VS Battles Wiki Forum

Pretty sure it is, if 2 characters are stated to be comparablein terms of intellect AND skill there is no reason to not let them scale. The problem is that Snake simply has no Extraordinary Genius feat that i know of and he's never stated to scale to those who do.

Ocelot never adopted Liquid's personality, it's made clear at the end of MGS4 that it was all just a 4-D chess move to outsmart the patriots, and the reason Snake managed to catch up to him skill-wise (and power-wise possibly) is Accelerated Development, which he got from Naked, this is part of the CRT and pretty much unambiguous, much more evident than Raiden's RPL (The Boss literally tells him "You've gotten stronger", "your skills have improved" throughout the fight). They weren't really slugging each other at the beginning of the fight tho, they use many techniques from many different martial arts, it only turns into a slugfest at the very end, when they are both exhausted. Big Boss outskilling Snake is definitely an anti feat, Snake was prepared (he was pointing his gun at him) and was very clearly fighting back. Snake was also most likely NOT inferior to him physically, since they were around the same physical age at that point; it's worth remembering that Big Boss was also suffering the effects of FOXDIE. But it's not just the anti feat, it's also that he got fodderised by Ocelot, who's AT BEST comparable to Big Boss in terms of skill.

We know because if Sam was more skilled he would have won. Ap is kinda irrelevant in HF Blade fights, where either opponent can kill the other, so it's mainly a skill struggle, and if Sam was more skilled he would have been able to outmanoeuvre Raiden at some point and land a killing-shot.
While Raiden was indeed stronger and more durable, Sam did have the Iaido quick draw to even the odds. So the thing is not that Raiden could have won by being less skilled, it's that Sam would have had more of a shot by being more skilled, simple as that.

Well, he did beat Ocelot in a gunfight, and that's Ocelot's most treasured skill. You could argue Ocelot let him win, but I still think it counts. As for that, I really don't know.

I'm not sure if I'm sold on that AD either, but I suppose it does make sense. And if he caught up skill-wise, isn't that a skill feat for endgame Old Snake too? Besides, I believe Ocelot "became Liquid" through self-hypnosis or something like that, which means I Ocelot's intelligence-related feats might not scale to Liquid Ocelot.

As for pointing a gun at him, yes, but do consider his mental state. He was clearly broken by the fact he knew he had to kill himself, and now his old foe and mentor comes back from the dead? That'd make anyone hesitate, and the move Big Boss pulls on him is something that more or less equally skilled CQC users can pull on each other- you and The Boss can do something similar to each other in the final fight. The reason I say BB was stronger than Snake is that the latter wasn't wearing his sneaking suit( which, by his own statement that Otacon agrees to, also serves as a "muscle suit", giving him extra strength) in that scene, while he did against Ocelot. Don't get me wrong, this isn't waterproof, but I think its enough grounds for a "possibly" at least.

Edit: My bad, the sneaking suit was destroyed by the microwaves. That said, Ocelot *was* dying from FOXDIE from the first time they met after the chase scene with EVA, while Big Boss had just met Snake for the first time, and was therefore less affected.

But Raiden is also probably a whole lot faster, which is just as important in such a fight, and the two directly clash their blades one against the other multiple times, which ends in a win for Raiden every time unless you **** up the QTEs, which does imply strength did play a part in that fight. As for the quick draw, he uses it mostly at a distance in that fight, which means Raiden's possiby superior reflexes could definitely see it coming and parry. Don't get me wrong, I don't think he's massively more skilled than Raiden, but I do think everything else being in Raiden's favor is enough to say that Raiden winning doesn't necessarily prove he's more skilled. In their first clash, Sam himself realizes Raiden's problem is not his lack of skill: "Self-taught... and not half bad!", but "You deny your weapon its true purpose!" (Not that I'm denying Raiden doesn't grow in skill throughout Rising)

Also, is Ocelot gonna get AD too? If nothing else, his might be better, I mean, think about it

At the start of the game: Ocelot <<< Naked Snake <<< The Boss

And the end of the game: Ocelot <= Naked Snake <= The Boss

Though at the same time, would they be combat applicable? Even Ocelot's takes over a week for him to get to the point where he can fight Snake.

He didn't beat him tho, Gray Fox barged in before they could finish, and Ocelot's plan required Snake to be alive, so he definitely wasn't fighting to kill him/win.

There's not much to be sold on really, The Boss fights Naked in the Shagohood facility and skill-stomps him, then a few hours later they fight again, Naked is equal if not superior to her and she outright states "Your skills have improved", only way it could be more clear cut than that is if someone said "Snake has Accelerated Development".
Ocelot didn't "Become Liquid", he merely assumed his personality via self hypnosis and nanomachines, but we know from MGS5 that Ocelot is capable of double-thinking, so it's not at all a stretch to say that he just assumed his Liquid persona without hindering his personality and agenda. Also, it would make no sense that by """becoming""" liquid he would lose his intellect feats, how would Ocelot be supposed to make his plan work if he mentally became Liquid? Doesn't really make sense, along with the fact that Liquid is not more skilled than Solid and couldn't possibly have stomped him like he did.

Snake surely didn't look broken, him being broken is completely contrary to Snake's entire characterization of someone who got dealt a shitty hand in life but still fights restlessly, at best we can say that he was surprised. Yeah, but that's not really the case, such a move can be countered by a more skilled CQC user, Naked can counter that same exact move if The Boss tries it on him during the last bossfight, so if Snake was actually more skilled than BB he would have just reverted it. But the fact is that Snake's lack of strength comes from his old age, and BB is the exact same age, add to this the fact that his body is a literal patchwork of Solidus' and Liquid's body parts.
He wasn't less effected, he died much quicker than Ocelot, suggesting that the FOXDIE was more aggressive against him (makes sense, he was the second most important target for the virus, and we know FOXDIE can alter itself to fit its purpose).

There's absolutely nothing that suggests Raiden being faster, nothing; stronger? Yes, more stamina and damage soak? Definitely, faster? Pure speculation, faster reflexes? Same thing, speculation. Also sword-struggles are more of a Lifting Strength thing, but whatever, the point still stands, nothing implies that Raiden is faster than Sam, and he could very well cover the AP gap with his Iaido, superior sword (longer, better dura negation) and unique technique (vacuum cuts). Had Sam been more skilled he would have had a much easier time winning than Raiden if he was less skilled .

Yeah, Ocelot is also getting AD, and I don't know whether it would be combat applicable or not, it's not clear how long it took Ocelot to develop his skills. Naked's would definitely be tho, since it kicked in within 2 hours tops

I mean, in the fight itself you do still repeatedly manage to shoot him, wouldn't that count for something?

Fair enough, MGSV is the only one I haven't beaten yet, so I didn't know of that. Still, doesn't that just mean Snake did indeed beat Ocelot fair and square, even after all those microwaves?

Did you see the previous scene? Snake knows he has to kill himself, and doesn't care to live anymore, yet he still can't quite muster the strength to do so, even though he knows there's little future left for him anyway. It's obvious he was at his limit, nevermind that he was indeed surprised a whole lot by Big Boss returning. As for their physical stats, consider the sheer amount of physical trauma Snake went through, and how faster, uncontrolled aging would be more damaging for one's body than regular one. I mean, if you need any proof, look at how many syringes Snake has to use in the final fight, and that's against a foe that's just as weakened as him. Big Boss was also affected by FOXDIE faster, yes, but I don't believe it was quite kicking in when he used CQC on him. I mean, when it's affecting you, it's pretty damn blatant, but BB was all composed and everything, and only started showing the signs of it after a while.

Do we actually know how long MGS3 is? In-verse, I mean. Though, most battles aren't gonna last anywhere near two hours anyway, in here.

Raiden has a cyborg body, Sam mostly does not. Raiden has Ripper Mode, which amps speed and reflexes, Sam does not. And yeah, when I said strength I specifically meant Lifting Strength, which Sam has absolutely no feats for, outside of scaling, and that Raiden does prove in that very battle he is superior in. And yes, Sam does have advantages, however my point is not that he doesn't, my point is that discussing which side has the better advantages is a fruitless endeavor which will never end in a clear result, and therefore saying that they were close enough that one of them needed higher skill to win is just speculation. Perhaps it makes sense, perhaps not, but we can't say for sure since there's no objective way to tell which side held the advantage when ignoring skill (though, except for his blade, which would barely matter in this fight since HF blades do not cut each other and Sam does not use its superior length to his advantage, all of Sam's advantages are indeed skill-focused.) Besides, what about Reactive Power Level? If Raiden does have that, and he indeed claims he'll use it against Sam, wouldn't that have played a part in it too?

Gah, I'm doing it again- let's just agree to discuss this in the CRT, where other people can support or fight our claims, since this one's more closely related to it?

No, it wouldn't. shooting someone doesn't count as outskilling him, especially when the person you're shooting is going out of his way to not kill you.

Yes it does, but it doesn't necessarily mean that he's more skilled, since throughout the fight they are shown to be comparable, and what ultimately kills Ocelot is FOXDIE, so end of MGS4 Solid is comparable to Ocelot.

Broken or not, Snake doesn't show any sign of hesitation or instability during their small confrontation, and it's not like BB got the jump on him or blind-sided him.
The Syringes are to suppress the old nanomachines, they have little correlation with physical stats themselves, and some time had passed between the Ocelot fight and the cemetery, Snake had plenty of time to rest and recover. Don't forget that Big Boss' body had just been put back together using pieces of Solidus and Liquid, and he had just woken up from a decades-long coma, he wasn't even close to peak condition (not that his old body could even be considered "peak condition", but you get what i mean). FOXDIE effects you immediately, the problem is that the way in which it kills is heart-attack, so of course before this happens it doesn't really look like anything's wrong, but the target's cells are already going through apoptosis.
But whether or not this counts as an anti-feat or not is irrelevant, because even if it wasn't, Snake doesn't have feats that put him on the same skill level as BB, especially before the end of MGS4.

A few days I believe. A week passed between the Virtuous mission and the Snake Eater operation. It's quite common for battles to last several hours actually, and since Naked has the stamina to fight for that long, it's entirely possible that it could make a difference.

Yeah, a cyber body that enhances his stamina and strength, but there's no canonical evidence that Raiden used Ripper Mode in his fight with Sam, if he did he would have BM'd Sam into paste instantly. What Raiden has going for himself during the fight is higher strength and stamina, period. Sam's advantages are not skill-focussed, they are technique-focussed, big difference, nothing implies that Raiden couldn't use vacuum cuts or the Iaido draw if he wanted to, he simply doesn't use them. And no, RPL wouldn't play a part, because it's AP based and AP was irrelevant in the fight
The deal here is that we have 2 opponents who could both end the fight in a single swing, each fighter had advantages: Raiden: stronger and better stamina/damage soak (kinda irrelevant since each strike would be enough to incapacitate him permanently, which would simply render his damage-soak useless), Sam: Iaido quick-draw, better sword overall, vacuum cuts. They have the same speed however, which removes the most important factor. In such a fight, skill is the single most important attribute and saying that the winner was less skilled is a leap in logic, especially when nothing throughout the fight implies it, quite the contrary, Raiden disharms Sam twice, and not by overpowering him, but by skillfully parrying his attacks.