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Jujutsu Kaisen Hax & Addition Thread
- Thread starter Arkenis
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wait wait wait, can someone explain how "information" in this verse is conceptual at all?
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Arkenis
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- Thread starter
- #165
Another thing, the Analytic Prediction for Sorcerers is pretty obvious, If they can see the flow of ce then I think its reasonable to give them it since they'd be able to predict chakra flow or mana flow. We also need to give Sorcerers like Yuta and Gojo and Yuji and I believe Todo resistance to analytic prediction since they're flow of ce is unreadable.
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"Yes, it's as you say, they can be treated as independent from each other. But that's not the case here. Me having the power to say, remotely manipulate the data existing in a computer across the country wouldn't be conceptual manipulation. However, in this case, the "information" is directly tied to the fundamental essence of things existing in the dualities of matter and spirit. For matter to exist, it must be encoded with the proper universal information, and the same for a soul, which is directly shown with Granny being able to reform Toji's body via cursed energy manipulating the information that allowed his body to form. The fact that his "soul" was also contained in his body is evidence of information capturing the essence of both things. So it's directly touching upon the essence of a thing across reality, then it is a cross-section of information and concept."
The first thing you are talking about would be data manipulation. Information manipulation can be manipulating some kind of fundamental thing like shown here or something small like data, however information being "fundamental" doesn't mean it is "conceptual" in nature at all. You would need to prove that this "information" here is above or equal to concepts for it to be "conceptual", and from what the scan shows, it only talks about the information being fundamental to souls and matter, nothing about concepts. Concepts vary from fiction to fiction, however they all have a similar "nature" in that they are " ideas or form that encompasses the idea they embody", and the information here doesn't show anything similar or "fundamental" such as that.
"For further reading: https://vsbattles.com/threads/what-is-a-concept-exactly.127885/"
I don't like to confuse Concepts with Information, because concepts may vary but are always more fundamental than laws and such. One important thing to note about information in Jujutsu Kaisen information is that they seem to make up the soul and matter, however they aren't properly explained. By this, I mean they aren't stated to make up the more fundamentals of the world like laws, they only seem to make up the body and soul however not what normal concepts embody. Unless the information in Jujutsu Kaisen are shown to have more "authority" or make up more than soul and matter, things like causality, time, space, life, death etc. then I wouldn't agree to them being conceptual not in a million years.
The first thing you are talking about would be data manipulation. Information manipulation can be manipulating some kind of fundamental thing like shown here or something small like data, however information being "fundamental" doesn't mean it is "conceptual" in nature at all. You would need to prove that this "information" here is above or equal to concepts for it to be "conceptual", and from what the scan shows, it only talks about the information being fundamental to souls and matter, nothing about concepts. Concepts vary from fiction to fiction, however they all have a similar "nature" in that they are " ideas or form that encompasses the idea they embody", and the information here doesn't show anything similar or "fundamental" such as that.
"For further reading: https://vsbattles.com/threads/what-is-a-concept-exactly.127885/"
I don't like to confuse Concepts with Information, because concepts may vary but are always more fundamental than laws and such. One important thing to note about information in Jujutsu Kaisen information is that they seem to make up the soul and matter, however they aren't properly explained. By this, I mean they aren't stated to make up the more fundamentals of the world like laws, they only seem to make up the body and soul however not what normal concepts embody. Unless the information in Jujutsu Kaisen are shown to have more "authority" or make up more than soul and matter, things like causality, time, space, life, death etc. then I wouldn't agree to them being conceptual not in a million years.
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From what I am seeing, soul or body information is duplicated from corpses (Limited Abstract Existence Type 1), and then converted into the real thing. Is there evidence that the duplicated information makes a character's fundamental concept of existence across reality which exists independently from the body/soul/mind?
Cursed Spirits are confirmed to be created from abstract emotions and images. Evidence is needed that they are abstract emotions and images after being created.
I now agree with incorporeality.
The Analytical Prediction is there, but it is limited to specific energy systems like Nen, where you move a large portion of your overall energy to your fists when punching; furthermore it is stated to not work against an Elite Sorcerer who do full-body reinforcement. So Limited Analytical Prediction (Can predict the opponent's attacks based on how they focus their Cursed Energy to empower their attacks) would fit better.
Cursed Spirits are confirmed to be created from abstract emotions and images. Evidence is needed that they are abstract emotions and images after being created.
I now agree with incorporeality.
The Analytical Prediction is there, but it is limited to specific energy systems like Nen, where you move a large portion of your overall energy to your fists when punching; furthermore it is stated to not work against an Elite Sorcerer who do full-body reinforcement. So Limited Analytical Prediction (Can predict the opponent's attacks based on how they focus their Cursed Energy to empower their attacks) would fit better.
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No, if the information is giving something an essence or entails certain qualities then it is conceptual. Matter and spirits are obviously two giant categories with other subsets under them, but yes info underlying both matter and spirit and allowing for those qualities would 100% be conceptual.
Yes it does. Matter and spirit obviously make up the duality of existence in JjK and information underlies this.
I don't think you understand how the standards work or what is being discussed here. Matter obviously follows the laws of physics, yet it's makeup is inherently information. Same thing with the spirit which is often seen as a dichotomy regarding essence when compared to matter. Nothing in JjK exist outside of the physical/spiritual split outside of information, which once again, underlies everything below it. To quote Yuri from the thread I referenced
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Yeah, I forgot about "limited". But I imagine it works in any power system that is able to concentrate energy at specific points
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Ogami summoned Toji's body information by manipulating it with her cursed energy and separating it from his soul information. She utilized here grandson as the medium who would then be modified by the body information.
Type 2 exist simultaneously. Toji keeping his personality and being able to override with just his "body information" tells us this, and it was also explained by the principle that you can derive body/soul information from the other.
They are derived from the information of the collective conscious and cursed energy itself is capable fo directly manipulating that informational level of reality, so yeah they would scale. It is also explained that the cursed energy will be made as a byproduct of the souls in a cursed puppet stabilizing.
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So you are saying information for soul and matter are equal to abstract concepts that are the universe's most fundamental principals such as life, death, theft, destruction, time, space, causality, etc.? Type 2 CM, which "shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself."
How about the other foundations of reality and existence such as those concepts I listed above and probably a infinite more? Are these not in JJK?
you are trying to state that information for matter and soul are equal to concepts of a universe. type 2 conceptual manipulation. As I stated before, if the information in JJK is able to interact with or make up abstract things like life, death, time, space, etc etc. then I would agree, however I have yet to see anything similar of this feat.
If the standard for concepts which embodies fundamental ideas such as theft, causality, time, space, duality, etc are equal to information for matter and soul, or equal to just law manipulation, then.
I know this will be accepted, I quit with this. If a mod reads this, please delete or ban this account.
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Yes. The whole point of the body/soul talk in the series is a discussion about ontology. The "body" side would be equivalent to believing only what science can tell one, and thus any "soul" would simply be a by-product of a material universe. The spirit side (what Mahito discusses) say that the soul came before the body and is thus superior ontologically. That is not the case though which is why even "body information" can still retain things like memories, personality, will, etc. Furthermore the fact that soul and body info can be exchanged via information comprising them further highlights this point.
No, why would those things be absent from JjK? All of those things still fall under the category of "body" and "spirit" dichotomy. So it's irrelevant as they exist because those things still have "information" which allows them to be what they are.
Yes. Human bodies are material. Aka stemming from the big bang and being bound by their makeup being physical. The soul is clearly more ethereal and comprises things such as personality, will, memories, etc. Information unifies this dichotomy acting as the base for both of them to manifest in their various forms. Since information is defining this essence, it is inherently conceptual.
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All right then, I guess those might sound valid enough with those apparent universal standards in this site. Those are probably the most combat inapplicable cases of Information Manipulation and Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation I’ve ever seen from a series, and that I reckon only Gojo, Mahito, Ogami and a few others would have combat applicable examples of such abilities based on their feats/scans, but I guess they seem valid enough.
While I still find it strange that Information Manipulation is equated to Conceptual Manipulation as a universal standard when concepts do indeed vary from fiction to fiction (with the same applying to information for it varying from fiction to fiction), I’ll just leave that to some potential CRT for either I or someone else to address in the future. As of now, I’ll just resign myself to this type of apparent standard.
However, considering there are justifications from profiles of Sorcerers such as Nanami that can protect themselves from Mahito’s spiritual and biological attacks, should this mean that Grade 1 Sorcerers of Nanami’s ilk and Sorcerers of higher grade than Grade 1 would have Resistance to Information Manipulation and Conceptual Manipulation using that standard due to both both body and souls being fundamentally information (with Mahito being able to manipulate souls, which changes bodies in accordance subsequently, which both are comprised of information) via using Cursed Energy?
Considering that Mahito can still possibly bypass such a protection if he successfully performed more than one spiritual attacks to Sorcerers of such ilk, it could either be a Limited Resistance or Mahito’s Idle Transfiguration upscaling above the baseline of such abilities.
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Now that conceptual manipulation is a thing in the verse, will Mahito get a regeneration upgrade? (From Low-Godly to Mid-Godly)
Theendzero13
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Don't think so, he still needs a soul to regenerate and if his soul gets damaged enough he dies, that goes against the concept(pun intended) of mid-godly
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This would give sorcerors NPI with concepts via cursed energy and sorcerers on par with Nanami resistance to their conceptual info being messed with as of the current info. Should also apply to Domain expansion due to it being a reflection of the content of the soul/mind (Innate Domain as said by Sukuna) in metaphysical space.
It is a case-by-case basis. In this case info underlying matter and spirit would qualify.
Yep
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From the scan you've posted, I take it that much each body has its own individual information, no? Apologies if that's already been addressed, but if the former holds, I'm not sure if that would qualify as Conceptual Manipulation anymore, since as far as I know the ability itself is moreso aimed at manipulating universal essences that apply to a wide category of things (i.e manipulating the essence of an "apple" to alter everything that participates in it, whether physically or just on the mental level), rather than individual ones. The latter would be a similar ability in functionality, but wouldn't really be indexed as such because of these specifics.
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Each person has information that comprises their being. So a mix of "soul" and "body" info that are interchangeable. So Toji's essence was still a part of his body information that summoned him. Similarly, corpse puppets can become self-aware entities by "duplicating spirit info from physical info". The cursed spirits once again are manifestations of human images [2] and emotions [2] about specific phenomena taking form based on said info. They don't fear death as they will be reborn again in essence.
Then there is innate domain/domain expansion. Innate domains are metaphysical spaces (seemingly outside of physical reality) existing as a conceptual reflection of their users. By using cursed energy these can be expanded to the environment by creating a special space reflecting the innate domain in reality.
So basically all of this suggests that everything exists with certain data that structure matter and spirit depending on how they are mixed, and are also interchangeable. Similar to in MT the physical/spiritual split is illusory and everything is fundamentally data. Which should qualify for concept stuff given the question answered by Yuri here:
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Bump
Sorcerers are able to make curse energy flow into their bodies to create a defense "shield" and increase physical strength. Therefore, in the same way as curses, nothing without cursed energy should be able to harm a sorcerer.
However, as everyone knows, only an elite sorcerer can create reinforcement in the whole body simultaneously, so most characters will still have vulverable parts in a fight
I would like to give limited invulnerability to sorcerers; As currently accepted, curses are invulnerable to any attack without cursed energy because they are embodied by the same concept (In the invulverability scan itself there is an analogy between curse and cursed energy)
Sorcerers are able to make curse energy flow into their bodies to create a defense "shield" and increase physical strength. Therefore, in the same way as curses, nothing without cursed energy should be able to harm a sorcerer.
However, as everyone knows, only an elite sorcerer can create reinforcement in the whole body simultaneously, so most characters will still have vulverable parts in a fight
Theendzero13
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Gojo got stabbed by a normal weapon and naoya by a punch, at best this apply to yuta
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He was stabbed by Toji's weapon, which cancels the cursed energy
Definitely not normal
Definitely not normal
Theendzero13
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Nope he got stabbed by toji regular katana as well
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As I said, the cursed energy does not constantly flow throughout the body, only in specific parts. At the moment Naoya was attacked he was at the same time concentrating the cursed energy in his kick and in his cursed technique
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If you are talking about this, there are several problems
The first is that Gojo deactivated infinity and his cursed energy because he thought everything was safe
And second that at the same instant he was stabbed Gojo says that he activated the cursed energy again to not receive any more damage (This is actually good support)
Theendzero13
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It is stated he reinforced his cursed energy not that he reactivated it, also this is weird considering he was already pierced by the attack
Theendzero13
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There is a scene where geto gets damaged by one of toji kicks i will try to find it
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Gojo deactivated the cursed energy, there was no defense of any kind. Earlier in the chapter it is established that he was on his limit. One frame before Gojo is stabbed an effect is shown that he has deactivated the cursed energy
When he says "I have reinforced my cursed energy" it is simply due to the fact that he cannot completely remove all the energy from his body. This is impossible.
Theendzero13
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that is a different katana
And that katana was not normal, since it capable to kill a curse
Theendzero13
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i am starting to believe in limited invulnerability but would like more evidence
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Shit
Not remembered that line from Gojo
Not remembered that line from Gojo
Theendzero13
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Line?
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"Daquela linha"
"Daquela fala"
"Daquela fala"
Theendzero13
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Forget about it
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I disagree w this
Theendzero13
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Can you explain?
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It is impossible to disagree. It has been established that curses (Cursed Energy) are invulnerable. If a character is able to create a cursed energy defense this defense can only be destroyed by other cursed energy, just as Megumi says.
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"Cursed Spirits are a culmination of Cursed Energy leaked from humans"
"Curses are created when Cursed Energy leaks from humans"
Curses are the cursed energy. The only way to believe that sorcerers don't have limited invulverability is by scenes without context or by not believing the point
"Curses are created when Cursed Energy leaks from humans"
Curses are the cursed energy. The only way to believe that sorcerers don't have limited invulverability is by scenes without context or by not believing the point
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