Re:Creators CRT #2

Ultima_Reality · Sep 2, 2024

RM97 said:
I didn't understand the last part, could you explain why that would be the case? I mean offsite you explained that a world parallel to a 4D universe can be 1-A as long as the relationship between them fulfills the criteria for QS by being more real and being inaccessible/unreachable.

Because Reality Equalization is a standard that's precisely meant to address cases in which the difference is between two qualitatively distinct layers of reality. As long as the scenario at hand fits that bill, it's no longer "parallel worlds" as far as we are concerned, even if the verse calls them by that name. To quote the page itself:

Additionally, Reality Equalization cannot apply to virtual worlds that exist parallelly to the real world, as those are simply alternate universes, not lower of planes of reality.

RM97 said:
Do we need a perspective from inside a story world/narrative world to fulfill this criterion of a story world being a baseline world?

You'd need a large portion of the storyline to focus on the Storyworlds, yeah. As said on the page:

Generally, Reality Equalization should only apply in cases of reality-fiction differences between two characters, as it gives a better approximation to real-world statistics than other types of layers of reality. These layers of reality also tend to be a lot more subjective in their powers rather than objective. Characters are only considered strong from a certain perspective.

The story should focus, in large part, on the virtual world in question. While it is not required for the entire verse to take place inside the virtual world, it should be major or recurrent enough to be considered too important to leave out entirely.

The moments of the story focused on the virtual world should preferably be from the perspective of the virtual characters. This is due to the fact that Reality Equalization bases itself around the perspective of the character, as such, if this perspective isn't used in the original fiction, it has little to no point to be featured in the character's page. Those cases should simply be rated as Tier 11 if they fit the previous criteria.

Frankly, going by this, even if the Storyworlds are prominent enough to be tiered normally, I suspect that it'd just mean both them and the Real World would be treated as the baseline, instead of the baseline being the Storyworlds (Making the Real World 1-A) or the Real World (Making the Storyworlds 11-C)

RM97 said:
If so, what is your stance on the cosmology so far?

Putting the Infinite Abyss stuff for later at the moment, as said. But honestly, as I see it, the Storyworlds are just 11-C.

RM97 · Sep 2, 2024

Ultima_Reality said:
You'd need a large portion of the storyline to focus on the Storyworlds, yeah.

If this is the case, then would the Birdcage fit the criteria as I have explained above??:-

RM97 said:
If you want, there is also another structure aside from the Real World which can be used as a comparison for the Storyworlds and that is the "Birdcage" where nearly the latter half of the series takes place. It is a Closed Space that was Created + Controlled as a Live Story/Narrative Space which is neither a part of Reality nor Fantasy but a dimension that serves as a Crossover for different worlds. It was called a Replica of the Real World and was real enough to fool Altair into initially thinking it was the Real World for some time (Mind you, at that point, Altair knew how to differentiate between the Real World and the Storyworlds but couldn't do so here) until she figured out on her own that it was the Birdcage. Matter of fact, it was big and real enough to trap Altair in it and pin her down despite Altair's ability to travel into different worlds and having infinite power as well as being unaffected by the laws of any world. It is made so that even objects from the Real World (such as Machineries and Weapons) can freely exist inside it and it is a dimension separate from the Causality of the Real World and Storyworlds. It also has a starry sky and is implied to be infinite (for containing an infinite-sized realm) with an eternal flow of time (a flow of time is given since the events of the Birdcage took from Night to Early Morning in the Real World that was also reflected in the Birdcage).

Ultima_Reality said:
Frankly, going by this, even if the Storyworlds are prominent enough to be tiered normally, I suspect that it'd just mean both them and the Real World would be treated as the baseline, instead of the baseline being the Storyworlds (Making the Real World 1-A) or the Real World (Making the Storyworlds 11-C)

If anything else, I would say Storyworlds are Parallel Worlds to Real World given I have explained multiple times above about how the entire series is focused on how the storyworlds being real as opposed to being some 11-C realms.

Though considering the Hounds of Tindalos and likely Space-Eaters (Given that Frank Belknap Long and his books are part of the series) is (one-sided) canon to the series and has supplementary information on how the Hounds (and also the Angled Space) Transcends/Surpasses Space-Time and Dimensions, wouldn't this make the Angled Space 1-A given that Space and Time are just imperfect manifestations of the Angled Space? Even though you did say it would make the Angled Space 4D or Low 2-C only that is simply going by the story alone and this additional information of Hounds and Angled Space existing beyond Space-Time and Dimensions would be sufficient evidence that physical Space-Time and Dimensions exist and that they will be imperfect manifestions of the Angled Space. Plus, according to the FAQ page too, it would be 1-A at most and Low 1-A at least. There is also the fact that the Storyworlds is stated to function as per the Multiverse Theory where the Kanji (多元宇宙論) used specifically refers to this i.e. it could be type 4 multiverse too.

So wouldn't this make the Storyworlds Low 1-A or 1-A if going by the Frank Belknap Long books???

Ultima_Reality · Sep 2, 2024

RM97 said:
If anything else, I would say Storyworlds are Parallel Worlds to Real World given I have explained multiple times above about how the entire series is focused on how the storyworlds being real as opposed to being some 11-C realms.

Read what I said about how them being considered "parallel worlds" in-verse doesn't matter as far as our standards go. I'm not repeating myself on this. Doesn't matter what's contained in them, either; if they're ontologically lesser than the Real World and are not the baseline setting, they are 11-C.

RM97 said:
If this is the case, then would the Birdcage fit the criteria as I have explained above??:-

Would potentially go into what I said above (i.e. The possibility that both the Real World and the Storyworlds are to be collectively treated as the baseline of the verse). Granted, that realm seems to be an exceptional thing insofar as it's "neither reality nor fantasy" and isn't quite a Storyworld, so, don't know how it'd be tiered, if at all different from the Real World.

RM97 · Sep 3, 2024

Ultima_Reality said:
Read what I said about how them being considered "parallel worlds" in-verse doesn't matter as far as our standards go. I'm not repeating myself on this. Doesn't matter what's contained in them, either; if they're ontologically lesser than the Real World and are not the baseline setting, they are 11-C.

I did and I am confused by your responses, because earlier you said that the argument for the Storyworlds being Parallel Worlds would make them on the same level as the Real World, and in that case, Reality Equalization would not apply.

Ultima_Reality said:
This just implies that the Storyworlds aren't actually being transcended by the Real World. The Real World being 1-A requires them to be ontologically inferior to it, and for them to be the baseline reality of the setting, but the argument you're making just collapses them into being of the same level, so, yeah.

Ultima_Reality said:
Reality Equalization doesn't apply to parallel worlds because, if the "fictional" thing is actually just a parallel world, it's on the same level as the "Real World." So if you want to argue that the Storyworlds are just that, then you'd also be arguing that the Real World doesn't transcend the Storyworlds at all, which means the argument for 1-A collapses from the start.

That is cool and all, but then you said these which implies that you believe in the argument that Real World is Qualitatively Superior to the Storyworlds:

Ultima_Reality said:
Because Reality Equalization is a standard that's precisely meant to address cases in which the difference is between two qualitatively distinct layers of reality. As long as the scenario at hand fits that bill, it's no longer "parallel worlds" as far as we are concerned, even if the verse calls them by that name.

Ultima_Reality said:
Read what I said about how them being considered "parallel worlds" in-verse doesn't matter as far as our standards go. I'm not repeating myself on this. Doesn't matter what's contained in them, either; if they're ontologically lesser than the Real World and are not the baseline setting, they are 11-C.

So which is it and why?:

Storyworlds/Stories are parallel worlds to Real World and thus, are Low 2-C.
Storyworlds/Stories in nature are all Ontologically Lesser than the Real World due to Qualitative Differences and thus are 11-C.

Ultima_Reality said:
Would potentially go into what I said above (i.e. The possibility that both the Real World and the Storyworlds are to be collectively treated as the baseline of the verse). Granted, that realm seems to be an exceptional thing insofar as it's "neither reality nor fantasy" and isn't quite a Storyworld, so, don't know how it'd be tiered, if at all different from the Real World.

To clarify, it is a "Narrative Space"/"Live Story" that is created and controlled by the Real World. It may not be a part of the Storyworlds and not part of the Real World or its Coordinate Axis as it exists in the Gap between Reality and Fantasy, but it is still a Story with its causality, infinite space, and flow of time. There is also the fact that from the perspective of the characters it was called a Replica of the Real World and was real enough to fool Altair into initially thinking it was the Real World for some time until she figured out on her own that it was the Birdcage. It was big and real enough to trap Altair in it and pin her down despite Altair's ability to travel into different worlds and have infinite power. However, it was also stated that if Altair used her Holopscion at full power, there was a chance she could destroy the entire realm. So all in all, this would make it at least Low 2-C.

So all in all considering the Birdcage Situation, it will be one of these things:

Storyworlds and Real World will be Baseline as this is supported by how Real World and Storyworlds are simply parallel worlds.
Real World is Baseline and Storyworlds is Ontologically Inferior.
Birdcage (and by extension all the Stories) is the Baseline and the Real World is Qualitatively Superior

Ultima_Reality · Sep 3, 2024

RM97 said:
So which is it and why?:

I should be asking this to you, if anything, since throughout the thread you argue that the Storyworlds are qualitatively lesser than the Real World, and then to escape the fact that Reality Equalization would make them 11-C if they aren't the baseline, you argue that the verse treats them as parallel worlds (Which if followed to the letter would mean they aren't actually lower than the Real World, which is obviously something you don't actually think). My point is that it literally doesn't matter if the verse calls them "parallel worlds," if they're ontologically lower than the Real World, Reality Equalization applies and you need a separate argument than "They're parallel worlds!" to say that they are the baseline.

RM97 said:
There is also the fact that from the perspective of the characters it was called a Replica of the Real World and was real enough to fool Altair into initially thinking it was the Real World for some time until she figured out on her own that it was the Birdcage. It was big and real enough to trap Altair in it and pin her down despite Altair's ability to travel into different worlds and have infinite power. However, it was also stated that if Altair used her Holopscion at full power, there was a chance she could destroy the entire realm

Is Altair generally on the level of the Real World? Or is she lesser than it?

RM97 · Sep 3, 2024

Ultima_Reality said:
Is Altair generally on the level of the Real World? Or is she lesser than it?

On the level of the Real World.

Ultima_Reality said:
I should be asking this to you, if anything, since throughout the thread you argue that the Storyworlds are qualitatively lesser than the Real World, and then to escape the fact that Reality Equalization would make them 11-C if they aren't the baseline, you argue that the verse treats them as parallel worlds (Which if followed to the letter would mean they aren't actually lower than the Real World, which is obviously something you don't actually think). My point is that it literally doesn't matter if the verse calls them "parallel worlds," if they're ontologically lower than the Real World, Reality Equalization applies and you need a separate argument than "They're parallel worlds!" to say that they are the baseline.

See my initial point is that a storyworld would be a baseline Low 2-C world due to having Dimensions, Space-Time, separated Causality, etc, and being shown and called Parallel/Alternate Worlds/Timelines to the Real World. Then, the Real World is simply qualitatively superior to the worlds due to being more complex and profound and all the other stuff, which would make it 1-A.

But now given the dilemma about Reality Equalization in the wiki standards, I think we can make the story worlds as baseline parallel worlds along with the Real World given some stuff:

Firstly the series makes it very abundantly clear (along with WoG) that the Storyworlds are not lower planes but rather Parallel Worlds which I have expressed multiple times.
Secondly, the Birdcage stuff which I have posted above.
Third, the Gap between Reality and Fiction where the Birdcage is located. It is likely the gap that was left behind when Altair destroyed the "Wall" between the Real World and Storyworlds. So the wall was the physical separation between the Storyworlds and the Real World which Altair destroyed and breached to bring characters into the Real World.
Finally, I overlooked this part in the Novel, but right before the Birdcage fight, Meteora reveals that Altair's plan is stated to make the Real World collide with all the Storyworlds and make everything return to oblivion.

Though I believe that the Real World will be higher in tier than just being Low 2-C given some stuff, these are basically the reasons that would make the Storyworlds and Real Worlds on the same baseline level.

Ultima_Reality · Sep 3, 2024

RM97 said:
On the level of the Real World.

If the Birdcage can actually trap Altair and is relative to her in some way, then it's just on the same level as the Real World too.

RM97 said:
But now given the dilemma about Reality Equalization in the wiki standards, I think we can make the story worlds as baseline parallel worlds along with the Real World given some stuff:

Firstly the series makes it very abundantly clear (along with WoG) that the Storyworlds are not lower planes but rather Parallel Worlds which I have expressed multiple times.

Secondly, the Birdcage stuff which I have posted above.

Third, the Gap between Reality and Fiction where the Birdcage is located. It is likely the gap that was left behind when Altair destroyed the "Wall" between the Real World and Storyworlds. So the wall was the physical separation between the Storyworlds and the Real World which Altair destroyed and breached to bring characters into the Real World.

Finally, I overlooked this part in the Novel, but right before the Birdcage fight, Meteora reveals that Altair's plan is stated to make the Real World collide with all the Storyworlds and make everything return to oblivion.

Though I believe that the Real World will be higher in tier than just being Low 2-C given some stuff, these are basically the reasons that would make the Storyworlds and Real Worlds on the same baseline level.

Given that, it seems the last hope for 1-A would be in the Infinite Abyss stuff, yeah. I'll look over it and reply back with my thoughts in a bit.

RM97 · Sep 4, 2024

Ultima_Reality said:
If the Birdcage can actually trap Altair and is relative to her in some way, then it's just on the same level as the Real World too.

Given that, it seems the last hope for 1-A would be in the Infinite Abyss stuff, yeah. I'll look over it and reply back with my thoughts in a bit.

Alright, so far we have agreed that the Storyworlds Multiverse and the Real World will be parallel worlds and thus baseline. So before the Infinite Abyss stuff, I want to ask a couple of things:

1) What are your thoughts on the Hounds of Tindalos stuff that I posted above? Would this mean that the Angled Space would be Low 1-C or even perhaps Low 1-A given the information I have shared:

RM97 said:
Though considering the Hounds of Tindalos and likely Space-Eaters (Given that Frank Belknap Long and his books are part of the series) is (one-sided) canon to the series and has supplementary information on how the Hounds (and Doels/Space-Eaters as well as the Angled Space) Transcends/Surpasses Space-Time and Dimensions, wouldn't this make the Angled Space Low 1-A given that Space and Time are just imperfect manifestations of the Angled Space? Even though you did say it would make the Angled Space 4D or Low 2-C only that is simply going by the story alone and this additional information of Hounds and Angled Space existing beyond Space-Time and Dimensions would be sufficient evidence that physical Space-Time and Dimensions exist and that they will be imperfect manifestions of the Angled Space. Plus, according to the FAQ page too, it would be Low 1-A at least. There is also the fact that the Storyworlds is stated to function as per the Multiverse Theory where the Kanji (多元宇宙論) used specifically refers to this i.e. it could be type 4 multiverse too.

2) EoS Altair after Transcending as a God (due to the Imaginative Force) created an Alternate Timeline/Universe with its own Causality (also includes stars and galaxies and whatnot) which is similar to the Real World for Setsuna. She then says that if Setsuna's mere presence warps the Universe that she created, then Altair will create Another Universe for her inside Another World which will be inside Another Story (which she will create), implying a hierarchical/layered structure. But considering that the Universe itself is a Baseline World similar to the Real World and it is contained inside a World which is contained inside a Higher story, wouldn't this imply that the Higher Story is 1-A for containing and viewing the Universe as fictional? Or will it be 1-C tier? There is also the fact that EoS Altair said she would create Infinite Worlds and Infinite Stories and in the end, she merged with the Infinite Abyss along with Setsuna. So dunno if that helps.

Depending on these, I can then evaluate the power/tier of the Real World and EoS Altair.

Eseseso · Sep 5, 2024

Ultima_Reality said:
If the Birdcage can actually trap Altair and is relative to her in some way, then it's just on the same level as the Real World too.

Given that, it seems the last hope for 1-A would be in the Infinite Abyss stuff, yeah. I'll look over it and reply back with my thoughts in a bit.

Bump

Ultima_Reality · Sep 5, 2024

RM97 said:
Though considering the Hounds of Tindalos and likely Space-Eaters (Given that Frank Belknap Long and his books are part of the series) is (one-sided) canon to the series and has supplementary information on how the Hounds (and also the Angled Space) Transcends/Surpasses Space-Time and Dimensions, wouldn't this make the Angled Space 1-A given that Space and Time are just imperfect manifestations of the Angled Space? Even though you did say it would make the Angled Space 4D or Low 2-C only that is simply going by the story alone and this additional information of Hounds and Angled Space existing beyond Space-Time and Dimensions would be sufficient evidence that physical Space-Time and Dimensions exist and that they will be imperfect manifestions of the Angled Space.

Transcending time and space is described as an "ability" there, not as an intrinsic state of existence, so it's pretty clearly just talking about the Hounds' power to travel through spacetime. Given that context, we can infer that "transcends dimensions" is referring to the same thing, and the fact "koete" is used, of course, doesn't really mean anything. "Chou-" words in general aren't very substantial because "Chou" itself just means "Super."

RM97 said:
She then says that if Setsuna's mere presence warps the Universe that she created, then Altair will create Another Universe for her inside Another World which will be inside Another Story (which she will create)

This isn't describing any hierarchical structure. "In another story" seems to just mean that she will create another story and in the events of that story, she will be making another universe.

RM97 said:
But considering that the Universe itself is a Baseline World similar to the Real World and it is contained inside a World which is contained inside a Higher story

I can't read that.

RM97 · Sep 5, 2024

Ultima_Reality said:
Transcending time and space is described as an "ability" there, not as an intrinsic state of existence, so it's pretty clearly just talking about the Hounds' power to travel through spacetime. Given that context, we can infer that "transcends dimensions" is referring to the same thing, and the fact "koete" is used, of course, doesn't really mean anything. "Chou-" words in general aren't very substantial because "Chou" itself just means "Super."

The thing is that it mentions the presence of Angled Space (where its stated that the Hounds come from as the embodiment of Foulness) which would by default exist beyond Space-Time and Dimensions. But like I said before, Frank Belknap Long and his stories (or at least Hounds and Space-Eaters) are part of the Cthulu Mythos story worlds of the series. Plus, it satisfies the wiki standards for Public Domain crossovers. So as a one-sided crossover along with the supplementary information from the series, the Angled Space would be tier 1 IMO given that Space-Time and Dimensions here are the physical aspects instead of being the perceptions of humans which was construed from the "Hounds of Tindalos" story alone.

Ultima_Reality said:
This isn't describing any hierarchical structure. "In another story" seems to just mean that she will create another story and in the events of that story, she will be making another universe.

Ultima_Reality said:
I can't read that.

But that's not the case, as the Novel scan states, she will create "Another Story" inside which there will be "Another World" inside which there will be "Another Universe", not simply just a Universe written as a part of the Story. Plus Universe and World and even Story are synonymously used in the series to represent the same thing more or less. So it is a Universe (Baseline and Similar to the Real World) inside a Universe inside a Universe. Or to be precise, it will be a Universe that is contained inside another Universe that is written to be in the events of a Story. Plus a hierarchical structure wouldn't be an issue either given that random real-world humans can create Stories with hierarchical structure as seen with the Angled Space.

Ultima_Reality · Sep 5, 2024

RM97 said:
The thing is that it mentions the presence of Angled Space (where its stated that the Hounds come from as the embodiment of Foulness) which would by default exist beyond Space-Time and Dimensions

Angled Space being mentioned doesn't really matter if the statements supposed to indicate it "transcends dimensions" in the relevant sense just don't actually establish that in the first place. Its existence doesn't make the statements any more indicative of 1-A or Low 1-A.

RM97 said:
But that's not the case, as the Novel scan states, she will create "Another Story" inside which there will be "Another World" inside which there will be "Another Universe"

"Inside another world—within another story" is clearly just the same sentence being repeated with different wording for emphasis. Nothing in that line suggests a three-tiered structure of worlds, and even if it did, there doesn't seem to be any reason to take the lowest world in the purported nest as the baseline structure, from what I can gather.

RM97 · Sep 6, 2024

Ultima_Reality said:
Angled Space being mentioned doesn't really matter if the statements supposed to indicate it "transcends dimensions" in the relevant sense just don't actually establish that in the first place. Its existence doesn't make the statements any more indicative of 1-A or Low 1-A.

So what will be the tier of the Angled Space in here? Low 1-C/1-C? Given that there is the description of Angled Space in the novel (i.e. Time and Space being Imperfect Manifestations of Angled Space where the former two are nothing in comparison to the latter) with added supplementary info of Angled Space being Beyond Space-Time and Transcending Dimensions. Add in the presence of Space-Eaters/Doels whose story mentions the presence of a confirmed 6th Dimension.

Ultima_Reality said:
"Inside another world—within another story" is clearly just the same sentence being repeated with different wording for emphasis. Nothing in that line suggests a three-tiered structure of worlds, and even if it did, there doesn't seem to be any reason to take the lowest world in the purported nest as the baseline structure, from what I can gather.

Even if we go by the interpretation of it being a Two Tiered Structure of Worlds, the Lowest World will be the Baseline Structure given that the Lowest World is just the Alternate Timeline to the Birdcage which is also similar to the Real World (Both being Infinite Sized as previously mentioned). Moreover, from both Altair and Setsuna's POV (two Real World entities) the statements are made that if Setsuna's mere presence warps the Universe that she created, then Altair will create Another Universe for Setsuna inside Another World which will be inside Another Story.
So what tier will this be?

Ultima_Reality · Sep 6, 2024

RM97 said:
So what will be the tier of the Angled Space in here? Low 1-C/1-C?

Still Low 2-C, I'd say. The additional statements aren't indicative of any further tier.

Granted, I don't think this would even be permissible, anyway. Just because a work is in public domain, doesn't mean you can cross-scale verses to it willy-nilly. H.P Lovecraft's works themselves are in the public domain and yet you'd be hard-pressed to find any verse receiving cross-scaling from them solely on that basis.

RM97 said:
Even if we go by the interpretation of it being a Two Tiered Structure of Worlds

There are no two layers, actually, since fron what I can gather, this is just "Altair can create a universe in another story." Individual Storyworlds themselves are broader than a singular universe, no?

As for the tier: Low 2-C, I guess?

RM97 · Sep 6, 2024

Ultima_Reality said:
Granted, I don't think this would even be permissible, anyway. Just because a work is in public domain, doesn't mean you can cross-scale verses to it willy-nilly. H.P Lovecraft's works themselves are in the public domain and yet you'd be hard-pressed to find any verse receiving cross-scaling from them solely on that basis.

It would cross-scale as it follows the wiki's standards for Public Domain Crossovers since there are quotes from the novel, the same description and characteristics of the hounds, same powers and abilities, the mentions of other entities and even Angled Space, the mention of the author being a Real World human, etc in the series.

Ultima_Reality said:
Still Low 2-C, I'd say. The additional statements aren't indicative of any further tier.

If dimensions are taken as the Dimensional Axis here, then Angled Space transcending and being beyond it along with Space-Time would be Low 1-C no? Given these are just emanations of the Angled Space. What about the Doels/Space-Eaters story since it also exists in the verse and where it was stated to have confirmed 6-dimensional planes?

Ultima_Reality said:
There are no two layers, actually, since fron what I can gather, this is just "Altair can create a universe in another story." Individual Storyworlds themselves are broader than a singular universe, no?

Individual story worlds can consist of multiple Universes with the lowest end being at least 2 Universes (Blitz's Story has the Main Universe and Hell Dimension which requires a Space-Time gate to connect, the same Space-Time gate is used to connect to different Storyworlds Universes for the Birdcage) to likely Infinite Universes (Given the Worlds in the Stories keep branching as per possibilities which are Infinite and they are stated to function as per the Multiverse Theory). So a Single Storyworld has up to 2-A worlds.

Regarding the argument though, Altair said she will create Another Universe for Setsuna inside Another World which will be inside Another Story. As I explained in my previous comment, the Lowest World/Universe will be the Baseline World and thus is Low 2-C. Now, even if you say that the Another Story is just the same as Another World and thus, "Altair can create a universe in another story", the Story is Infinite/World is Infinite. So basically a Low 2-C contained inside a Higher Infinity thus, Low 1-C. This is ofc goes hand in hand with how a single story world can contain multiple universes up to 2-A, and also the Angled Space argument too.

tl;dr, Low 1-C Story for being infinite and containing 2-A Multiverse

Floxiaaa · Sep 6, 2024

I changed my mind. 2-A or Low 1-C seems like a better tier.

Ultima_Reality · Sep 7, 2024

RM97 said:
It would cross-scale as it follows the wiki's standards for Public Domain Crossovers since there are quotes from the novel, the same description and characteristics of the hounds, same powers and abilities, the mentions of other entities and even Angled Space, the mention of the author being a Real World human, etc in the series.

As far as I am aware, that specific paragraph is basically just saying "It can receive scaling from the original story if the verse explicitly mentions the exact characteristics that gave the original story its tier." So, for example, a verse mentioning the Ultimate Abyss from Cthulhu Mythos wouldn't receive scaling from it, but it that same verse rips off passages from the original Lovecraft stories describing the place and quotes them verbatim, it'd get whatever those passages talk about.

RM97 said:
If dimensions are taken as the Dimensional Axis here, then Angled Space transcending and being beyond it along with Space-Time would be Low 1-C no?

No. I already said that "Transcends spacetime" and etc. has no evidence of indicating superiority in this case. Those statements net nothing.

RM97 said:
What about the Doels/Space-Eaters story since it also exists in the verse and where it was stated to have confirmed 6-dimensional planes?

Would only receive cross-scaling if the specific text mentioning 6-D space is quoted in-verse.

RM97 said:
Now, even if you say that the Another Story is just the same as Another World and thus, "Altair can create a universe in another story", the Story is Infinite/World is Infinite. So basically a Low 2-C contained inside a Higher Infinity thus, Low 1-C.

"An infinite story" in there pretty obviously just means "A story that goes on forever," so, no.

RM97 · Sep 7, 2024

Ultima_Reality said:
As far as I am aware, that specific paragraph is basically just saying "It can receive scaling from the original story if the verse explicitly mentions the exact characteristics that gave the original story its tier." So, for example, a verse mentioning the Ultimate Abyss from Cthulhu Mythos wouldn't receive scaling from it, but it that same verse rips off passages from the original Lovecraft stories describing the place and quotes them verbatim, it'd get whatever those passages talk about.

Ultima_Reality said:
Would only receive cross-scaling if the specific text mentioning 6-D space is quoted in-verse.

So the whole Story needs to be copy-pasted to the T just to have full cross-scaling? There is simply how the Novel is written by Frank Belknap Long and is a Story in the Real World with some original quotes from the Novel such as the Chalmers seeing the Hounds having an indefinite body and how its made of foulness. Aside from that, the only description given is that the Angled Space is a Space with Supernatural Angles and exists beyond Space-Time and Dimensions.

Ultima_Reality said:
Would only receive cross-scaling if the specific text mentioning 6-D space is quoted in-verse.

Hmmmm so in that case, the whole Hounds Novel thing would be 2-C for having the Space-Time Dimension of Chalmers and the Angled Space that transcends it.

Ultima_Reality said:
"An infinite story" in there pretty obviously just means "A story that goes on forever," so, no.

It also says "An Infinite World ," which alludes to the same "Infinite Story" stuff, even by your interpretation. So the World/Story is Infinite and can contain a 2-A branching multiverse which would qualify due to the Story/World being non-insignificant in size in relation to the Universes in it as per the FAQ.
Even if we go with your argument that the Story is infinite and therefore goes on forever, it suggests that the Story operates as a higher flow of Time (since it goes on forever) that contains at least a Low 2-C timeline or at most a constantly infinite branching 2-A multiverse, aligning with the Baseline Low 1-C classification according to the tiering FAQ.
Furthermore, the continuous and infinite branching of worlds because of the Story going on forever would result in an uncountable infinite number of universes, and thus Low 1-C.

Ultima_Reality · Sep 7, 2024

RM97 said:
Hmmmm so in that case, the whole Hounds Novel thing would be 2-C for having the Space-Time Dimension of Chalmers and the Angled Space that transcends it.

Probably, yeah.

RM97 said:
So the World/Story is Infinite and can contain a 2-A branching multiverse which would qualify due to the Story/World being non-insignificant in size in relation to the Universes in it as per the FAQ.

The branching stuff seems like it doesn't refer to structures internal to the Storyworlds but to the Storyworlds themselves (e.g. If a work starts out as a light novel and then gains an anime adaptation, the LN and the anime will be separate Storyworlds and not structures included in a single Storyworld). In which case I wouldn't say the Story created here necessarily is 2-A or Low 1-C, no.

RM97 · Sep 7, 2024

Ultima_Reality said:
The branching stuff seems like it doesn't refer to structures internal to the Storyworlds but to the Storyworlds themselves (e.g. If a work starts out as a light novel and then gains an anime adaptation, the LN and the anime will be separate Storyworlds and not structures included in a single Storyworld).

Here comes a distinction between "Story" and "Storyworld". They can mean the same thing but they are not always the same (Kinda like how World and Universe are).

The existence of Stories is only stated to be in millions, or as many as there are stars in the Galaxy. There is also the fact that there are as many universes/worlds of a single story as their corresponding copies in the real world as shown when Meteora states that she will eternally reincarnate in all the copies of her games to guide the hero/player.

Now, you are correct in stating that there are different versions of the storyworlds where there can be a light novel version as well as an anime version and even more versions (manga, games, etc). This is explicitly shown in the series where Selesia is stated to come from the anime version and from her perspective, the Light Novel version is just the future version of her. However, in essence, the story remains the same for all these Storyworlds as it is created and dictated by the same person. For example, there is no difference in the Story of Selesia between the Anime and Light Novel versions as the former simply shows the past events of the latter. If someone else tries to write it and it is manifested (by the collective belief of humanity), it will only create a different story as a derivative/secondary creation.

Therefore, a Single Story encompasses Multiple Storyworlds (different versions and copies) where each Storyworld can represent a single Universe or even Multiple Universes (For example, Hounds of Tindalos, Blitz's Universe, Magane's World, etc). A big example of a single Story encompassing several Storyworlds is the Birdcage. The Birdcage itself is a "Story" which happens to be an Amalgamation of different Stories and encompasses the different types of Media (Anime, Novel, Manga) for each of the stories as a single Story developed to capture Altair.

Now coming back to your argument, the branching stuff indeed refers to the Storyworlds themselves as they are the internal structures of a Story. This is because the Story remains unchanged as it is the overarching structure that encompasses the different adaptations/types of media (Anime, Manga, Novels, Games, etc which we have established as different Universes). A single story does not branch but what branches are the Storyworlds/Universes inside the story. For example, Kanoya (a character from the Storyworld) comes from a dystopian world that has no plastic model toys, and he wants to take them from the Real World. In order to solve the problem, his Author states that he will retcon the Story so that plastic model toys will exist in Kanoya's Universe as per Meteora's theory about how the world functions as per Multiverse Theory where it could create diverging worlds. Another example is the Anime version of Selesia who came to the Real World and died, but that is just one end of the branching possibilities. However, as long as the Author of Selesia's story continues to write the story, Selesia will keep on existing until the end of the Story. This is further showcased when Selesia's Anime shows up with Selesia at the end of the Series despite the fact that Selesia from the Anime died in the Real World. The implies that the Anime Selesia that came to the world is just from one branching world of the Anime version of Selesia's Story.

So all in all, you aren't wrong and neither am I. A single Story is an overarching structure that encompasses the relevant storyworlds which are the Clusters of Universes that represent the different versions and copies of the story that keeps on branching. Therefore, Storyworlds can branch into infinite worlds or 2-A structure, but it is encompassed by the "Story" which itself remains unbranched.

Ultima_Reality · Sep 8, 2024

RM97 said:
Here comes a distinction between "Story" and "Storyworld". They can mean the same thing but they are not always the same (Kinda like how World and Universe are).

The existence of Stories is only stated to be in millions, or as many as there are stars in the Galaxy. There is also the fact that there are as many universes/worlds of a single story as their corresponding copies in the real world as shown when Meteora states that she will eternally reincarnate in all the copies of her games to guide the hero/player.

Now, you are correct in stating that there are different versions of the storyworlds where there can be a light novel version as well as an anime version and even more versions (manga, games, etc). This is explicitly shown in the series where Selesia is stated to come from the anime version and from her perspective, the Light Novel version is just the future version of her. However, in essence, the story remains the same for all these Storyworlds as it is created and dictated by the same person. For example, there is no difference in the Story of Selesia between the Anime and Light Novel versions as the former simply shows the past events of the latter. If someone else tries to write it and it is manifested (by the collective belief of humanity), it will only create a different story as a derivative/secondary creation.

Therefore, a Single Story encompasses Multiple Storyworlds (different versions and copies) where each Storyworld can represent a single Universe or even Multiple Universes (For example, Hounds of Tindalos, Blitz's Universe, Magane's World, etc). A big example of a single Story encompassing several Storyworlds is the Birdcage. The Birdcage itself is a "Story" which happens to be an Amalgamation of different Stories and encompasses the different types of Media (Anime, Novel, Manga) for each of the stories as a single Story developed to capture Altair.

Now coming back to your argument, the branching stuff indeed refers to the Storyworlds themselves as they are the internal structures of a Story. This is because the Story remains unchanged as it is the overarching structure that encompasses the different adaptations/types of media (Anime, Manga, Novels, Games, etc which we have established as different Universes). A single story does not branch but what branches are the Storyworlds/Universes inside the story. For example, Kanoya (a character from the Storyworld) comes from a dystopian world that has no plastic model toys, and he wants to take them from the Real World. In order to solve the problem, his Author states that he will retcon the Story so that plastic model toys will exist in Kanoya's Universe as per Meteora's theory about how the world functions as per Multiverse Theory where it could create diverging worlds. Another example is the Anime version of Selesia who came to the Real World and died, but that is just one end of the branching possibilities. However, as long as the Author of Selesia's story continues to write the story, Selesia will keep on existing until the end of the Story. This is further showcased when Selesia's Anime shows up with Selesia at the end of the Series despite the fact that Selesia from the Anime died in the Real World. The implies that the Anime Selesia that came to the world is just from one branching world of the Anime version of Selesia's Story.

So all in all, you aren't wrong and neither am I. A single Story is an overarching structure that encompasses the relevant storyworlds which are the Clusters of Universes that represent the different versions and copies of the story that keeps on branching. Therefore, Storyworlds can branch into infinite worlds or 2-A structure, but it is encompassed by the "Story" which itself remains unbranched.

This explanation just gives off the impression that a Story in-and-of-itself isn't a structure at all. It's just the "plot" that is followed by one Storyworld or more, instead of being some blank space where you can insert universes and which therefore is as large as infinite universes. In which case, it doesn't seem like creating one inherently merits 2-A here, no.

RM97 · Sep 8, 2024

Ultima_Reality said:
It's just the "plot" that is followed by one Storyworld or more, instead of being some blank space where you can insert universes and which therefore is as large as infinite universes.

"Plot" is depicted to be distinct from "Story" in the series even though the former is part of the latter.

"Plot" is referred to as the "Setting" ("Settei"/"設定") in a story. For example, Altair's Holopsicon 9th Movement is an ability that makes the "Plot" disappear. However, in the guidebook description, the ability is stated to make the Narrative "Setting" disappear. Another example is Altair's Holopsicon 13th Movement which is an ability that reverts the "Plot" in a "Story" back to the beginning of the "Story". In the guidebook description, the ability is stated to be able to return the "Setting" back to its initial state. The biggest evidence of this distinction comes from the Guidebook as the Guidebook specifically makes a clear distinction between Story ("Monogatari"/"物語"), "Setting" ("Settei"/"設定"), and Worldview ("Sekaikan"/"世界観") in the series.

On the other hand, a Story is referred to as the "Narrative" ("Monogatari"/"物語"). As a matter of fact, a "Story" being a "Space" is outright given in the form of the Birdcage. The Birdcage itself is a "Story" but this same story is called a "Narrative Space". It is also blatantly stated that the Creators will connect the Rules of the Worlds of their Stories and create the Setting/Plot which will form the backbone for the Story which is a Closed Space that is called the Birdcage.

So basically a Plot is just a part of a Story, forming the latter's backbone, while a Story is indeed a Narrative Space that encompasses multiple story worlds (as explained in my previous comment).

RM97 · Sep 14, 2024

Bump

So what I am trying to say here is that a "Story" is an entire package that contains all these elements such as plot, worldview, configuration, universes, etc, instead of being used as a colloquial term for the "Plot". A "Story" is the structure containing its relevant Storyworlds that keep branching (inside the structure) as per possibilities (of which there are infinite) due to several factors. This includes:

Different media types,
Copies made for each media types,
Different versions of the plot (all consistent with the storyline),
Retcons and changes in the story can create new branching worlds based on Multiverse Theory, and
The propensity of "Information" to constantly create infinite new information through permutation and combination with itself. Hence why Meteora said her world had enough information to create other worlds (but not other stories).

shinnKazals · Sep 22, 2024

Revaret · Oct 17, 2024

shinnKazals · Oct 21, 2024

lmao, bump again

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