Removing CM1 from Aeons (Honkai: Star Rail)

[Robo432343]

i know but i think staff members are not interested due to how many pages there are
thats why i think you should make a summary CRT

 

[SuperNova55555]

i know but i think staff members are not interested due to how many pages there are
thats why i think you should make a summary CRT

I can make a staff thread if that’s possible

 

[Antvasima]

I’ll just be writing them cuz I’m kind of tired right now but if you need scans, proof or literally anything about my points, I would be GLAD to give them to you.

My main contentions are:

• There is nothing to indicate that Aeons or Paths ground any particulars or notions of the concepts they represent.
  • The particulars themselves not only can exist before an Aeon or Path is created, but also after they die.
    • For example, you could destroy things before Nanook the Destruction was born.
  • Aeons are merely called “representations” or “embodiments” of a certain philosophy and that’s it.
  • Paths are merely the energy released from an Aeon after they ascend and create it from Imaginary.
    • I have addressed in the OP how Imaginary is not inherently conceptual, rather some concepts can be Imaginary, instead. The current description in the blogs mistakenly words it the former.
  • Multiple Paths can overlap the same concepts, meaning neither of them can individually be the universal.
• Irontomb can destroy the Erudition through its particulars.
  • This is done by attacking intelligent life and civilizations across the universe, thereby putting the Erudition into disarray, and by “tracing back the Path Energy to Nous”.
    • Lygus explains that Erudition refers to the ability of intelligent life to phenomenally observe various concepts in the universe.
      • The opposition mistakenly asserts these “concepts” are universals when they are merely referring to categories of objects that are privy to phenomenal observation.
• There is no proof any universal exists, even outside of Aeons. As far as the verse is concerned, no concept is said to ground anything in the universe.
  • Though unrelated to HSR, the opposition brings up the Authority of Finality from HI3. The argument is that it governs all of time, whilst being unaffected by it.
    • Yet, if you would check the scans they have provided. You’d realize that this is merely a product of Time Manipulation. As in, they are unaffected because they control Time.
      • In fact, one the scans say that Project Sigma attempts to contain it through Time. Though, I am unaware of what this is referring to since I haven’t played the game. But it still sounds rather suspicious.
    • Additionally, the opposition themselves admitted that Time predated Finality, so it by definition cannot ground Time. This just adds to my belief that all it is, is merely Time Manipulation and that’s that.
      • So after doing some research (that is, reading the wiki), it ends up that Finality is just something the Cocoon creates at the end of a temporal cycle to reset it. That’s why there are “previous Herrschers of Finality”. I don’t believe I have to explain why this isn’t CM1 lol.
  • They also brought up a scan about saying how some realms have a different concept of Time.
    • Problem is that the opposition completely fails to elaborate on what this means. It can either be that there exists an actual abstracta that is different across realms, or it could be in a more nominal sense where it’s just saying that the physical constant of Time works differently in separate worlds. The “concepts” here remain completely unqualified and considering the opposition has not brought forth any context on them likely means that it is just a 1-off nominal mention.
      • To add proof on the latter interpretation: we already have an example of different “time” with Imaginary Space. And all that is, is that time functions like a spatial dimension. There’s nothing CM here.
        • Also mind you, this same place where you can move in time like a spatial dimension is the same place where the supposed “CM1” is located at.
• The conceptual human problem.
  • The original blog tries to posit the case of an abstract/conceptual human as proof for CM1.
    • Damming, specifically, is one scan that says that “Ideas can shape Reality, but seldom it is the opposite.” This is itself, an anti-feat.
• So, what is the proof for CM1?
  • Universal range. That’s literally all there is.
• Generally, what even is “Imaginary”?
  • It is merely the primary substance that makes up the Imaginary Tree a.k.a the cosmos.
    • “Before the theory of Imaginary Tree was put forward, the universe had been addressed as "a void and indiscernible object" because of its undetectable nature. After the theory was developed, people would visualize its principle using imagination: The untamed imaginary energy surges endlessly through space-time vasculature, and forms at its tips "star clusters" that humans can understand — in other words, countless worlds. The worlds are separated from each other just as leaves are separated by air, between which are unknown imaginary domains that are nigh impossible to traverse.”
  • An Aeon, when ascending, simply gains the ability to control this Imaginary Energy in respect to their Pathway/Philosophy.

These are basically the main contentions. There might be a few other stuff I haven’t mentioned here but I believe that they are so irrelevant to the topic that they need no addressing. But if you do need me to address them or to address anything the opposition brings up, I’d be more than glad to do so.

@ActuallySpaceMan42 @Nierre @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless @Imaginym @Vietthai96 @Godernet

Are any of you willing to help evaluate this please?

 

[Antvasima]

Sure, I don’t mind.

I updated your forum username so it is now the same as in our wiki.

 

[SuperNova55555]

@ActuallySpaceMan42 @Nierre @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless @Imaginym @Vietthai96 @Godernet

Are any of you willing to help evaluate this please?

By the way, I’ll soon be making another thread so that Aeons no longer scale to the whole cosmology, which would be an even bigger disqualifier for CM1, including all the stuff listed in there.

But I guess it’s irrelevant atm until that thread itself gets accepted.

 

[Antvasima]

@Emirp sumitpo

Your help would also be appreciated here.

 

[Antvasima]

By the way, I’ll soon be making another thread so that Aeons no longer scale to the whole cosmology, which would be an even bigger disqualifier for CM1, including all the stuff listed in there.

But I guess it’s irrelevant atm until that thread itself gets accepted.

Okay.

 

[Vietthai96]

@ActuallySpaceMan42 @Nierre @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless @Imaginym @Vietthai96 @Godernet

Are any of you willing to help evaluate this please?

Hmm, after a long read, downgrade to CM3 is fine to me

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Rabbit2002]

@SuperNova55555 So what about Souls? It seems that even though Path is no longer Concept type 1, Soul still has Concept type 1 (and a gazillion characters with Concept type 1 simply because they interact with souls in some way).

Conclusion: Souls are something more metaphysical in HoYoverse, being described as data of consciousness and have several statements and showings equating them with minds. Both have shown to be able to create entire realms made of fundamental information, with this information being contained in the souls, the latter being presented as conceptual, which is supported by Stigmas (which would make it a Type 1 Concept; STIGMAs are an Imaginary Concept -- will be thoroughly revealed in the Project Stigma section)

HoYoverse Cosmology

The following page will go in-depth to explore the cosmology of the main Hoyoverse metaseries; this following explanation blog will mainly delve into the fundamentally major contents of Honkai Impact 3rd and Honkai: Star Rail and will apply to the verses as mentioned earlier plus Zombiegal...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Mbpoops]

@SuperNova55555 So what about Souls? It seems that even though Path is no longer Concept type 1, Soul still has Concept type 1 (and a gazillion characters with Concept type 1 simply because they interact with souls in some way).

Just nuke those characters aswell simple :3

 

[SuperNova55555]

@SuperNova55555 So what about Souls? It seems that even though Path is no longer Concept type 1, Soul still has Concept type 1 (and a gazillion characters with Concept type 1 simply because they interact with souls in some way).

Just nuke those characters aswell simple :3

I already said they should be nuked too. But I guess they haven’t been ‘properly’ addressed in this thread so they gotta wait.

 

[Mbpoops]

I already said they should be nuked too. But I guess they haven’t been ‘properly’ addressed in this thread so they gotta wait.

I missed this then but alrighty

 

[Rabbit2002]

I already said they should be nuked too. But I guess they haven’t been ‘properly’ addressed in this thread so they gotta wait.

Do you mean waiting for another CRT?

 

[SuperNova55555]

Do you mean waiting for another CRT?

Probably. I don’t see mods caring enough to look at it in this thread.

 

[Voidnether]

• Abstract Existence (Type 2; All devils are born from a "name" - concepts derived from humanity fears that the devil embodies. These concepts can range anywhere from highly tangible such as guns & spiders to highly abstract such as control & violence)

Making Aeons to be the equivalent of concept type 3 like CSM is lowkey insane when you know, Erudition created concepts like time, space and matter then these same concepts that are perceived by Erudition makes up reality (especially matter here which is directly stated)

Unfortunately the closest thing you could get to a CM2 (at the very least), if the downgrades were meant to make everything as inaccurate as possible instead of making them accurate then there's no difference really tbh when you could go for the bare minimum but you don't somehow but sure I'll let you have your fun this time

 

[Vietthai96]

Making Aeons to be the equivalent of concept type 3 like CSM is lowkey insane when you know, Erudition created concepts like time, space and matter then these same concepts that are perceived by Erudition makes up reality (especially matter here which is directly stated)

Just because it slap the text concept into the statement doesn't mean it is always mean literal fundamental concept. And no, the statement didn't say Erudition created them, these "concepts" exists sole because people perceive them, this a huge anti-feat again CM as a whole, because concept must exist indepedent from mind, if concept only exist because people perceive them that mean it is idealism and nominalism, not universal

 

[Voidnether]

Just because it slap the text concept into the statement doesn't mean it is always mean literal fundamental concept. And no, the statement didn't say Erudition created them, these "concepts" exists sole because people perceive them, this a huge anti-feat again CM as a whole, because concept must exist indepedent from mind, if concept only exist because people perceive them that mean it is idealism and nominalism, not universal

The same matter that makes up reality? Come on, you do know the universe would be a blank canvas if Erudition never existed at all since the concept of space and time wouldn't exist, matter would cease to exist (which is what's directly stated to make up reality)

Concept of space and time to be a type 3 concept with evidence that the concept of matter there literally is stated to make up reality functionally cannot work at all

Also idealism cannot exist in Honkaiverse, nominalism also can't since Erudition here governs all concepts with the concept of matter here stated directly to make up reality, which would mean the concept of space and time there would also be on the same level

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Just because it slap the text concept into the statement doesn't mean it is always mean literal fundamental concept. And no, the statement didn't say Erudition created them, these "concepts" exists sole because people perceive them, this a huge anti-feat again CM as a whole, because concept must exist indepedent from mind, if concept only exist because people perceive them that mean it is idealism and nominalism, not universal

There is something wrong with your assumption, though.

The perception it is talking about isn't just simply tied to the mind, else
Even if they as a human mind perceive nothing, reality wouldn't delve into chaos

But in here, it is assumed so. So there is a direct implication that the perception he is talking about is how reality is delivered towards human perception, not human perception towards reality.

 

[Vietthai96]

The same matter that makes up reality? Come on, you do know the universe would be a blank canvas if Erudition never existed at all since the concept of space and time wouldn't exist, matter would cease to exist (which is what's directly stated to make up reality)

So just because time, space and matter make up reality, they must be concepts??, no that isn't simple as that

There is something wrong with your assumption, though.

The perception it is talking about isn't just simply tied to the mind, else
Even if they as a human mind perceive nothing, reality wouldn't delve into chaos

But in here, it is assumed so. So there is a direct implication that the perception he is talking about is how reality is delivered towards human perception, not human perception towards reality.

What? It isn't even an assumption, it is literal written in the scan, the statement itself

Concept of space and time to be a type 3 concept with evidence that the concept of matter there literally is stated to make up reality functionally cannot work at all

They aren't concept, simple as that, let alone type 3

 

[Robo432343]

someone ping @Reiner04

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

What? It isn't even an assumption, it is literal written in the scan, the statement itself

You assumed it still tied to the mind without acknowledging that the mind and perception is closely tied to how reality would function
that is what I'm saying. it is no longer just idealism

the same way one perceives the existence of a circle because a true circle exist but that doesn't mean the true circle is something that can exist in their perceived reality

ALSO KNOWN AS THE ALLEGORY OF THE CAVE

 

[Addipuss]

someone ping @Reiner04

you just did lol

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

someone ping @Reiner04

I gotchu

@Reiner04

 

[Mbpoops]

you just did lol

Unfortunately our pings dont work for staff.

 

[Addipuss]

I gotchu

@Reiner04

and now you just did poor guy got ping 2 times and hes going to have worst time ever. with so many crt and everyone mod i feel we need redo this entire verse i mean all hsr comes together and nuke it and not just nuke.. dimension break it and remake it... like god so many crt and so many downgrades which bs.. i heck.. supernova upgraded to low 1a.. which should not been done yet with so many crt and it got accepted by same people.. btw... and same person make crt one month later to downgrade it all to 5d... and someone downgrade it to 3a or under 2c heck in not even 3 month passed i mean and one crt we cm.. we got nep ix. and too many crts... excluding some upgrades for genshin etc... and ofc downgrades like like god dang.. tbh i cant blame them just wont crap be over though its as someone said if your fav verse its get upgraded if not its get downgraded that pretty really how it goes.. because suppost limts how many crt there are and even during downground more way pass the limit and yet still do accepted or ignore it..

Unfortunately our pings dont work for staff.

oh well still

 

[Addipuss]

Unfortunately our pings dont work for staff.

what do think of what i said i feel we all come together delete it and redo it... because at this point nothing get done and just be same.. more crt will come and mods ignore it.. other crt like this nep ix and bunch other still coming.. or still being done

 

[Mbpoops]

what do think of what i said i feel we all come together delete it and redo it... because at this point nothing get done and just be same.. more crt will come and mods ignore it.. other crt like this nep ix and bunch other still coming.. or still being done

I wouldnt mind redoing it since i wasnt here when the thread was made but thats not up to me. Id ask nova since he made the thread

 

[Mbpoops]

I wouldnt mind redoing it since i wasnt here when the thread was made but thats not up to me. Id ask nova since he made the thread

Wait you were talking abt the verse . Uhhh i wouldnt say delete and redo thats way too much work

 

[SuperNova55555]

There is something wrong with your assumption, though.

The perception it is talking about isn't just simply tied to the mind, else
Even if they as a human mind perceive nothing, reality wouldn't delve into chaos

But in here, it is assumed so. So there is a direct implication that the perception he is talking about is how reality is delivered towards human perception, not human perception towards reality.

The scan is saying that meaning is derived from someone perceiving something. If noone existed to perceive the universe, it would merely just exist and nothing else. It would then just be a bunch of words in a book written randomly that noone would exist to interpret.

 

[Voidnether]

So just because time, space and matter make up reality, they must be concepts??, no that isn't simple as that





What? It isn't even an assumption, it is literal written in the scan, the statement itself


They aren't concept, simple as that, let alone type 3

How did you go from "Just because it slap the text concept into the statement doesn't mean it is always mean literal fundamental concept" to literally this in a split second?

Just kidding. What I mean to say is that time, space, matter... all concepts exist solely because we perceive them. This is called the "Erudition." Without it, the universe would merely be a chaotic book, written by chance. yet unread by anyone.

It is elaborated upon in the same sentence that time, space, matter are concepts with everything else in relations to this solely exist because of Erudition. Say, since the act of perceiving these concepts are called Erudition which you argued only to be CM3 or not CM at all (when there are statements about Paths being a philosophical concept) and especially a powersource that their Pathstriders and Emanators could draw into (which means it's neither nominalism nor idealism) since you can obtain a plethora of abilities through drawing upon a Path's power. What more do you have to say by this point? If you even want to argue they're not universal in nature (as in the entire Honkaiverse) even though you clearly could have CM2 despite it only governing a single planet, I am pretty sure Erudition dictates that the branches can be infinite (obviously MWI) but there's only one timeline in which all the timelines from the previous points converge into this given the branches and the leaves are the "present" and Erudition dictates the future

In total, I only brought 4 scans, not even 20+ or so but I'm actually concerned how these are misinterpreted so badly that you started going from this premise to another premise which are both debunked with the exact same scan..

 

[Voidnether]

The scan is saying that meaning is derived from someone perceiving something. If noone existed to perceive the universe, it would merely just exist and nothing else. It would then just be a bunch of words in a book written randomly that noone would exist to interpret.

??? There's no "meaning" in here, the act of perceiving all concepts in the universe is called the Erudition, without Erudition then there's no concepts, the universe is empty and the same concept such as space, time and matter because it'd genuinely be insane if these aren't concepts despite them being stated that way on the same sentence and this Erudition concept governs every concept in the universe in particular that shapes up reality and Pathstriders / Emanators of Erudition can draw plethora of abilities from this Erudition "concept" as a Path

 

[SuperNova55555]

It says concept so obviously it must be a platonic form duhhh

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Yea it literally just reads out as nominalism. Hell it even implies that these things will still exist even if the observer doesn't and that these "concepts" are emergent from human perception. It doesn't require a genius to understand why that's a problem for CM lmfao. It's just the observer that gives it meaning (not in a governing fundamental way lmfao).

 

[Voidnether]

It says concept so obviously it must be a platonic form duhhh

You talk as if platonic forms are 1-A when they were never 1-A to begin with

 

[Mbpoops]

I think what lygus means is that the without persception of these concepts there would be nothing to differentiate them and Erudition lets us differentiate them otherwise all concepts would just be in a chaotic mess. If that makes sense? (I could be completely wrong though)

 

[Mbpoops]

The concepts still exist time just wouldnt be named time space would t be named space etc

 

[Voidnether]

Yea it literally just reads out as nominalism. Hell it even implies that these things will still exist even if the observer doesn't and that these "concepts" are emergent from human perception. It doesn't require a genius to understand why that's a problem for CM lmfao.

Where did you get the part it's "implied" those things will still exist if Erudition doesn't exist? It's emergent from Erudition, it doesn't take a genius either why Irontomb destroying the Path of Erudition would set the entire verse back into the stone age before fire was even discovered

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

The concepts still exist time just wouldnt be named time space would t be named space etc

Yea that's nominalism. Names or concepts are words invented by people to categorize the world around them so without that it might as well be a nameless blob

Where did you get the part it's "implied" those things will still exist if Erudition doesn't exist? It's emergent from Erudition, it doesn't take a genius either why Irontomb destroying the Path of Erudition would set the entire verse back into the stone age before fire was even discovered

It's called reading comprehension.

Just kidding. What I mean to say is that time, space, matter... all concepts exist solely because we perceive them. This is called the "Erudition." Without it, the universe would merely be a chaotic book, written by chance. yet unread by anyone.

The universe would literally still exist without the act of perceiving them which these concepts require. They're clearly not fundamental essences.

 

[Mbpoops]

But time has to exist without erudition since terminous (finality) is time