The_Yellow_Topaz
She/Her- 1,477
- 1,512
Hey, so getting multipliers via scaling as opposed to using the stated ones is kind of dogshit, how about we change that and bring examples on how that could lead to some very big problems?
Oh and,
"Multipliers come from direct statements instead of being reasoned from something else."
The SSJ2 multiplier we use is never directly stated, instead it's reasoned from scaling with other forms.
"Another thing to keep in mind is that multipliers are not necessarily constant. For example: If a character is twice as fast as another at one point in time, that might not apply at any other point in time."
SSJ Gohan never got to use his fully-rage boosted power against Perfect Cell, we cannot know how much stronger he would've been, if at all. Thus, the scaling here is not necessarily consistent with the full power of the form.
The page even gives Gohan a "? battle power when emotional", so yeah, there is power multiplication when he is enraged.
This is only taking Gohan's rage into consideration, Gohan who is a character that has greater potential than most of the cast.
But first, let's prove that SSJ2 to SSJ3 is a stomp gap, thus, prove that, through rage alone, you can reach that gap.
Thus, THE MULTIPLIER PAGE LIES WHEN THEY SAY GOHAN "TURNED A STOMP AROUND WITH JUST A x2 MULTIPLIER". It's a x2 multiplier + an immeasurable rage boost.
TL;DR: SSJ2's multiplier is not entirely responsible for Gohan's power up, thus the 20x multiplier cannot be credited to the form alone. Therefore we should remove it.
So what happened here? Well, the author didn't take scaling into account, it's as simple as that. We shouldn't use scaling for multipliers FRA
It's the one's everyone knows and loves.
Credits to @CloverDragon03 ig
"That aside, generally speaking I'm cool with bringing these multipliers back, but I'd go as far as to axe the 10x Super Saiyan Grade 3 multiplier. I was digging on the Dragon Ball Wiki, and while I don't take the wiki itself as a source, I do take the things it references as sources, one such thing in fact being the El Manga Legendario statement of Grade 3 being 10x stronger than Grade 2. One thing it references is a certain "Trunks anime comics - "Super Saiyan" section" that seems to state that Super Saiyan Third Grade is weaker than Super Saiyan 2, which would be a contradiction for its 10x multiplier. I'll admittedly need to do some more digging on this source.
In addition, Super Saiyan Goku casually blocks an attack from Super Saiyan Grade 3 Caulifla despite the apparent 10x gap. Yes, the biggest reason he so easily overpowers her is the speed issue, but given the fact that Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla are equal, being the same amp would make Super Saiyan Goku equal to Super Saiyan Caulifla. Going by this, Goku somehow... casually blocked an attack 10x stronger than his Super Saiyan form and 1.25x stronger than his Super Saiyan 3 form."
Since Super Saiyan 2 is stronger than any previous form in everyway imaginable, the fact it's still only x2 as strong as regular SS should contradict Grade 3 in every way, since the SSJ2 multiplier is stated in much more reliable sources and more often. A x2 multiplier has shown time and time again to turn a stomp around in DB, like with Ultimate Gohan vs Super Buu, so Grade 2 and Grade 3 being less than x2 is still consistent within the verse.
Tell me, did I cook?
Oh and,
"SOB SOB, WHY IS EVERYTHING COLOR CODED?"
LISTEN HERE YOU LITTLE SH-
This revision has been sitting in my sandbox for WEEKS!
I had to do something while I wanted for an opportunity to post it. NOW ENJOY.
LISTEN HERE YOU LITTLE SH-
This revision has been sitting in my sandbox for WEEKS!
I had to do something while I wanted for an opportunity to post it. NOW ENJOY.
INTRODUCTION
Hello!
Today!
We're changing some BIG things. Of course, every thread of mine beings by explaining what's the current situation that I want to change, and then I dive into the reasoning why it should be changed. So
Fasten your seatbelts, and let's begin.
Currently, the following Super Saiyan forms have a multiplier:
Today!
We're changing some BIG things. Of course, every thread of mine beings by explaining what's the current situation that I want to change, and then I dive into the reasoning why it should be changed. So
Fasten your seatbelts, and let's begin.
Currently, the following Super Saiyan forms have a multiplier:
- Super Saiyan: 50x Base
- Super Saiyan Grade 3: 500x Base
- Super Saiyan 2: 1000x Base
- Super Saiyan God: 125000x Base
- Super Saiyan Blue: 50x God
As you can probably tell, Super Saiyan 3 got the short end of the stick.
******* why? Well, because while we do have stated multipliers for the form, they usually come alongside another multiplier that contradicts the ones we currently accept.
That is, Super Saiyan 2 being only twice as strong as regular Super Saiyan, which is 50x.
This would lead to "problems" such as Grade 3 being so much stronger than even SSJ3.
PFFT.
Nah, so the current justification for SSJ2 being 1000x Base Form is just scaling above characters that are that strong. From this, the wiki got their standard multipliers for the form.
This thread will attempt to downgrade Super Saiyan 2's multiplier back to 100x, and introduce the Super Saiyan 3's multiplier.
******* why? Well, because while we do have stated multipliers for the form, they usually come alongside another multiplier that contradicts the ones we currently accept.
That is, Super Saiyan 2 being only twice as strong as regular Super Saiyan, which is 50x.
This would lead to "problems" such as Grade 3 being so much stronger than even SSJ3.
PFFT.
Nah, so the current justification for SSJ2 being 1000x Base Form is just scaling above characters that are that strong. From this, the wiki got their standard multipliers for the form.
This thread will attempt to downgrade Super Saiyan 2's multiplier back to 100x, and introduce the Super Saiyan 3's multiplier.
Multipliers via Scaling is flawed
1. It goes against our multiplier standards
Let's read some of the guidelines."Multipliers come from direct statements instead of being reasoned from something else."
The SSJ2 multiplier we use is never directly stated, instead it's reasoned from scaling with other forms.
"Another thing to keep in mind is that multipliers are not necessarily constant. For example: If a character is twice as fast as another at one point in time, that might not apply at any other point in time."
SSJ Gohan never got to use his fully-rage boosted power against Perfect Cell, we cannot know how much stronger he would've been, if at all. Thus, the scaling here is not necessarily consistent with the full power of the form.
2. Rage Boost is not taken into consideration
Gohan's rage throughout the series has shown time and time again to multiply his power further, which would also explain how he overpowered Powerhouse Cell. Let me take into examples where Gohan's power was multiplied simply by being angry.- 4yo Gohan's power level skyrockets to 1307 when enraged, his usual power level is 1. (This is probably the most agregious example)
- Gohan's power level skyrockets from ~1500 to 2800 after seeing Piccolo die.
- Despite only having a base power level of 200k, he manages to beat up 2nd Form Frieza who has five times more power.
The page even gives Gohan a "? battle power when emotional", so yeah, there is power multiplication when he is enraged.
This is only taking Gohan's rage into consideration, Gohan who is a character that has greater potential than most of the cast.
VEGETA'S RAGE ALSO BRIDGES THE GAP
Vegeta has always been behind Goku, yet, with Rage alone, he was able to bridge the gap between his SSJ2 form and Goku's SSJ3 form. And you know the scene I'm talking about.But first, let's prove that SSJ2 to SSJ3 is a stomp gap, thus, prove that, through rage alone, you can reach that gap.
- As Majin Vegeta, he was getting curbstomped by Majin Buu.
- He was equal to SSJ2 Goku
- Yet SSJ3 Goku stomped Majin Buu, and said he could even kill him.
- Yet, Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta performed better against Beerus than SSJ3 Goku did.
CONCLUSION (to that specific point)
SSJ2 Gohan does not surpass Cell because of the form multiplier alone, it's a combination of SSJ2's multiplier + the absolute peak of his Rage Boost. Thus, scaling the gap he bridged and crediting to the form alone is incorrect.Thus, THE MULTIPLIER PAGE LIES WHEN THEY SAY GOHAN "TURNED A STOMP AROUND WITH JUST A x2 MULTIPLIER". It's a x2 multiplier + an immeasurable rage boost.
TL;DR: SSJ2's multiplier is not entirely responsible for Gohan's power up, thus the 20x multiplier cannot be credited to the form alone. Therefore we should remove it.
3. This could lead to some big problems
So, you're still thinking we should give forms full fledged multipliers based on scaling alone? Great, let's try to do that with SSJ3, shall we?- Goku as a Super Saiyan 2 is equal to Majin Vegeta (We saw this earlier)
- Pre-HTC Gotenks is stronger than Majin Vegeta
- Pre-HTC SSJGotenks is 50x stronger than Majin Vegeta
- Post-HTC Gotenks is 50x stronger than Majin Vegeta
- Post-HTC SSJGotenks is 2500x stronger than Majin Vegeta
- Post-HTC SSJ3Gotenks is 50000x stronger than Majin Vegeta (or just 20000x if you normal multipliers)
- Super Buu is about as strong as SSJ3 Gotenks
- Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu
- SSJ3 Goku is "equal to Kid Buu"
So what happened here? Well, the author didn't take scaling into account, it's as simple as that. We shouldn't use scaling for multipliers FRA
NEW MULTIPLIERS
It's the one's everyone knows and loves.- SSJ2 will be x2 as strong as SSJ
- SSJ3 will be x4 as stronger as SSJ2
The Evidence
These two multipliers have actually been stated twice in canonical material, even after Super came out, meaning they really still think of the forms as being that strong.- This is first stated in Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume
- This is re-interated over 30 years later in DBZ: Kakarot's Encyclopedia.
Axing Grade 3
Credits to @CloverDragon03 ig"That aside, generally speaking I'm cool with bringing these multipliers back, but I'd go as far as to axe the 10x Super Saiyan Grade 3 multiplier. I was digging on the Dragon Ball Wiki, and while I don't take the wiki itself as a source, I do take the things it references as sources, one such thing in fact being the El Manga Legendario statement of Grade 3 being 10x stronger than Grade 2. One thing it references is a certain "Trunks anime comics - "Super Saiyan" section" that seems to state that Super Saiyan Third Grade is weaker than Super Saiyan 2, which would be a contradiction for its 10x multiplier. I'll admittedly need to do some more digging on this source.
In addition, Super Saiyan Goku casually blocks an attack from Super Saiyan Grade 3 Caulifla despite the apparent 10x gap. Yes, the biggest reason he so easily overpowers her is the speed issue, but given the fact that Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla are equal, being the same amp would make Super Saiyan Goku equal to Super Saiyan Caulifla. Going by this, Goku somehow... casually blocked an attack 10x stronger than his Super Saiyan form and 1.25x stronger than his Super Saiyan 3 form."
Since Super Saiyan 2 is stronger than any previous form in everyway imaginable, the fact it's still only x2 as strong as regular SS should contradict Grade 3 in every way, since the SSJ2 multiplier is stated in much more reliable sources and more often. A x2 multiplier has shown time and time again to turn a stomp around in DB, like with Ultimate Gohan vs Super Buu, so Grade 2 and Grade 3 being less than x2 is still consistent within the verse.
Tell me, did I cook?
- Agree: @CloverDragon03, @Damage3245, @DarkDragonMedeus, @UchihaSlayer96, @Chariot190 (6)
- Neutral:
- Disagree:
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