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The MUCH NEEDED Super Saiyan Multiplier Revision

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The_Yellow_Topaz

The_Yellow_Topaz

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Hey, so getting multipliers via scaling as opposed to using the stated ones is kind of dogshit, how about we change that and bring examples on how that could lead to some very big problems?

Oh and,
"SOB SOB, WHY IS EVERYTHING COLOR CODED?"
LISTEN HERE YOU LITTLE SH-
This revision has been sitting in my sandbox for WEEKS!
I had to do something while I wanted for an opportunity to post it. NOW ENJOY.​

INTRODUCTION​

Hello!
Today!
We're changing some BIG things. Of course, every thread of mine beings by explaining what's the current situation that I want to change, and then I dive into the reasoning why it should be changed. So
Fasten your seatbelts, and let's begin.
Currently, the following Super Saiyan forms have a multiplier:​
  • Super Saiyan: 50x Base​
  • Super Saiyan Grade 3: 500x Base​
  • Super Saiyan 2: 1000x Base​
  • Super Saiyan God: 125000x Base​
  • Super Saiyan Blue: 50x God​
As you can probably tell, Super Saiyan 3 got the short end of the stick.
******* why? Well, because while we do have stated multipliers for the form, they usually come alongside another multiplier that contradicts the ones we currently accept.
That is, Super Saiyan 2 being only twice as strong as regular Super Saiyan, which is 50x.
This would lead to "problems" such as Grade 3 being so much stronger than even SSJ3.
PFFT.
Nah, so the current justification for SSJ2 being 1000x Base Form is just scaling above characters that are that strong. From this, the wiki got their standard multipliers for the form.
This thread will attempt to downgrade Super Saiyan 2's multiplier back to 100x, and introduce the Super Saiyan 3's multiplier.​


Multipliers via Scaling is flawed​

1. It goes against our multiplier standards​

Let's read some of the guidelines.
"Multipliers come from direct statements instead of being reasoned from something else."

The SSJ2 multiplier we use is never directly stated, instead it's reasoned from scaling with other forms.

"Another thing to keep in mind is that multipliers are not necessarily constant. For example: If a character is twice as fast as another at one point in time, that might not apply at any other point in time."

SSJ Gohan never got to use his fully-rage boosted power against Perfect Cell, we cannot know how much stronger he would've been, if at all. Thus, the scaling here is not necessarily consistent with the full power of the form.

2. Rage Boost is not taken into consideration​

Gohan's rage throughout the series has shown time and time again to multiply his power further, which would also explain how he overpowered Powerhouse Cell. Let me take into examples where Gohan's power was multiplied simply by being angry.

Let's read what V-Jump says about Gohan: "The normal combat value is 200,000!! Moreover, the latent combat value far exceeds this!!!"
The page even gives Gohan a "? battle power when emotional", so yeah, there is power multiplication when he is enraged.

This is only taking Gohan's rage into consideration, Gohan who is a character that has greater potential than most of the cast.

VEGETA'S RAGE ALSO BRIDGES THE GAP​

Vegeta has always been behind Goku, yet, with Rage alone, he was able to bridge the gap between his SSJ2 form and Goku's SSJ3 form. And you know the scene I'm talking about.

But first, let's prove that SSJ2 to SSJ3 is a stomp gap, thus, prove that, through rage alone, you can reach that gap.
Thus, with rage alone, Vegeta reached a level that would otherwise stomp him. Gohan has greater potential and is the pioneer in rage boosting in the series, therefore he could do the same.

CONCLUSION (to that specific point)​

SSJ2 Gohan does not surpass Cell because of the form multiplier alone, it's a combination of SSJ2's multiplier + the absolute peak of his Rage Boost. Thus, scaling the gap he bridged and crediting to the form alone is incorrect.

Thus, THE MULTIPLIER PAGE LIES WHEN THEY SAY GOHAN "TURNED A STOMP AROUND WITH JUST A x2 MULTIPLIER". It's a x2 multiplier + an immeasurable rage boost.

TL;DR: SSJ2's multiplier is not entirely responsible for Gohan's power up, thus the 20x multiplier cannot be credited to the form alone. Therefore we should remove it.

3. This could lead to some big problems​

So, you're still thinking we should give forms full fledged multipliers based on scaling alone? Great, let's try to do that with SSJ3, shall we?

Does anyone want SSJ3 to be 50000x SSJ2? Does anyone genuinely believe that? No?

So what happened here? Well, the author didn't take scaling into account, it's as simple as that. We shouldn't use scaling for multipliers FRA


NEW MULTIPLIERS​

It's the one's everyone knows and loves.
  • SSJ2 will be x2 as strong as SSJ
  • SSJ3 will be x4 as stronger as SSJ2
"Oh but then Grade 3 will be physically stronger than SSJ3", first off, Grade 3 can provide a good enough boost to overcome a stomp gap, if you can't provide any meaningful contradictions, I will ignore you.

The Evidence​

These two multipliers have actually been stated twice in canonical material, even after Super came out, meaning they really still think of the forms as being that strong.


Axing Grade 3​

Credits to @CloverDragon03 ig
"That aside, generally speaking I'm cool with bringing these multipliers back, but I'd go as far as to axe the 10x Super Saiyan Grade 3 multiplier. I was digging on the Dragon Ball Wiki, and while I don't take the wiki itself as a source, I do take the things it references as sources, one such thing in fact being the El Manga Legendario statement of Grade 3 being 10x stronger than Grade 2. One thing it references is a certain "Trunks anime comics - "Super Saiyan" section" that seems to state that Super Saiyan Third Grade is weaker than Super Saiyan 2, which would be a contradiction for its 10x multiplier. I'll admittedly need to do some more digging on this source.

In addition, Super Saiyan Goku casually blocks an attack from Super Saiyan Grade 3 Caulifla despite the apparent 10x gap. Yes, the biggest reason he so easily overpowers her is the speed issue, but given the fact that Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla are equal, being the same amp would make Super Saiyan Goku equal to Super Saiyan Caulifla. Going by this, Goku somehow... casually blocked an attack 10x stronger than his Super Saiyan form and 1.25x stronger than his Super Saiyan 3 form."

Since Super Saiyan 2 is stronger than any previous form in everyway imaginable, the fact it's still only x2 as strong as regular SS should contradict Grade 3 in every way, since the SSJ2 multiplier is stated in much more reliable sources and more often. A x2 multiplier has shown time and time again to turn a stomp around in DB, like with Ultimate Gohan vs Super Buu, so Grade 2 and Grade 3 being less than x2 is still consistent within the verse.


Tell me, did I cook?

  • Agree: @CloverDragon03, @Damage3245, @DarkDragonMedeus, @UchihaSlayer96, @Chariot190 (6)
  • Neutral:
  • Disagree:
 
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Timestamped link for the DBZ Kakarot Encyclopedia part

Also, for the first part about multipliers via scaling, Super Saiyan 2 was never given a direct multiplier. It just scales higher than Grade 3, which is in fact 10x. That's not really a problem scaling-wise, and it also doesn't help that your only response to the ramifications was "does anyone actually believe this?" Not exactly a valid argument.

That aside, generally speaking I'm cool with bringing these multipliers back, but I'd go as far as to axe the 10x Super Saiyan Grade 3 multiplier. I was digging on the Dragon Ball Wiki, and while I don't take the wiki itself as a source, I do take the things it references as sources, one such thing in fact being the El Manga Legendario statement of Grade 3 being 10x stronger than Grade 2. One thing it references is a certain "Trunks anime comics - "Super Saiyan" section" that seems to state that Super Saiyan Third Grade is weaker than Super Saiyan 2, which would be a contradiction for its 10x multiplier. I'll admittedly need to do some more digging on this source.

In addition, Super Saiyan Goku casually blocks an attack from Super Saiyan Grade 3 Caulifla despite the apparent 10x gap. Yes, the biggest reason he so easily overpowers her is the speed issue, but given the fact that Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla are equal, being the same amp would make Super Saiyan Goku equal to Super Saiyan Caulifla. Going by this, Goku somehow... casually blocked an attack 10x stronger than his Super Saiyan form and 1.25x stronger than his Super Saiyan 3 form.

It also doesn't help that the name of Goku's Mastered Super Saiyan form (from the Cell Saga) was initially called Super Saiyan Grade 4, and Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 initially being called Super Saiyan Grade 5, indicating these two forms to be superior to Grade 3 overall. This is all ignoring the fact, too, that since Super Saiyan 2 is already accepted as superior to Super Saiyan Grade 3 in AP, you'd need to prove why instead of just saying "well it can overcome a stomp gap so it's fine."
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Timestamped link for the DBZ Kakarot Encyclopedia part

Also, for the first part about multipliers via scaling, Super Saiyan 2 was never given a direct multiplier. It just scales higher than Grade 3, which is in fact 10x. That's not really a problem scaling-wise, and it also doesn't help that your only response to the ramifications was "does anyone actually believe this?" Not exactly a valid argument.
Click to expand...
I suggest you read my post again. I posted undeniable examples that, first, multipliers via scaling is not allowed, and that Rage Boost provides a multiplier to one's power, thus making the 20x multiplier not being creditable to the form alone. I never provided examples on how SSJ2's multiplier via scaling had a problem, I just proved why it wasn't even valid in the first place.

My "does anyone believe this" was in response to applying the same method for Super Saiyan 3, a form that's been described as "a few times stronger than Super Saiyan 2". Thus making the example where you could get it to 20000x multiplier just by stacking scaling ridiculous, inconsistent and absurd as a multiplier like that would require ten times the amount of evidence a 50x multiplier would according to the site's standards.
CloverDragon03 said:
That aside, generally speaking I'm cool with bringing these multipliers back, but I'd go as far as to axe the 10x Super Saiyan Grade 3 multiplier. I was digging on the Dragon Ball Wiki, and while I don't take the wiki itself as a source, I do take the things it references as sources, one such thing in fact being the El Manga Legendario statement of Grade 3 being 10x stronger than Grade 2. One thing it references is a certain "Trunks anime comics - "Super Saiyan" section" that seems to state that Super Saiyan Third Grade is weaker than Super Saiyan 2, which would be a contradiction for its 10x multiplier. I'll admittedly need to do some more digging on this source.

In addition, Super Saiyan Goku casually blocks an attack from Super Saiyan Grade 3 Caulifla despite the apparent 10x gap. Yes, the biggest reason he so easily overpowers her is the speed issue, but given the fact that Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla are equal, being the same amp would make Super Saiyan Goku equal to Super Saiyan Caulifla. Going by this, Goku somehow... casually blocked an attack 10x stronger than his Super Saiyan form and 1.25x stronger than his Super Saiyan 3 form.

It also doesn't help that the name of Goku's Mastered Super Saiyan form (from the Cell Saga) was initially called Super Saiyan Grade 4, and Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 initially being called Super Saiyan Grade 5, indicating these two forms to be superior to Grade 3 overall. This is all ignoring the fact, too, that since Super Saiyan 2 is already accepted as superior to Super Saiyan Grade 3 in AP, you'd need to prove why instead of just saying "well it can overcome a stomp gap so it's fine."
Click to expand...
What are you arguing against? I'm not making an argument FOR Grade 3, I'm arguing why Grade 3 ISN'T an issue here, much less a contradiction. I'm not touching the naming fallacy you just provided, because again, idgaf about Grade 3. If you want to axe the Grade 3 multiplier, do it elsewhere, I just stopped anyone from using IT as a contradiction.

This is about SSJ2 and SSJ3's multiplier, and them alone. You've terribly misrepresented my arguments.
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
I suggest you read my post again. I posted undeniable examples that, first, multipliers via scaling is not allowed, and that Rage Boost provides a multiplier to one's power, thus making the 20x multiplier not being creditable to the form alone. I never provided examples on how SSJ2's multiplier via scaling had a problem, I just proved why it wasn't even valid in the first place.
Click to expand...
Ngl I completely forgot it was actually given a 20x multiplier instead of just being scaled above SSJ Grade 3's 10x (which wouldn't be giving it itself a multiplier, just scaling a stronger form above a weaker one)

Don't care about the rage stuff because that's all well and good and I've got nothing to say on that.
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
My "does anyone believe this" was in response to applying the same method for Super Saiyan 3, a form that's been described as "a few times stronger than Super Saiyan 2". Thus making the example where you could get it to 20000x multiplier just by stacking scaling ridiculous, inconsistent and absurd as a multiplier like that would require ten times the amount of evidence a 50x multiplier would according to the site's standards.
Click to expand...
Well a lot of it doesn't even work to begin with. I mean, for instance, Super Buu isn't even accepted as being inferior to Kid Buu (and this is specifically South Supreme Kai Super Buu, not Kid Buu, so the scan you used doesn't even hold up anyway). And what SSJ2 would be is simply scaling above a stated multiplier, as opposed to you using multiple instances of scaling rather than direct multipliers to arrive at SSJ3's multiplier (like using Post-HCT Gotenks > Pre-HCT SSJ Gotenks).
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
What are you arguing against? I'm not making an argument FOR Grade 3, I'm arguing why Grade 3 ISN'T an issue here, much less a contradiction. I'm not touching the naming fallacy you just provided, because again, idgaf about Grade 3. If you want to axe the Grade 3 multiplier, do it elsewhere, I just stopped anyone from using IT as a contradiction.

This is about SSJ2 and SSJ3's multiplier, and them alone. You've terribly misrepresented my arguments.
Click to expand...
I know you are, and I'm saying: No, it is an issue, and should likely be axed. And no, I'm not going to do it elsewhere when the ramifications of this thread place Grade 3 as superior in AP to SSJ3. If you want to ignore it, be my guest, but this is relevant. Also, name fallacy when the higher grade levels have literally all indicated power increases doesn't exactly apply here, just saying.

I don't believe I've misrepresented anything
 
CloverDragon03 said:
No, it is an issue, and should likely be axed. And no, I'm not going to do it elsewhere when the ramifications of this thread place Grade 3 as superior in AP to SSJ3. If you want to ignore it, be my guest, but this is relevant.
Click to expand...
This is NOT this thread's problems. If Grade 3's multiplier in no way are related to SSJ2's and SSJ3's multiplier, then it's not my problem. The evidence doesn't get weaker or stronger if we exclude or include Grade 3, therefore you shouldn't cloud your judgement by that, just make a new thread to axe the Grade 3 multiplier, or don't, that's your decision, I will not be adding a Grade 3's multiplier debunk to my OP.
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
The form multiplier is STILL 50x, we just scale Goku, the character, as twice as strong as Trunks.

Grade 4 is equal to Grade 1.
Click to expand...
Vegeta even notes that the feeling of Goku and Gohan's Grade 4 is different from a normal Super Saiyan. And then, well, again... SSJ2 is called Grade 5, and unlike Grade 4, it is a completely different transformation so this logic doesn't even apply to it.

I don't even care about this point as much because I brought up other, even more relevant stuff, but I don't see how this falls under a name fallacy.
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
This is NOT this thread's problems. If Grade 3's multiplier in no way are related to SSJ2's and SSJ3's multiplier, then it's not my problem. The evidence doesn't get weaker or stronger if we exclude or include Grade 3, therefore you shouldn't cloud your judgement by that, just make a new thread to axe the Grade 3 multiplier, or don't, that's your decision, I will not be adding a Grade 3's multiplier debunk to my OP.
Click to expand...
So you specify in the OP why Grade 3's multiplier isn't an issue, and then suddenly it's wrong for me to address it...?

No, that's just bad practice.

Edit: You even say in the OP that if people don't provide meaningful contradictions, you'll ignore them. I'm providing contradictions, and your response is "you can't bring that up here."
 
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The_Yellow_Topaz said:
Gohan's rage throughout the series has shown time and time again to multiply his power further
Click to expand...
His power isn't multiplied, he's just drawing out more of his dormant power.
The point remains the same, though.
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
first off, Grade 3 can provide a good enough boost to overcome a stomp gap
Click to expand...
uhhhh... so?
a 2x boost is good enough to overcome a stomp and another transformation on top of that.
besides, the 10x value is only substantiated by the el manga legendario.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Vegeta even notes that the feeling of Goku and Gohan's Grade 4 is different from a normal Super Saiyan. And then, well, again... SSJ2 is called Grade 5, and unlike Grade 4, it is a completely different transformation so this logic doesn't even apply to it.
Click to expand...
Nah nah nah, you can make arguments for Grade 3 all you want, but Grade 4 is completely irrelevant to this thread and it is accepted as being equal to Grade 1. Your argument falls under name fallacy as long as that's true and you will not be able to argue for a Grade 4 upgrade here, so let's drop this.
No, being called Grade 5 and being a different transformation doesn't grant it an auto-pass to being stronger than all previous grades, it has other reasons/evidence to argue that. Drop it.
CloverDragon03 said:
So you specify in the OP why Grade 3's multiplier isn't an issue, and then suddenly it's wrong for me to address it...?

No, that's just bad practice.
Click to expand...
It's like we're speaking two different languages. It's not wrong for you to address the damn thing, the problem is you trying to apply a whole different revision on a different form.

I specifically said I would ignore anything that would not contradict the SSJ3's multiplier. None of your examples provides anything to debunk SSJ3's multiplier, instead it provides contradictions to Grade 3 itself, which again, it's irrelevant to this thread.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
His power isn't multiplied, he's just drawing out more of his dormant power.
The point remains the same, though.
Click to expand...
Well, yeah, kind of semantics.
Cuz' it technically does provide multiplication to the power he is currently wielding, instead it's through... unleashing more power, instead of an actual amplification of base abilities, but as you pointed out, the point is the same.
Nullflowerblush said:
uhhhh... so?
a 2x boost is good enough to overcome a stomp and another transformation on top of that.
besides, the 10x value is only substantiated by the el manga legendario.
Click to expand...
Yeah, Clover provided plenty of contradictions to that 10x multiplier already. I don't think we should handle them here.
 
Phsccarvalho said:
In which crt was this accepted? as far as I know the SSJ2 multiplier is the same as grade 3, in this case 500x, the same thing for SSJ3.
Click to expand...
I don't remember.

SSJ2 Gohan > 2x > One-Armed SSJ2 Gohan ~ Super Perfect Cell > Powerhouse Cell > 10x > Perfect Cell > SSJ Gohan.
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
I don't remember.

SSJ2 Gohan > 2x > One-Armed SSJ2 Gohan ~ Super Perfect Cell > Powerhouse Cell > 10x > Perfect Cell > SSJ Gohan.
Click to expand...
So why are you saying in your OP that the wiki accepts that the multiplier is 1000x if you don't even know where it was accepted or if it was accepted?
 
After thinking it over, I'll just begin drafting a sandbox to remove the 10x multiplier for Grade 3.

As for the SSJ2 and SSJ3 multipliers, I agree with the proposed changes.
 
I've always thought the arguments were kinda silly. I mean even if Toriyama was kind of pulling out-his-ass about SSJ2 and SSJ3 (not saying he was, just if you think he was), those are still official WoG statements and more reliable than random scaling. And besides the multipliers are not as inconsistent as people say and I won't change my mind on that. Gohan had a rage boost on top of SSJ2 and not to mention he was holding back on Perfect Cell even as a regular Super Saiyan because he was still trying the route of a pacifist. We don't know how it would've gone if he was trying to kill Cell from the start, what we do know is that even as a casual Super Saiyan he was effortlessly keeping up with Goku and Cell fighting each other to the extent that he believed Goku was holding back, implying that even as a normal Super Saiyan at the time Gohan was already FAR stronger than Goku, and he was still tanking a full-on assault from Cell with the intention of killing Gohan while, again, still holding back. Gohan proceeding to still kill a Zenkai boosted Cell with one hand and half his power only further suggests that Gohan was just outright superior to Cell, the 2x increase on top of a blatant rage boost just outright made it unfair.

Even if we ignore literally all of that, SSJ2 was originally meant to just be Gohan's unreleased potential, it wasn't implied to just be the natural ascension above SSJ that any Saiyan can obtain at the time and the addition of it as a regular Saiyan form only came later, it's very much plausible that Toriyama merely changed the multiplier, even if you think that Gohan's increase against Cell was still too immense. Toriyama's WoG statement made far after the Cell Saga outweighs our fan-theories based on visual implications. We are talking about F I C T I O N, people. It's not going to be perfectly consistent and logical like real life generally is. Take it as what it is.

SSJ3 is a bit more iffy but I think it, likewise, outweighs other perceptions we make based on our own interpretations and observations. We do not know the series better than the author writing it, or should I say, who wrote it, and the arrogance it requires to say we do is frankly astounding.

SSJG is debatable but if we did try to take it seriously I think a conservative estimation would be best.
 
I'll be following this thread; neutral for now but leaning in favor of the OP.
 
I have 2 two things to point out (Besides the current SSJG multiplier in the OP being slightly wrong, but that doesn’t matter for the arguments so its ok)

1. SSJ2 being 2x comes from Gohan losing half of his power which still counts as a multiplier.

2. SSJ2 is stated to surpass all the previous SSJ grades. So, SSJ2 would still be linked to it.

edit: so grade 3 multiplier would have to get axed for x100 since it looks like you’re trying to keep it, but you wouldn’t be able to.
 
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Just a minor point, but Kid Buu is not accepted to be above Super Buu for the manga (that would also cause a massive contradiction given base Gotenks > base Goku). Idk if this changes anything but I thought it might be good to mention.
 
Not sure about axing the 10x boost for Grade 3, but SSJ3 having a 4x multiplier is fine by me.
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu
Click to expand...
NO! That is NOT Kid Buu
hqdefault.jpg

El Manga Legendario actually has this buff Buu as his own separate version of Buu
 
Wasn't Grade 3's 10x statement specifically stated in the manga though? I recall that being the reason we made that upgrade in the first place. And 2x is a lowball since Teen Gohan specifically stated he couldn't use any more than half his strength due to one of his arms being broken by a surprise Ki blast + he went back to being a scared kid when he was shocked by his father's death + Cell coming back stronger. Hard to tell how strong Grade 4 is, but it's intended to prioritize stamina and speed, so not objectively exceeding raw power of Grade 2 or 3 but better overall. SSJ2 is supposed to be objectively better than any of the grades of SSJ1 in power and speed. SSJ3 has no hard evidence but also no real contradiction compared to SSJ2 however.

Though it is true even base PL's can fluctuate greatly and randomly with emotions with distraction, laziness, or great fear can cause durability to drop exponentially, where as rage and great willpower can grant exponential boosts. Also, Kid Buu being above Super Buu is the Anime adaptation exclusive statement. The original Manga simply says more dangerous or more out of control. Super Buu required fusions that Goku couldn't beat on his own where as SSJ3 Goku was implied to actually exceed Kid Buu in raw power, but held back by stamina limit.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Wasn't Grade 3's 10x statement specifically stated in the manga though? I recall that being the reason we made that upgrade in the first place. And 2x is a lowball since Teen Gohan specifically stated he couldn't use any more than half his strength due to one of his arms being broken by a surprise Ki blast + he went back to being a scared kid when he was shocked by his father's death + Cell coming back stronger. Hard to tell how strong Grade 4 is, but it's intended to prioritize stamina and speed, so not objectively exceeding raw power of Grade 2 or 3 but better overall. SSJ2 is supposed to be objectively better than any of the grades of SSJ1 in power and speed. SSJ3 has no hard evidence but also no real contradiction compared to SSJ2 however.

Though it is true even base PL's can fluctuate greatly and randomly with emotions with distraction, laziness, or great fear can cause durability to drop exponentially, where as rage and great willpower can grant exponential boosts. Also, Kid Buu being above Super Buu is the Anime adaptation exclusive statement. The original Manga simply says more dangerous or more out of control. Super Buu required fusions that Goku couldn't beat on his own where as SSJ3 Goku was implied to actually exceed Kid Buu in raw power, but held back by stamina limit.
Click to expand...
Do we HAVE to axe the Grade 3 multiplier to get this going then?... Maan. I just wanted your input on the new multiplier now Grade 3 is the main focus.
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
Do we HAVE to axe the Grade 3 multiplier to get this going then?... Maan. I just wanted your input on the new multiplier now Grade 3 is the main focus.
Click to expand...
If the OP is accepted then Grade 3 multiplier will be axed anyways. Best not to focus on it.
 
Damage3245 said:
If the OP is accepted then Grade 3 multiplier will be axed anyways. Best not to focus on it.
Click to expand...
Fair. Could I get a more in depth insight for your neutrality? Knowing what might be holding back on your agreement might help me arguing about it.
 
Man... Idc about this anymore, you guys do whatever you want. I've added a Grade 3 10x debunk to the OP, I won't be tally votes nor checking this shit anymore.
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
Fair. Could I get a more in depth insight for your neutrality? Knowing what might be holding back on your agreement might help me arguing about it.
Click to expand...
I'm just waiting to see if anyone else brings up any worthwhile arguments. If none arise, I'll vote in favor of the OP.
 
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