends on what you're talking about.
There's beyond-dimensional beings that exist within dimensions, the concept is just irrelevant to them. Then there are those like Tokimi who literally dwarf dimensional reality. Then there's those like Monitor-Mind The Overvoid that dwarf 1-As such as Lucifer to a point where Lucifer is less than microscopic bacteria in comparison to the Overvoid. Haju was even stated to have a "weight" too heavy for the Throne.
Size exist for 1-As. I proved how it does using reliable fictional examples and all the opposition has done is argue semantics.
There's beyond-dimensional beings that exist within dimensions, the concept is just irrelevant to them. Then there are those like Tokimi who literally dwarf dimensional reality. Then there's those like Monitor-Mind The Overvoid that dwarf 1-As such as Lucifer to a point where Lucifer is less than microscopic bacteria in comparison to the Overvoid. Haju was even stated to have a "weight" too heavy for the Throne.
Size exist for 1-As. I proved how it does using reliable fictional examples and all the opposition has done is argue semantics.
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So this type 11 wouldn't be like type 10 immortality where it's granted to all 1-As, but more like 1-A regen where it's only included if they have a feat or statement about it? (I ask because I don't remember how it was used before it was removed)
I'd be okay with that then.
I'd be okay with that then.
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I mean, even if size doesn't become meaningless on a 1-A scale, it would still be measured through a completely different system than anything bound by dimensions right?
Even if a 1-A character can be assigned a size based on comparision with another 1-A object, can they really be assigned a size based on comparison with a dimensioned object?
Even if a 1-A character can be assigned a size based on comparision with another 1-A object, can they really be assigned a size based on comparison with a dimensioned object?
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Stop. Arguing. Semantics.
I mean, even if size doesn't become meaningless on a 1-A scale, it would still be measured through a completely different system than anything bound by dimensions right?
No. Only Type 2 and 3 dimensionless entities are super/over sized beings. There's 1-As who are not treated that way, and I'm not talking about lower-dimensional beings with outerversal power either.
I mean, even if size doesn't become meaningless on a 1-A scale, it would still be measured through a completely different system than anything bound by dimensions right?
No. Only Type 2 and 3 dimensionless entities are super/over sized beings. There's 1-As who are not treated that way, and I'm not talking about lower-dimensional beings with outerversal power either.
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How is that a semantics argument?
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Because it's technicalities. You can't say "size is measured by a completely different system" at 1-A without reliable, fictional evidence. You are using philisophical realistic interpretations when we're arguing about fiction. I've proven that 1-As have the concept of size despite size techncially being a dimensional concept, just as 1-As can have space-time manipulation affect other 1-As. All the opposition has done is argue semantics and dance around the argument without debunking it.
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Yeah we should add a Type 11.
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I'm not sure if that's what a semantics argument is but I'll ignore that. Focusing on that seems unnecessary here.
As for the thread itself, if size of 1-A objects can be measured within the same system as the rest of the large size page, then I have no problem with adding a new large size type. Granted I am not the most knowledgeable person regarding this matter.
As for the thread itself, if size of 1-A objects can be measured within the same system as the rest of the large size page, then I have no problem with adding a new large size type. Granted I am not the most knowledgeable person regarding this matter.
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Our system is based off dimensions and size, yet we have a tier for beings beyond size. So if we're talking about large size, than beyond-size should be included. It's semantics. You are arguing over a specific meaning when we're talking about fiction. Please stop dancing around the argument and actually address the fictional examples presented. We are going in unnecessary circles and it's beginning to bother me.
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