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Jujutsu Kaisen Hax & Addition Thread

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I personally think the fear manipulation is a stretch but its a trivial ability so it should be fine.
 
Dr._whiteee said:
So make of my argument what you will. But this was before I discussed the following with him:

I also spoke to Ultima about the nature of reality in JjK and he agreed JjK should get Concept manipulation types 2 & 3. This is due to the soul and body being illusory boundaries of a person's being that are both fundamentally information.

Fake Geto discusses that the soul does not predate the body as Mohito claimed and they are in fact the same. Which is evidenced by technique and the small part of Geto's info that exists in his body. Todou also echoes this sentiment when teaching Yuji about the world.

Ogami's technique was said to summon the information of Toji's body while keeping the information comprising his soul separate. Toji was still able to overcome the process and dominate the possessor's soul with only his "body information" which also allowed him to kill himself vs Megumi.

This would logically extend to curses who are manifestations of abstract emotions and "images" of phenomena.

This was from a bad translation of ch. 164. I've rescinded that since viewing the Viz translation.


One can impose rules, the other increases lethality by ensuring a hit while in the domain.
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Isn't all that basically just Information Manipulation?

I can understand Gojo having Conceptual Manipulation based on the provided scans, but those scans and explanations about body and soul being fundamentally information that is being manipulated, the soul not predating the body, dominating an another's soul through the "body information", etc. can all be simply equated to Information Manipulation.

Unless I see scans of the body and soul information being abstract in the same manner as abstract concepts, I don't see how that can't be anything more than Information Manipulation. Based on the scans, only Gojo would have Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation at best, while other characters that scales to the manipulation of the body and soul (especially to the extent of manipulation the information within them) would only have Information Manipulation. So for Curses and other Sorcerers that aren't Gojo that scales to those information feats should have Conceptual Manipulation be replaced with Information Manipulation instead.

As for the Curses being manifestations of emotions and "images" of phenomena, that can simply be Type 2 Abstract Existence of Type 3 concepts (I say them being the manifestation of Type 3 concepts being the most likely due to the existence of curses being heavily tied to Humanity's cognition and perception, since emotions are what causes them to manifest and all) instead at best. And it was explicitly stated in the Conceptual Manipulation page that characters being embodiments/manifestations of abstract concepts doesn't necessarily mean they can manipulate such concepts unless they have explicitly shown such, so those Curses would need to show that they can manipulate concepts as well in order to qualify for Conceptual Manipulation.
 
DeathNoodles said:
Isn't all that basically just Information Manipulation?

I can understand Gojo having Conceptual Manipulation based on the provided scans, but those scans and explanations about body and soul being fundamentally information that is being manipulated, the soul not predating the body, dominating an another's soul through the "body information", etc. can all be simply equated to Information Manipulation.
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Information manip and conceptual manip aren’t mutually exclusive. It says as much on the info manipulation page itself explicitly referencing concepts.

Information underlying all the physical and spiritual dichotomy means manipulation of that information is manipulation if the essence underlying existence, which is why it qualifies for concept manipulation.

The rest of your post hinges on the above so not gonna address that outside of the curses spirit stuff, but once again, them stemming from the information that underlies reality and dictates essence would means they get both abstract existence and concept stuff.
DeathNoodles said:
Unless I see scans of the body and soul information being abstract in the same manner as abstract concepts, I don't see how that can't be anything more than Information Manipulation. Based on the scans, only Gojo would have Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation at best, while other characters that scales to the manipulation of the body and soul (especially to the extent of manipulation the information within them) would only have Information Manipulation. So for Curses and other Sorcerers that aren't Gojo that scales to those information feats should have Conceptual Manipulation be replaced with Information Manipulation instead.

As for the Curses being manifestations of emotions and "images" of phenomena, that can simply be Type 2 Abstract Existence of Type 3 concepts (I say them being the manifestation of Type 3 concepts being the most likely due to the existence of curses being heavily tied to Humanity's cognition and perception, since emotions are what causes them to manifest and all) instead at best. And it was explicitly stated in the Conceptual Manipulation page that characters being embodiments/manifestations of abstract concepts doesn't necessarily mean they can manipulate such concepts unless they have explicitly shown such, so those Curses would need to show that they can manipulate concepts as well in order to qualify for Conceptual Manipulation.
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Dr._whiteee said:
Information manip and conceptual manip aren’t mutually exclusive. It says as much on the info manipulation page itself explicitly referencing concepts.

Information underlying all the physical and spiritual dichotomy means manipulation of that information is manipulation if the essence underlying existence, which is why it qualifies for concept manipulation.

The rest of your post hinges on the above so not gonna address that outside of the curses spirit stuff, but once again, them stemming from the information that underlies reality and dictates essence would means they get both abstract existence and concept stuff.
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It only references concepts for “a more complex and powerful scale” of Information Manipulation, not for all cases of Information Manipulation. In this case, you need to provide scans to prove that the body and soul information exists in a similar manner to abstract concepts and/or encompasses those abstract concepts (e.g. information being as a abstract as abstract concepts for their existence, manipulating “conceptual information” or “information of concepts”, etc.), or is else it’s just unquantifiable Information Manipulation.

Information being the essence that defines an existence by definition doesn’t mean anything in a site that’s about indexing abilities based on feats and scans. There are plenty of characters indexed in this site that has feats of Information Manipulation, and not all of them have Conceptual Manipulation - so yes, Information Manipulation and Conceptual Manipulation ARE mutually exclusive if there are not enough feats/evidence to suggests that they equivalent enough to apply, as abilities aren’t exactly assumed to be mutually inclusive unless those characters’ settings have evidence that shows otherwise. There are series indexed in this site that follows a similar logic for Information Manipulation = Conceptual Manipulation before, and some of them had revisions that got Conceptual Manipulation removed due to lack of enough evidence that suggests similarities between them.

To prove that the Information Manipulation is equivalent to Conceptual Manipulation in the JJK setting, you need to provide scans that suggests that they are equivalent. That’s all I’m asking. If you can’t provide such, then it’s just Information Manipulation for characters that aren’t Gojo that scale to manipulating Body and Soul Information. It’s not like Information Manipulation isn’t a decent hax ability on its own.
 
DeathNoodles said:
It only references concepts for “a more complex and powerful scale” of Information Manipulation, not for all cases of Information Manipulation. In this case, you need to provide scans to prove that the body and soul information exists in a similar manner to abstract concepts and encompasses those abstract concepts, or is else it’s just unquantifiable Information Manipulation.

Information being the essence that defines an existence by definition doesn’t mean anything in a site that’s about indexing abilities based on feats and scans. There are plenty of characters indexed in this site that has feats of Information Manipulation, and not all of them have Conceptual Manipulation - so yes, Information Manipulation and Conceptual Manipulation ARE exclusive if there are not enough feats/evidence to suggests that they equivalent enough to apply, as abilities aren’t exactly assumed to be mutually inclusive unless those characters’ settings have evidence that shows otherwise. There are series indexed in this site that follows a similar logic for Information Manipulation = Conceptual Manipulation before, and some of them had revisions that got Conceptual Manipulation removed due to lack of enough evidence that suggests similarities between them.

To prove that the Information Manipulation is equivalent to Conceptual Manipulation in the JJK setting, you need to provide scans that suggests that they are equivalent. That’s all I’m asking. If you can’t provide such, then it’s just Information Manipulation for characters that aren’t Gojo that scale to manipulating Body and Soul Information. It’s not like Information Manipulation isn’t a decent hax ability on its own.
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I’m mobile so cannot respond in detail but to make a long story short, you are wrong. Information that underlies reality qualifies for concept manip which I already checked through staff. Granny being able to summon toji’s lristine body by summoning his information is direct proof of this and so is panda. I already linked the relevant scans.

so you’ll need to make a crt about concept standards because jjk info stuff applies here.
 
Dr._whiteee said:
Information that underlies reality qualifies for concept manip which I already checked through staff. Granny being able to summon toji’s lristine body by summoning his information is direct proof of this and so is panda. I already linked the relevant scans.

so you’ll need to make a crt about concept standards because jjk info stuff applies here.
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If this is apparently a universal standard throughout this site, then fair enough I guess. It looks a bit strange considering Information and Concepts can be treated as different from each other rather than as the same within some settings (also doesn’t help that this site has evaluations for different types of concepts), but I’ll leave that to some potential future CRT.

However, I doubt all Curses and Sorcerers scale to these cases of Information Manipulation and Conceptual Manipulation. While it logically makes sense that Mahito, Kenjaku, Yaga (via creating Panda), Ogami and maybe Toji would scale due to them having feats that involves dabbling with Information, but I’m not sure if there are scans that suggests that every Sorcerers and their grandmothers would scale to these cases of Information Manipulation and Conceptual Information abilities…

However for Curses existing as abstract manifestations, there would need to be scans that show that they can manipulate information/concepts that they manifests from. Like the Conceptual Manipulation page have stated, being manifestations/embodiments isn’t enough of an evidence of them being able to manipulate such unless there are scans that suggests otherwise. If you know of scans that proves they could manipulate what they embody or manifest from, then feel free to provide such.
 
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DeathNoodles said:
If this is apparently a universal standard throughout this site, then fair enough I guess. It looks a bit strange considering Information and Concepts can be treated as different from each other rather than as the same within some settings (also doesn’t help that this site has evaluations for different types of concepts), but I’ll leave that to some potential future CRT.

However, I doubt all Curses and Sorcerers scale to these cases of Information Manipulation and Conceptual Manipulation. While it logically makes sense that Mahito, Kenjaku, Yaga (via creating Panda), Ogami and maybe Toji would scale due to them having feats that involves dabbling with Information, but I’m not sure if there are scans that suggests that every Sorcerers and their grandmothers would scale to these cases of Information Manipulation and Conceptual Information abilities…
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I will go into more detail tomorrow when back at my computer.
 
Thebannanaworkshop said:
but like.

can we just not agree with invinciblity for curses? they should keep incorp...and using yuji as a example is bad for obvious reasons
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Yuji ain't the point, the point is megumi seeing somebody he thinks is a random kid touching a curse and don't bathing an eye or finding it weird or saying it can't be done, curses being able choose betwenn passing throuh solid materials or breaking/ standing on them just fine , also unless somebody got a scan proving otherwise i do not think curses ever got described as being incorporeal they always say you cannot kill them not that you cannot touch them, if somebody get the scan proving that they cannot be touched please show it
 
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In places with a high concentration of negative energy it is possible to see and interact with curses as far as I remember
 
Nelliels said:
type 4 won't be necessary. Unless you can show me them doing it in a time within sba, I don't see the need to put such a thing in their profiles. tbh
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That's irrelevant the wiki's main purpose is to properly index a characters capabilities and abilities not vs battles




Also agree with everything expect resistance to emphatic manipulation and a bit iffy on invulnerability
 
LIFE_OF_KING said:
In places with a high concentration of negative energy it is possible to see and interact with curses as far as I remember
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It was states that in places with a lot of begagive feeling or in the verge of death you can see curses ,don't think touching was ever mentioned as part of it
 
DeathNoodles said:
If this is apparently a universal standard throughout this site, then fair enough I guess. It looks a bit strange considering Information and Concepts can be treated as different from each other rather than as the same within some settings (also doesn’t help that this site has evaluations for different types of concepts), but I’ll leave that to some potential future CRT.
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Yes, it's as you say, they can be treated as independent from each other. But that's not the case here. Me having the power to say, remotely manipulate the data existing in a computer across the country wouldn't be conceptual manipulation. However, in this case, the "information" is directly tied to the fundamental essence of things existing in the dualities of matter and spirit. For matter to exist, it must be encoded with the proper universal information, and the same for a soul, which is directly shown with Granny being able to reform Toji's body via cursed energy manipulating the information that allowed his body to form. The fact that his "soul" was also contained in his body is evidence of information capturing the essence of both things. So it's directly touching upon the essence of a thing across reality, then it is a cross-section of information and concept.

For further reading: https://vsbattles.com/threads/what-is-a-concept-exactly.127885/
DeathNoodles said:
However, I doubt all Curses and Sorcerers scale to these cases of Information Manipulation and Conceptual Manipulation. While it logically makes sense that Mahito, Kenjaku, Yaga (via creating Panda), Ogami and maybe Toji would scale due to them having feats that involves dabbling with Information, but I’m not sure if there are scans that suggests that every Sorcerers and their grandmothers would scale to these cases of Information Manipulation and Conceptual Information abilities…
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They would. Cursed energy can react with the information of that level meaning it's conceptual in nature. So cursed energy would gain the element of interacting with concepts. But yes, Mahito, Yaga, Ogami and the like have more exotic usages of the concept manip that would be more direct.
DeathNoodles said:
However for Curses existing as abstract manifestations, there would need to be scans that show that they can manipulate information/concepts that they manifests from. Like the Conceptual Manipulation page have stated, being manifestations/embodiments isn’t enough of an evidence of them being able to manipulate such unless there are scans that suggests otherwise. If you know of scans that proves they could manipulate what they embody or manifest from, then feel free to provide such.
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That is literally what they are. Jogo manifests from the image of volcanoes causing destruction in nature. Because he is manifest from said conceptual shared image from humans, he is able to create and manipulate information related to this concept via his cursed energy. It's also while they get reincarnated with the same fundamental nature.
 
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Theendzero13 said:
It was states that in places with a lot of begagive feeling or in the verge of death you can see curses ,don't think touching was ever mentioned as part of it
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Not being able to see something means it is not interacting with the visible range of light which would imply it's clearly not regular matter. Compiled with curses being able to manifest from regular matter, possess matter, and become intangible [2], clearly points to them being incorporeal. Megumi not being surprised at Yuji doesn't really mean much to negate that evidence.

Also, they are normally incorporeal anyway. The doughnut shop-girl literally had the spirit on her back/shoulders and directly touches the area where the curse is on her and doesn't interact with it.
 
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Dr._whiteee said:
Not being able to see something means it is not interacting with the visible range of light which would imply it's clearly not regular matter. Compiled with curses being able to manifest from regular matter, possess matter, and become intangible [2], clearly points to them being incorporeal. Megumi not being surprised at Yuji doesn't really mean much to negate that evidence.

Also they are normally incorporeal anyway. The doughnut shop-girl literally had the spirit on her back/shoulders and directly touches the area where the curse is on her and doesn't touch it.
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good point, also possession for curses.
 
Dr._whiteee said:
Not being able to see something means it is not interacting with the visible range of light which would imply it's clearly not regular matter. Compiled with curses being able to manifest from regular matter, possess matter, and become intangible [2], clearly points to them being incorporeal. Megumi not being surprised at Yuji doesn't really mean much to negate that evidence.

Also they are normally incorporeal anyway. The doughnut shop-girl literally had the spirit on her back/shoulders and directly touches the area where the curse is on her and doesn't touch it.
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Ok them, everyone else seens to agree with them being incorporeal anywhay
 
So here is a compilation for my thoughs:

-agree with what the op originally posted , but am pending on dropping resistence to emphatic manipulation going for what shadow and null said, gojo also never used domaim amplification so he only gets powernull with expansion

-agree with keeping AE2 for curses , incorporeality can stay if the rest agrees , still find it iffy but whatever

-curses should get limited or full invulnerability against non-cursed energy or non-positive energy related things

-everyone with a domain should get stats amplification, and pocket reality manipulation(except sukuna)

- everyone with a complete modern domain should get homing attack and limited law manipulation

-everyone with an old school domain should get llimited law manipulation

-Megumi should get teleportation via the new chapters

-every sorcerer should have limited resistence to soul manipulation via resisting mahito's powers and yuji's punches

-yuji should get soul manipulation , since it hits the soul that should fall under dura null as well

-just like epsilon i want the japanese raws for anything related to conceptual manipulation

-neutral leaning om agreeing with fear manipulation for curses

-Everyone with a domain gets powernull
 
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Raw for Gojo's concept stuff

The raws for the other concept stuff would be directly from the manga itself spanning the series. So using Viz should be fine in each respective chapter (I don't have access to viz).
 
Theendzero13 said:
It could be, but can also be just them seeing where there is more CE and taking the logical conclusion about from where the attack is coming
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I mean, we gave Asta Analytical Prediction for the same thing. Although it is a logical conclusion, it is explicit that for people who feel the cursed energy it is a much simpler process
 
Asta's Analytical Prediction is different.

Ki has been explicitly stated to be able to read future moves before the opponent makes them, or even outright called prediction.
 
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Again ki has statements of it being prediction and reading the opponent's future moves before they make them.

The scan you provided doesn't even say they can read the opponent's move by using cursed energy, just that one cannot predict the moves of those with great control of CE until the moment they execute it
 
LIFE_OF_KING said:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Non-Physical Interaction (Can interact with spirits, ghosts, non-corporals and curses who are abstract manifestations born out of people's thoughts, mind and negative emotions), Accelerated Development (Sorcerers are stated to improve when there are consequences to suffer. Also stated here a person can change thanks to the slightest of events. Todo, Itadori and Mahito were able to use 120 percent of their potential during a fight), Skilled Hand-to-Hand Combatant, Enhanced Senses (Sorcerers can see cursed spirits that are invisible to the human eye. Can passively sense the presence of strongest cursed energy), Energy Manipulation and Curse Manipulation (All sorcerers are capable of cursing each other and have control over curse energy), Statistics Amplification (Sorcerers can amplify their physical power by flowing cursed energy through their bodies via negative emotions. Sorcerers are able to manipulate the concentration of cursed energy to increase strenght or durability in a specific point), Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2 and 3; Any soul and body are illusory boundaries of a person's being that are both fundamentally information. Ogami's technique was said to summon the information of Toji's body while keeping the information comprising his soul separate. Toji was still able to overcome the process and dominate the possessor's soul with only his "body information" which also allowed him to kill himself vs Megumi), Rage Power (The power of the cursed energy varies depending on the negative energy), limited Invulnerability Negation (Can exorcise curses, which are invincible to anything except other curses/cursed energy), Analytical Prediction (Jujutsu characters are able to analyze their opponent's attacks by analyzing the cursed energy)

About the conceptual manipulation, I think it is better to create a better justification. The current justification doesn't show exactly what this affects on the characters

Seeing the future is not literal. He can simply see where his opponent is going to attack based on the ki flowing through his body
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"Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2 and 3; Spirit and matter are illusory boundaries of a person's being that are both fundamentally information. Ogami's technique utilized cursed energy to summon the information of Toji's body while keeping the information comprising his soul separate. Toji was still able to overcome the process and dominate the possessor's soul with only his "body information" which also allowed him to retain his innate feelings and kill himself vs Megumi. Cursed energy can interact with and manipulate the information comprising the fundamental level of existence. It can also interact with cursed spirits who are the manifested forms of images, emotions, and information stemming from collective human awareness and perceptions related to various phenomena.)"
 
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