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Goku vs. Garou (Martial Arts Battle)

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Goku literally predicted Hit by assimilating his fighting styles yes styles with an s. Including the style that was stated to be difficult to read

and to whoever that said 0.1 or 0.2+ seconds are nothing. You forget these characters are MFTL+. Meaning a barrage of punches can and has been thrown within that small of a fraction
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
Goku literally predicted Hit by assimilating his fighting styles yes styles with an s. Including the style that was stated to be difficult to read

and to whoever that said 0.1 or 0.2+ seconds are nothing. You forget these characters are MFTL+. Meaning a barrage of punches can and has been thrown within that small of a fraction
Click to expand...
The thing is, when Hit use time skip, he skip to the future, literally. The visual also literally show everyone frozen in time while he skip, and to everyone else he just suddenly pop up in different place, no movement, no process. MFTL+ mean nothing
 
Vietthai96 said:
The thing is, when Hit use time skip, he skip to the future, literally. The visual also literally show everyone frozen in time while he skip, and to everyone else he just suddenly pop up in different place, no movement, no process. MFTL+ mean nothing
Click to expand...

Was it you who said fractions of a second is nothing to Garou?

Anyways, Goku predicts him via assimilating his fighting styles through stances.
 
Well ki reading is also a skill feat imo.
I remember in DBZ in Saiyan Saga when Yamcha was fighting a Saibaman and they both were fighting so fast they went invisible to Kid Gohan.
And this was in a large open desert. Fast objects are easier to observe and discern the farther away they are from you.
These guys were way past the escaping visual perception speed... and yet Piccolo reminded Gohan how he was supposed to follow the battle by relying on his ki reading.

It basically allows you to predict and visualize vastly superior enemies in speed department.
And this is something everyone in DB can do.
That's one hell of a good prediction feat.
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
This is untrue, it was done unconsciously. Correct, the clash of energy was what caused his body to break it's limits. That is because it was going to kill Goku, who was clearly unconscious as his eyes are whitened, he was falling, and after achieving the form, he had no clue what was happening to his body.
Click to expand...
I agreed it was done unconsciously. I disagreed with the idea that it is an application of skill, at least when we are comparing martial arts techniques between the two characters. It was a supernatural willpower and resistance feat, not a martial arts one.
FluffyCreatureZ said:
It prevented that by using the spirit bomb energy as a catalyst and learning a technique that the gods of destruction cannot attain easily and it was not depicted as some coincidence at all.
No it's not AP related. Ultra instinct cannot be attained by the GoDs who are master martial artist with hundreds of millions of years of experience.
Click to expand...
Not true. Beerus has attained ultra instinct, albeit an incomplete one and the gods never said it was impossible for them to attain. Just that it was very hard to do.

The millions of years of experience the gods of destruction have and the impressiveness of the feat is kind of rendered moot. Whiz's explanation kind of takes the winds out of that sale, considering Goku only attained the feat out of sheer coincidence.
 
CosmicWreck said:
I agreed it was done unconsciously. I disagreed with the idea that it is an application of skill, at least when we are comparing martial arts techniques between the two characters. It was a supernatural willpower and resistance feat, not a martial arts one.

Not true. Beerus has attained ultra instinct, albeit an incomplete one and the gods never said it was impossible for them to attain. Just that it was very hard to do.

The millions of years of experience the gods of destruction have and the impressiveness of the feat is kind of rendered moot. Whiz's explanation kind of takes the winds out of that sale, considering Goku only attained the feat out of sheer coincidence.
Click to expand...
No that's wrong. Ultra instinct is an advanced martial arts technique which requires a ridiculous amount of skill and experience. Goku's body is so honed to the degree that it achieved this level in response to being threatened with death. This means Goku's body is naturally at the level of skill required to unlock this technique.
This is true because ultra instinct is not achieved through an exhausting stimulous, but through martial arts training, which is why Goku's body breaking it's limits is considered a skill feat.

I did not say it can't be attained, in the literal last paragraph I said it couldn't be attained easily.
It prevented that by using the spirit bomb energy as a catalyst and learning a technique that the gods of destruction cannot attain easily and it was not depicted as some coincidence at all.
Click to expand...
And besides, beerus' version is too trivial to the point where beerus does not consider himself to have attained it.
It's literally not a coincidence when Goku's body used the spirit bombs energy as a catalyst. Else anyone pushed to their limits would have unlocked ultra instinct already.
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
Well ki reading is also a skill feat imo.
I remember in DBZ in Saiyan Saga when Yamcha was fighting a Saibaman and they both were fighting so fast they went invisible to Kid Gohan.
And this was in a large open desert. Fast objects are easier to observe and discern the farther away they are from you.
These guys were way past the escaping visual perception speed... and yet Piccolo reminded Gohan how he was supposed to follow the battle by relying on his ki reading.

It basically allows you to predict and visualize vastly superior enemies in speed department.
And this is something everyone in DB can do.
That's one hell of a good prediction feat.
Click to expand...
Bro don't even get me started on that. I'll post more feats soon. I'm not done yet.
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
No that's wrong. Ultra instinct is an advanced martial arts technique which requires a ridiculous amount of skill and experience.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure I implied I agreed with that.
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Goku's body is so honed to the degree that it achieved this level in response to being threatened with death. This means Goku's body is naturally at the level of skill required to unlock this technique.
Click to expand...
Except Whis literally taught him that skill before and he was unable to use it. He was only able to unlock the abilities under artificial conditions. By its very definition it cannot be considered a natural level of skill, at least initially.
FluffyCreatureZ said:
This is true because ultra instinct is not achieved through an exhausting stimulous, but through martial arts training, which is why Goku's body breaking it's limits is considered a skill feat.
Click to expand...
Except we know training wasn't nearly enough for Goku to reach it since he trained with Whis long before the tournamnent. He had to endure the Spirit bomb to actually break his limits, which is not a skill feat by itself. Again, at least not initially.
FluffyCreatureZ said:
I did not say it can't be attained, in the literal last paragraph I said it couldn't be attained easily.
Click to expand...
Er....

Doing something, then saying you didn't do something while deleting your comment so no one can check whether or not you're statement is true is disingenuous. I just quoted the part of the post I found relevant. It doesn't change the fact that you contradicted yourself earlier.
FluffyCreatureZ said:
And besides, beerus' version is too trivial to the point where beerus does not consider himself to have attained it.
Click to expand...
That's the manga canon. This was never stated in the anime canon which we use, and was in fact contradicted.
FluffyCreatureZ said:
It's literally not a coincidence when Goku's body used the spirit bombs energy as a catalyst. Else anyone pushed to their limits would have unlocked ultra instinct already.
Click to expand...
This is the reason I was so confused earlier. You continue to contradict yourself. Ultra instinct is not some kind of Goku special. Whis is the one who taught him it in the first place and all the other angels probably have it to.
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Bro don't even get me started on that. I'll post more feats soon. I'm not done yet.
Click to expand...
I'm waiting. I mean, my guy, instinctual movement is considered impressive for beings millions of years old. I very much doubt this verse has anything to top Garou's high end martial arts feats.
 
When Hit skips time, time stands still relative to him. His attacks come at immeasurable speed when using timeskip and Goku still countered that via prediction with finite speed. It doesn't make any sense but it is still a feat

Goku also created 1 martial art on the spot by mimicking animal movements to counter Roshi's drunken fist.

He also copies Roshi's afterimage technique and King Chappa's technique after seeing it once and even improved them.

Goku and Garou will copy each other but Goku's ki sense is pretty brutal: It's Spider sense, Radar sense and Naruto's negative emotion sensing in one ability.
 
CosmicWreck said:
Pretty sure I implied I agreed with that.

Except Whis literally taught him that skill before and he was unable to use it. He was only able to unlock the abilities under artificial conditions. By its very definition it cannot be considered a natural level of skill, at least initially.

Except we know training wasn't nearly enough for Goku to reach it since he trained with Whis long before the tournamnent. He had to endure the Spirit bomb to actually break his limits, which is not a skill feat by itself. Again, at least not initially.

Er....

Doing something, then saying you didn't do something while deleting your comment so no one can check whether or not you're statement is true is disingenuous. I just quoted the part of the post I found relevant. It doesn't change the fact that you contradicted yourself earlier.

That's the manga canon. This was never stated in the anime canon which we use, and was in fact contradicted.

This is the reason I was so confused earlier. You continue to contradict yourself. Ultra instinct is not some kind of Goku special. Whis is the one who taught him it in the first place and all the other angels probably have it to.
Click to expand...
Yes, he was unable to before, not then. Said "artificial conditions" are not the cause of the transformation, they are the catalyst which is stated. The actual cause is Goku's body's potential which was released due to him breaking his limits. He just needed a push, and his body was able to unconciously learn the technique in response to the threat.

Yes, long before the tournament. Enduring the spirit bomb is not a skill feat, that's not even the argument I'm making, it's how his body went on to counter the spirit bomb.

What the hell are you talking about? I didn't delete anything. You said I said something while quoting me saying the contrary. In one of the paragraphs I just happen to not write the "easily" after the "attained".

Both anime and manga can be used in the OP. And anime beerus doesn't know UI anyway which makes it moot.

I did not contradict myself. And UI is not a Goku special, I didn't even imply that. I just said that pushing ones limits is not a criteria to unlock UI.
CosmicWreck said:
I'm waiting. I mean, my guy, instinctual movement is considered impressive for beings millions of years old. I very much doubt this verse has anything to top Garou's high end martial arts feats.
Click to expand...
Throughout this thread, I have brought skill feats that rival or surpass Garou's. Just because garou exceeds Goku in one aspect does not mean he surpasses Goku. But that's a horrid example anyway because Goku's ultra instinct is very high above baseline. The scaling chain looks like this.

Baseline instinctive reaction = Beerus' shit UI < base Goku's UI < SSJ < SSJ2 < SSJ3 < SSG < SSB < TOP UI sign < Mastered Ultra Instinct < moro arc UI < Granolah arc UI.
And it's feats are powerful enough to make base Goku able to dodge attacks that SSJ vegeta had trouble with which is a 50x gap in speed.
Or do crazy shit like keep up with granolah who is much stronger and faster than him with the capability of one shotting him with a single attack by doing micro movements to prevent himself from getting hit. This would surpass garou fighting while asleep.

Anyway more feats. DB characters can move fast enough to disappear from comparable opponents'ine of sight. This is done every time a snap vanish is used, and as you probably know, literally every fighter, even novices, can keep up with fighters moving FTE to them.
Goku takes this by reacting to a literal glare the moment it happens from a much faster opponent. He takes this even further by dodging a kilometer wide blast at point blank range the moment it exploded.
This is also demonstrated when Goku overwhelms tien (an equal in speed fighter) who has 4 arms by doing a technique which makes his 2 arms appear like 8 arms which is basically 16 simultaneous attacks from one fighter.
Goku is also capable of skill stomping martial artist such as when he clapped king chappa and viewed him as fodder, king chappa is considered stupendously skilled among master martial artists, and he won the entire budokai without getting tagged once by his opponents.
He also scales to matching roshi, the same person who skill stomped a 30 dan in kenpo which is insane scaling chain of stomps (I think an 8 dan is the highest level in real life or something I don't remember).
Korin skill stomped the shit out of roshi by preventing him from getting water and not getting touched for 3 years straight. Goku achieved the feat of getting the water from korin in only 3 days and surpassed korin.
There's more but I'm tired. That's enough.
 
Vietthai96 said:
The thing is, when Hit use time skip, he skip to the future, literally. The visual also literally show everyone frozen in time while he skip, and to everyone else he just suddenly pop up in different place, no movement, no process. MFTL+ mean nothing
Click to expand...
JOLTxx said:
Hit's ability is literally time stop
Click to expand...
Uhm No.... Hit is actually stopping time and he attacks in the the short time frame that he stops time. Time skip is the name of the ability but how it works is by stopping time for 0.1 seconds
 
Vietthai96 said:
No, what the hell, what i mean is, MFTL+ or not, speed is irrelevant when it come to dealing with hax
Click to expand...
Yes it is irrelevant... But with MFTL+ speed 0.1 seconds is plenty of time for Hit to do all sorts of attacks. if he wasn't fast enough the short time frame of 0.1 seconds where time is stopped he wouldn't be able to use it efficiently as he was shown to
 
JOLTxx said:
Yes it is irrelevant... But with MFTL+ speed 0.1 seconds is plenty of time for Hit to do all sorts of attacks. if he wasn't fast enough the short time frame of 0.1 seconds where time is stopped he wouldn't be able to use it efficiently as he was shown to
Click to expand...
He didn't timestop until Goku throw the Kamehameha, he skip through time, it is just that in his perspective everything is stop in time, in everyone else perspective, he disappear and pop-up at different place at the same time
 
Ironically, mash can probably compete with garou in terms of skill (Not in terms of martial arts)

When my major revision to the verse happens mash will most likely be 6-A, so a match will become possible between the two
 
LIFE_OF_KING said:
Ironically, mash can probably compete with garou in terms of skill (Not in terms of martial arts)

When my major revision to the verse happens mash will most likely be 6-A, so a match will become possible between the two
Click to expand...
Mash has some pretty decent martial arts, mainly grappling, haven’t finished the series tho.
 
Kin201 said:
Don't you think that is because UI increases Goku's speed as well? I mean I don't think Ultra Instinct allows Goku to overcome a 50x speed gap. If I'm 50x faster than Goku, then I can hit him. It's not really a matter of how much lesser my skills is.
Click to expand...
UI is, fight without the need to think, normally fighting mean you need to thinking, predicting opponent move, choosing suitable course of action to counter or whatever it is, then attack or defense, repeat. UI ignore the thinking part thus heightened reaction and movement speed. Calling it is just instinctive reacting technique is a massive downplayed and simplified
Ultra Instinct is an ultimate technique that separates the consciousness from the body, allowing it to move and fight independent of a martial artist's thoughts and emotions
Click to expand...
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
Mash has some pretty decent martial arts, mainly grappling, haven’t finished the series tho.
Click to expand...
Mash is simply "a guy who knows how to punch".

He is not like martial artist like baki or garou who do 9274928 different movements with their hand to simply get into fighting position or use some complex style
 
He's what you would call an "effective brawler", ironically he has more grappling feats than Garou (who only used a flying armbar against saitama in the webcomic and more or less that against genos in the manga). If he can get a hold of Garou or Goku they will be in a complicated situation, specially since he's above them in LS.
 
Vietthai96 said:
UI is, fight without the need to think, normally fighting mean you need to thinking, predicting opponent move, choosing suitable course of action to counter or whatever it is, then attack or defense, repeat. UI ignore the thinking part thus heightened reaction and movement speed. Calling it is just instinctive reacting technique is a massive downplayed and simplified
Click to expand...
I know UI gives one advantage in a stats equal fight because they don't need to think of their actions. But it surely doesn't allow them to overcome a 50x speed gap. Because logically, all of your attacks/movements are perceived in slow motion by someone who is 50x faster.

And it's feats are powerful enough to make base Goku able to dodge attacks that SSJ vegeta had trouble with which is a 50x gap in speed.
Click to expand...
So this example is because UI gives Base Goku a significant increase in speed.
 
Kin201 said:
Don't you think that is because UI increases Goku's speed as well? I mean I don't think Ultra Instinct allows Goku to overcome a 50x speed gap. If I'm 50x faster than Goku, then I can hit him. It's not really a matter of how much lesser my skills is.
Click to expand...
Ultra instinct does not increase speed. He is not using the form in that sequence, he is using purely the transformation which is raw instinctive reaction. Whis confirms this is how it works. So it allows Goku to dodge projectiles that fast.
Also remember gogeta was able to do this too, he dodged SSJ broly's ki blast in base then matched him in SSJ.
This might not necessarily translate to close combat speed though because the projectiles are shot from a great distance.
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Ultra instinct does not increase speed. He is not using the form in that sequence, he is using purely the transformation which is raw instinctive reaction. Whis confirms this is how it works. So it allows Goku to dodge projectiles that fast.
Also remember gogeta was able to do this too, he dodged SSJ broly's ki blast in base then matched him in SSJ.
This might not necessarily translate to close combat speed though because the projectiles are shot from a great distance.
Click to expand...
Because you seemed to imply that UI Base Goku is comparable to SSJ Vegeta in speed, I just wanted to clarify that UI Goku can't keep up with 50x faster beings and is a statue to them, regardless of how much lesser their skill in comparison to Goku himself. If that's not what you meant, then it is fine.
 
To be honest, the whole "character x learned technique that character y took 104820492409202 years to learn" thing is not such a massive factor depending on the context, it's usually just accelerated development

Garou for example is able to use a style that Bang and Bomb were only able to do when they are together. But this did not cause Garou to humiliate Bang in a confrontation, in fact the two managed to match each other for a long time

Learning something faster doesn't automatically make you superior, it's not the only factor in a skill fight. Agility, precision, momentum, analytical predication, these are all important
 
So, from what I've gathered, I think I've come to a general consensus.

Goku has better skill feats, while Garou has better applications of skill.
 
Phoenks said:
So, from what I've gathered, I think I've come to a general consensus.

Goku has better skill feats, while Garou has better applications of skill.
Click to expand...
Aka garous writer cares more about martial arts.
So far from what I gather, Goku wins a pure h2h fight decisively.
 
LIFE_OF_KING said:
Garou for example is able to use a style that Bang and Bomb were only able to do when they are together. But this did not cause Garou to humiliate Bang in a confrontation, in fact the two managed to match each other for a long time
Click to expand...
isnt goku using varaints of UI at several transformations of speed

Idk if Ki attacks count as an art in DB but its a skill Goku mastered with a glance, it took 50 years for Master roshi to master, like you said accelerated development.

But Goku not only mastered it he improved it in ways that were thought to be impossible, like the one arm kamehameha, using instant transmission while performing the kamehameha, shooting the kamehameha from his feet etc.
 
Vietthai96 said:
He didn't timestop until Goku throw the Kamehameha, he skip through time, it is just that in his perspective everything is stop in time, in everyone else perspective, he disappear and pop-up at different place at the same time
Click to expand...
lol He skips by stopping time for everyone else for a fraction of a second. It appears as you've said to everyone else. So why do you disagree that Hit doesn't time stop?
 
I'm going with Garou. Both seem to be equals in their ability to:
  1. Copy other fighter's martial arts at a glance. (Garou could have a small advantage here as he mastered difficult martial arts styles that took decades to master without even seeing them in action)
  2. Predicting other fighter's attacks. (Goku could have a small advantage as he predicted time stop, [but that's not actually as difficult as it sounds if you know your enemy's entire move set], and dodged invisible attacks.)
Sadly for Goku, he misses out on some things that Garou will benefit from:
  1. Garou's martial arts seem a lot more busted (being able to dodge attacks he physically doesn't have the speed to react to in the WC, being able to one shot his opponent with shockwaves, and he could use Bomb's martial arts to slice Goku up from a distance.)
  2. Garou has shown that he can copy someone's martial arts move to completely cancel it out. (Honestly could just be a weakness of Bomb's form.)
  3. Garou can take all that he has learned, and condense it into a single martial arts form that maximizes each form's strengths. This is something Goku has never been shown to do. Ever.
  4. While forms don't increase stats, garou's body can mutate new physical traits to make Goku's life harder. (Growing more arms, wings, and other quality of life changes.)

(I read a lot of but not all of the comments, so I may have missed something).
 
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