Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

[Churronzon]

Still thinking through it. Here's my thoughts for now:

True answer is yes, the possibly MFTL reaction rating will be kept after NT9.

Like his current justification, I think it should be based on things his precognition actually actives for (supernatural stuff) and for attacks he had seen/experienced prior.

saint tier will get a flat-out possibly MFTL rating due to them being > Touma in all categories

I heavily disagree with this. Saints would not be able to evade Crossbow's torrent of arrows or follow Gungnir.

No one would have been able to keep up with its overwhelming speed. Their bodies would
have been smashed to pieces before they could even hope to follow the tip of the lance
with their eyes.

But the experience he had built up accurately guided his movements.

He had achieved a surefire attack that would work on Magic God Othinus and no one else.

Kamijou Touma’s right fist was sucked in toward the one point that no one else would
have been able to reach.

His fist reached the sharp tip of Gungnir.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Snip

Isn't that already mentioned in his weakness section or am I tripping?

That's that, and this is this, Zon. Saint-related stuff is still very far away.

 

[Churronzon]

No, it isn't in the weaknesses section, or at the very least isn't made clear enough. It's better to clarify it in the speed section.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Actually... Now that I think about it... Is there any direct statement that Touma's precog only works on supernatural stuff. Like, direct direct statements that flatout states his precog is useless against non-supernatural stuff other than his showcasing against bullets that could just be PIS stuff.

 

[Churronzon]

We're only left with many showings of Touma dying and being hit by massively slower stuff even if we discount bullets for w/e reason.

Has his precog ever activated on "normal" stuff?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

We only have three "direct" mention of his precog that actively talks about it (and seemingly actives as well) rather than making passing comments about it, IIRC.

From BW!Accel in OT20, Birdward in NT6 and Touma in GT8. And the latter is the first time that it is actively used by Touma rather than being subconscious.

 

[Churronzon]

A normal phenomenon would not produce involuntary movements that we're told Touma's precog activates on (unless we're actually told otherwise - I'll reread it). Meanwhile I don't see how it would work on anything but supernatural stuff.

Edit: It's just so explicit that Touma can't track the movements of bullets without the Dragon Shell.

He feared the change to his own body that had allowed him to react in time.
He felt like he could deflect a bullet with a sword if he had a guide to follow.

This isn't PIS. It's an explanation of what the ability grants him.

 

[XDragnoir]

We only have three "direct" mention of his precog that actively talks about it (and seemingly actives as well) rather than making passing comments about it, IIRC.

I think I don't get what you mean by "direct mention", GT1 brought his precog uo twice (in the beginning with Mikoto and when Maidono used a small shard to attack him), what exactly are you saying is different in all these scenes?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I think I don't get what you mean by "direct mention", GT1 brought his precog uo twice (in the beginning with Mikoto and when Maidono used a small shard to attack him), what exactly are you saying is different in all these scenes?

I.... honestly forgot my train of thought. Lol. Burnt my lunch earlier and had to fix that frick up and kinda forgot what counter reply I was preping.

A normal phenomenon would not produce involuntary movements that we're told Touma's precog activates on (unless we're actually told otherwise - I'll reread it). Meanwhile I don't see how it would work on anything but supernatural stuff.

Edit: It's just so explicit that Touma can't track the movements of bullets without the Dragon Shell.

This isn't PIS. It's an explanation of what the ability grants him.

Isn't the involuntary moments that Touma's precog picks up on isn't "AIM" (as he isn't that type of Esper at all) and more so just him subconsciously picking up minor changes in the environment due to powers (like mikoto unknowingly affecting metallic thing around her area) and general body moment?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Oh. New topic. Should I fill up Touma's gallery section? Like put images of the covers he was on in the LN and some of the anime concept art for him or nah? Isn't too important.

 

[Axscell]

Oh. New topic. Should I fill up Touma's gallery section? Like put images of the covers he was on in the LN and some of the anime concept art for him or nah? Isn't too important.

It'd be a welcome addition to the profile. I believe you can do that anytime (so long as the pictures are appropriate for the profile). Not sure it's priority rn, but if you feel you have the time, feel free to proceed.

 

[XDragnoir]

Isn't the involuntary moments that Touma's precog picks up on isn't "AIM" (as he isn't that type of Esper at all) and more so just him subconsciously picking up minor changes in the environment due to powers (like mikoto unknowingly affecting metallic thing around her area) and general body moment?

Yeah, but the former doesn't happen with normal things and I think it was brought up during the Rensa fight that robots and experienced fighters pretty much don't have their body give away their moviments.

That's why it's understood that he can't precog normal stuff.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Welp, I... have pretty much run out of things to talk about regarding Touma's profile revamp. I'll be making the changes shortly.

So... As a small talking point, what'cha think is next for ToAru CRT-wise? I have a few half-baked plans in my head, tbh.

• Attempting to raise 5-Bs out of baseline 5-B.
  • Maybe using the line of logic that Aleister with (a possible) 10x amp with BR can't beat Niang-Niang
  • Maybe TOAG!Fiamma having more Telesma than Gab which could move stars with Astro Hand
  • ... And that's it. Probs won't work.
• Give Misaka's Lightning a possibly SoL rating
  • I have a couple Rela calcs that rely on this, so ye.
• Establish the energy system for Toaru Magicians.
  • Mostly for scaling purposes
  • Do think we have enough to tick off Non-Physical Energy System. Not UES for obi reason.
• Try to convince one of you peps to join me in the heck that is revamping Toaru Profiles.
  • I'm drowning, drowning, sinking, sinking in Toaru profiles to revamp, so I need some help.

 

[XDragnoir]

Attempting to raise 5-Bs out of baseline 5-B.

Isn't Fiamma's feat of blowing the planet away already above baseline 5B?

 

[XDragnoir]

I heavily disagree with this. Saints would not be able to evade Crossbow's torrent of arrows or follow Gungnir.

Nah, I think we should make everyone in the series MFTL+ and have 1A hax.

What do y'all think? Also, I am not joking.

 

[XDragnoir]

So... As a small talking point, what'cha think is next for ToAru CRT-wise?

Did you take a look at the Accel feats I sent in discord?

 

[Churronzon]

There was no such thing as resurrection beyond what the god in heaven had declared.

How's he coming back

Alice miracle or surface world ritual?
Fiamma wakes up from coma?
Kingsford bullshittery?
Level 6 Saten?

 

[XDragnoir]

How's he coming back

Alice miracle or surface world ritual?
Fiamma wakes up from coma?
Kingsford bullshittery?
Level 6 Saten?

What?

 

[Churronzon]

How's Touma gonna get resurrected

 

[XDragnoir]

How's Touma gonna get resurrected

Idk, his soul may just spawn out of thin air and form a new body, maybe he will posses some random fresh corpse until he can talk with someone and get a new body like his original, who knows?

Alice miracle or surface world ritual?
Fiamma wakes up from coma?
Kingsford bullshittery?
Level 6 Saten?

I was confused by all these things you brought up, like, why would Alice or Kingsford do anything? He's already on the way to come back.

here was no such thing as resurrection beyond what the god in heaven had declared.

As for this, didn't Aleister already revive Kingsford? And Alice can revive herself? The series as a whole may have other examples.

Side note, would you say the Heaven God and Ain Soph are the same being?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

snip x2

Nah, it's baseline 5-B. The woes of a light novel feat, ig.

Ye, but I am not entirely sure how to convert it to a VSBW calc and I am also not sure if this calc is even viable here... for the Accel calc speed for plasma thingy. I already done Accel saving Last Order feat, got MFTL+ from it and got okay from various CGM. Just never had a chance to apply it to Accel's profile via CRT.

 

[XDragnoir]

Nah, it's baseline 5-B. The woes of a light novel feat, ig.

Ye, but I am not entirely sure how to convert it to a VSBW calc and I am also not sure if this calc is even viable here... for the Accel calc speed for plasma thingy. I already done Accel saving Last Order feat, got MFTL+ from it and got okay from various CGM. Just never had a chance to apply it to Accel's profile via CRT.

I've seen some similar calcs like the famous Lucifer processing speed feat:

Lucifer Processes Information

vsbattles.fandom.com

What do you think is wrong with the calc? I am no calc guy so I just saw the results and figured I should tell you about them.

 

[XDragnoir]

Also, NT13 has that statement saying humanity can destroy the planet dozens of times but even then they wouldn't be able to scratch the MGs, probably the most straight forward way to get them above the baseline.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Also, NT13 has that statement saying humanity can destroy the planet dozens of times but even then they wouldn't be able to scratch the MGs, probably the most straight forward way to get them above the baseline.

Huh, I forgot about that. Pairing that up with Blasting Rod x10 stick, I think I have a good case. I'll put this into my to-do list.

 

[Churronzon]

I was confused by all these things you brought up, like, why would Alice or Kingsford do anything? He's already on the way to come back.

I believe the resurrection attempt failed and had forgotten to consider the possibility it didn't. If it didn't fail, he'll just appear in his body again that CRC was planning on taking and then there's nothing left to resolve except for amends with Alice.

The ending didn't make it sound successful however.

“I just couldn’t bear to give up on him.”

“I know what you mean.”

“…But his heart really has stopped.”

“That isn’t your fault.”

The frog-faced doctor and a specialist walked to the morgue’s exit.

Just once, the doctor looked back.

“…”

But that was all.

No miracle occurred.

Side note, would you say the Heaven God and Ain Soph are the same being?

IRL, no.
Ain isn't assigned positive qualities, is completely formless, and doesn't live in a heaven, while the former creates man in His image. Creation also manifests differently for both.

The personal God of orthodox Theism perceives, thinks, and is affected by emotion; he repents and feels “fierce anger.” But the notion of such mental states clearly involves the unthinkable postulate of the externality of the exciting stimuli, to say nothing of the impossibility of ascribing changelessness to a Being whose emotions fluctuate with events in the worlds he presides over. The conceptions of a Personal God as changeless and infinite are thus unpsychological and, what is worse, unphilosophical.

• From the Secret Doctrine that Regardie compared Ain to Parabrahman in Theosophy

In Toaru lore: While Coronzon's ceremony would destroy all of creation and the entire Sephiroth, that wouldn't do anything to the unmanifest series of zeroes that is outside both the spiritual and material worlds (literally told beyond Keter). The same would not be true if there's a god in the phase of heaven that is dependent on the Pure World.

We'll know more if Kamachi decides to focus on either. We know Touma has beef with at least one of them lol. He shittalked God twice in his death and then Kingsford asked if he wanted to give God a of his mind.

 

[XDragnoir]

I believe the resurrection attempt failed and had forgotten to consider the possibility it didn't. If it didn't fail, he'll just appear in his body again that CRC was planning on taking and then there's nothing left to resolve except for amends with Alice.

The ending didn't make it sound successful however.

I think the ending was like that because Touma may have to go through another stage before being revived, maybe he ends up in Heaven now, or some kind of Purgatory, Touma's Divine Misfortune.

IRL, no.
Ain isn't assigned positive qualities, is completely formless, and doesn't live in a heaven, while the former creates man in His image. Creation also manifests differently for both.

I was only asking about Toaru, my bad.

In Toaru lore: While Coronzon's ceremony would destroy all of creation and the entire Sephiroth, that wouldn't do anything to the unmanifest series of zeroes that is outside both the spiritual and material worlds. The same would not be true if there's a god in the phase of heaven that is dependent on the Pure World.

That's fair, I was thinking more in how the Christian God is often brought up as an important being in Toaru even tho he shouldn't be (due to how Phases work).

We'll know more if Kamachi decides to focus on either. We know Touma has beef with at least one of them lol

Yeah, one day we'll learn more about the Secret Chiefs, the Four Worlds and Ain Soph, I am sure of that.

 

[Churronzon]

I think the ending was like that because Touma may have to go through another stage before being revived, maybe he ends up in Heaven now, or some kind of Purgatory, Touma's Divine Misfortune.

That's my hope and was thinking the exact same. want to see the Empyrean.

 

[Aseka]

Maybe TOAG!Fiamma having more Telesma than Gab which could move stars with Astro Hand

If I'm not wrong, there's a certain narration that says Fiamma can achieve Telesma energy greater than Gabriel, and Telesma contained within Curtana can destroyed universe.

 

[Churronzon]

I have a couple Rela calcs that rely on this, so ye.

substitute them with their massively hypersonic+ values

• Maybe TOAG!Fiamma having more Telesma than Gab which could move stars with Astro Hand

Establish the energy system for Toaru Magicians.

Does Telesma follow a UES? I haven't looked at it

 

[XDragnoir]

Does Telesma follow a UES? I haven't looked at it

Telesma doesn't.

But talking about magic in general, it's pretty hard to scale stuff around in Toaru

 

[Churronzon]

Ah, that would make Gabriel scale to the Astro in hand value. yeah nvm.

I thought humans being buffed by telesma would work for one of the systems on the wiki

 

[XDragnoir]

I thought humans being buffed by telesma would work for one of the systems on the wiki

It does work to some degree to get scaling, but not in the way the wiki treats energy systems.

 

[Axscell]

Thread 'Gilgamesh(Fate) vs Aiwass(Toaru)'

Dec 27, 2022

• Gil has enough info to know that Aiwass is worthy enough for Ea and also knows that Aiwass exists in the Pure World
• Both are at their strongest
• SBA everything else

Profiles: Gilgamesh | Aiwass

• Churronzon
• aiwass gilgamesh toaru majutsu no index
• Replies: 112
• Forum: Versus Threads

This thread just made me realize how outdated (and bad?) Aiwass's profile is. For one, I'm not sure why his High-1C key is still there. It's very hypothetical and isn't really based on anything concrete.

Anyways, I wanna update this soon

To help move things along more smoothly, I’ve created a table here detailing all of the CRTs that are ongoing for Toaru, along with those that we have plans for, but are yet to be made, and possibly those that have reached some kind of conclusion but haven’t had the proposed changes applied yet. Hopefully this'll help us keep track of changes and additions that need to be made/concluded. Feel free to add to it (or let me know to do so), or remove those that have been concluded and added.

S. No​	Thread​	Aim​	Current Status​	Reason for Current Status​	OP​
1​	Alice Anotherbible’s Resistance​	To list down and add resistances that fall under internal damage for Alice Anotherbible.	Ongoing?/Dead?​	No response from participants and mods. Possibly requires separate discussion thread before revival.	@XDragnoir​
2​	Dragon King Touma Abilities​	To add Dragon King abilities to Touma’s Invisible Thing key	Concluded?​	Seems to have been passed. Pending addition to Touma’s profile.	@Churronzon​
3​	Infinite Speed Magic Gods​	To grant the Magic Gods infinite speed	Ongoing​	Requires more participation.	@Churronzon​
4​	Top Tier Revision​	To modify AP for Toaru top tiers (Fiamma, Aleister, Mathers etc)	Dead?​	Was abandoned due to number of ongoing Toaru CRTs	@FantaRin_The_First​
5​	[Toaru H1-B Hax] Curtana Revision Retry​	To upgrade Curtana’s hax to H1-B	Ongoing​	Ongoing discussion. Requires more participation.	@LOTM_Historian​
6​	Low Tier Scaling Part 1 (Science Side)​	Fixing scaling for Toaru low tiers (Tier 9 - 7 range)	Concluded?​	Seems to have concluded. Pending additions to profiles.	@FantaRin_The_First​
7​	On Alice Surviving Gungnir’s Destruction​	To give Alice resistance to phase manipulation	Ongoing?​	Requires conclusion. Possibly requires separate discussion thread.	@Churronzon​
8​	Crowley’s Nondualism​	To grant Aleister Crowley Nonduality	Ongoing​	Requires more participation.	@Aseka​
9​	Very Minor Toaru Thing​	To give Beginning Child poison resistance	Ongoing?​	Requires conclusion/addition to profile?	@The_King_of_Prudence​
10​	Random Toaru Ability​	Adding missing hax for Izzard	Ongoing​	Requires more participation.	@Churronzon​
11​	Adding the Will to the Sisters page​	Adding several hax to Will of the Whole Misaka Network [profile pending creation]	Ongoing​	Requires more participation. Possibly needs to revived as a separate thread.	@Churronzon​
12​	[Untitled]​	Addition of missing hax for the Magic Gods​	Not Yet Made​	N/A​	N/A​

P.S. It’d be nice if we could conclude these one at a time.

Can y'all confirm that statuses of your threads please? @Churronzon @XDragnoir @Aseka @LOTM_Historian @The_King_of_Prudence

 

[XDragnoir]

.

Mine is being bumped here and there, but the people who were discussing there don't seem to care enough to give further input, so it's just there.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I got my Touma profile crt. Still going to do it but life just suddenly decided to screw me in the butt and drop a bunch of busywork on me that I need to resolve.

 

[XDragnoir]

Thread 'Gilgamesh(Fate) vs Aiwass(Toaru)'

Dec 27, 2022

• Gil has enough info to know that Aiwass is worthy enough for Ea and also knows that Aiwass exists in the Pure World
• Both are at their strongest
• SBA everything else

Profiles: Gilgamesh | Aiwass

• Churronzon
• aiwass gilgamesh toaru majutsu no index
• Replies: 112
• Forum: Versus Threads

This thread just made me realize how outdated (and bad?) Aiwass's profile is. For one, I'm not sure why his High-1C key is still there. It's very hypothetical and isn't really based on anything concrete.

Anyways, I wanna update this soon

Can y'all confirm that statuses of your threads please? @Churronzon @XDragnoir @Aseka @LOTM_Historian @The_King_of_Prudence

I don't think the H1C key is particularly a problem because that way people who have read the series but only see the profiles and not our discussions here can understand we are taking all his statements into account but splitting them into two different versions of the character, I think a note explaining that could be added at the end of his profile tho.

 

[XDragnoir]

Nah, I think we should make everyone in the series MFTL+ and have 1A hax.

What do y'all think? Also, I am not joking.

I want opinions regarding this.

Isn't this what everyone wants? 1A Toaru? I can agree with it, if we give everyone MFTL+ speed as well.

 

[Churronzon]

I want fiamma miracles fixed and coronzon's secret handshake weakness added

I forgot to add that even in the techniques section

 

[Axscell]

I want opinions regarding this.

Isn't this what everyone wants? 1A Toaru? I can agree with it, if we give everyone MFTL+ speed as well.

Wut? Why and how even? Nothing in the series is 1A (at least yet) and the only MFTL+ things are attacks from a select few characters.

 

[XDragnoir]

Wut? Why and how even? Nothing in the series is 1A (at least yet) and the only MFTL+ things are attacks from a select few characters.

I am pretty confident I can get it accepted when it comes to 1A.

As for the MFTL+, I've seen even more stupid things get accepted with less feats backing it up, more or less the same as above.

Everyone here seems to only care about having higher tiers and whatever, I am offering just that but I want to go full high tier, not even a sliver of a moderate interpretation.