Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

[Axscell]

I don't think the H1C key is particularly a problem because that way people who have read the series but only see the profiles and not our discussions here can understand we are taking all his statements into account but splitting them into two different versions of the character, I think a note explaining that could be added at the end of his profile tho.

It's fine I guess. It existing just seems a bit pointless to me since it can't realistically be used in battle (like the example above) because we have pretty much nothing to go off of other than those unsubstantiated claims that place him at High 1-C.

I want fiamma miracles fixed and coronzon's secret handshake weakness added

I forgot to add that even in the techniques section

As in, you want to make a CRT at some point?

I am pretty confident I can get it accepted when it comes to 1A.

As for the MFTL+, I've seen even more stupid things get accepted with less feats backing it up, more or less the same as above.

Everyone here seems to only care about having higher tiers and whatever, I am offering just that but I want to go full high tier, not even a sliver of a moderate interpretation.

You could try IG. It'd be nice to know what you plan on basing this off of though.

 

[ToaruCounterfeitCRC]

This thread just made me realize how outdated (and bad?) Aiwass's profile is. For one, I'm not sure why his High-1C key is still there. It's very hypothetical and isn't really based on anything concrete.

IMO, it just means the current lowball system is out of control and makes zero-sense lore-wise.
Either we nerf all non-MG characters (Aleister etc., maybe except for Marian AP with Dáinsleif) to match lower ranked lore-wise superior characters, or we keep the current rating, or we chain-scale lorewise superior ones. That would be logically consistent.
Either way, we know Aiwass, Corozon, and true experts are explicitly stronger than Aleister; GT9 is crystal clear in delivering this caveat.

Of course, stronger lorewise may not mean more destructive. But it does mean in a vs thread we should be able to conclude unconditional win for the side that is going win given character profiles within VSB. Currently, nothing would suggest that if one is to look at hax, AP and dura etc. when doing such a thread.

Edit: While I did rant a bit regarding the Unknown rank given to Dragon King Touma and JVA, I wouldn't propose changes.
I was merely saying for the saving grace of in-verse consistency, please don't create more at least planet-level characters that are lorewise superior to a H1C Aleister.

 

[XDragnoir]

IMO, it just means the current lowball system is out of control and makes zero-sense lore-wise.
Either we nerf all non-MG characters (Aleister etc., maybe except for Marian AP with Dáinsleif) to match lower ranked lore-wise superior characters, or we keep the current rating, or we chain-scale lorewise superior ones. That would be logically consistent.
Either way, we know Aiwass, Corozon, and true experts are explicitly stronger than Aleister; GT9 is crystal clear in delivering this caveat.

Why would we downgrade non-MGs?

Of course, stronger lorewise may not mean more destructive. But it does mean in a vs thread we should be able to conclude unconditional win for the side that is going win given character profiles within VSB. Currently, nothing would suggest that if one is to look at hax, AP and dura etc. when doing such a thread.

What are you trying to say? This doesn't explain anything.

Edit: While I did rant a bit regarding the Unknown rank given to Dragon King Touma and JVA, I wouldn't propose changes.
I was merely saying for the saving grace of in-verse consistency, please don't create more at least planet-level characters that are lorewise superior to a H1C Aleister.

Just the same usual complaint that "oh no, I don't like planet level, Toaru characters are all super high multiversal"? How do you even think Aleister scales to H1C? You can't be talking about Blasting Rod because that's a completely situational amp, so what is it?

But since you're so bothered by 5B, what do you think of my proposal to upgrade things to 1A and MFTL+?

 

[ToaruCounterfeitCRC]

Why would we downgrade non-MGs?

Because just as you said, the situational H1C on blasting rod on Aleister does not make sense when you lowball to the end?
He has H1C ap, amplifying power to the point of defeating MGs if the right conditions are met.
But if really so situational, we should just give him a hax that dura-neg specifically on MGs? (which is by all likelihood what he did in the story)
Then, he has H1C dura, because he survived some offscreen attack that has no quantifiable description.
Saying MGs are angry so they H1C APed on him is no solid evidence, imo.
The lowball on Aleister is then the Big Bang Bomb spiritual trip + 5B, which I found plenty reasonable.

What are you trying to say? This doesn't explain anything.

Don't nerf Aiwass, who was said to be able to overwhelm all MGs combined and smash all non-science phases.
If do, then Aleister, who is by all metrics weaker, cannot possibly even have a situational H-1C.

Just the same usual complaint that "oh no, I don't like planet level, Toaru characters are all super high multiversal"? How do you even think Aleister scales to H1C? You can't be talking about Blasting Rod because that's a completely situational amp, so what is it?

That's not what the Blasting Rod key suggests on this wiki as of now. It says Increases 10 times based on the target's expectation.
Does not sound very situational to me. Most vs threads seem to highball it (or, say, it 10 times the opponent up to H1C) anyway.

But since you're so bothered by 5B,

Again, I'm not bothered by 5B. I am bothered by the fact that in-verse power dynamics are not properly reflected by profiled attributes.
Aleister would steamroll GT threats (say, Anna Sprengel) given his profile, that is obviously not the case in the novel.

what do you think of my proposal to upgrade things to 1A and MFTL+?

We will never get 1A unless we figure out how the trees and phases work. Chance of Kamachi telling us by GT12 < 1%.
MFTL+ sounds fine.

 

[XDragnoir]

But if really so situational, we should just give him a hax that dura-neg specifically on MGs? (which is by all likelihood what he did in the story)

What hax are you talking about? When did Aleister showcase anything like that?

Then, he has H1C dura, because he survived some offscreen attack that has no quantifiable description.
Saying MGs are angry so they H1C APed on him is no solid evidence, imo.

He had burns on his body, that implies some form of heat or explosion, ever heard of Occam's Razor?

The lowball on Aleister is then the Big Bang Bomb spiritual trip + 5B, which I found plenty reasonable.

What? IMO you're not making much sense, what does Big Bang Bomb have to do with everything else?

Don't nerf Aiwass, who was said to be able to overwhelm all MGs combined and smash all non-science phases.

Not in the form we see him in the series, did you read what me and @Axscell were discussing right before? Just read the first posts in this page.

If do, then Aleister, who is by all metrics weaker, cannot possibly even have a situational H-1C.

This doesn't make any sense whatsoever, different characters, different spells, different scaling, this shouldn't be hard to understand.

That's not what the Blasting Rod key suggests on this wiki as of now. It says Increases 10 times based on the target's expectation.
Does not sound very situational to me. Most vs threads seem to highball it (or, say, it 10 times the opponent up to H1C) anyway.

It's situational because if the target thinks his attacks are 10 Megatons will face an attack worth a 100 Megatons, if they think it's a 1000 then 10,000 or whatever higher you want, we have no idea how he made it work against the MGs but he did and there's not much beyond that we can conclude.

Again, I'm not bothered by 5B. I am bothered by the fact that in-verse power dynamics are not properly reflected by profiled attributes.
Aleister would steamroll GT threats (say, Anna Sprengel) given his profile, that is obviously not the case in the novel.

Why would that be the case, exactly? What exactly is wrong with Anna's profile and what exactly should we change about it?

We will never get 1A unless we figure out how the trees and phases work. Chance of Kamachi telling us by GT12 < 1%.
MFTL+ sounds fine

Honestly? I don't care about that, I am just tired of all these stupid upgrade threads, if shit gets upgraded then they will end.

 

[ToaruCounterfeitCRC]

What hax are you talking about? When did Aleister showcase anything like that?

He literally manages to damage 0 magic gods before the hack is in, and then he channels AAA with some KnT shenanigan to kill single-nerfed MG (Zombie), later double-nerfed High Priest. His has no H-1C AP directly, whatsoever.
I honestly don't even know how "Drawing out the power of a god and defeating a god while remaining human was the way a summoner thought." is by anyway more valid than "the great treasure built up in order to overpower all of the Magic Gods, including full-power Othinus."

If anything, the latter statement is much more of a direct power comparison, while the first more or less wishful thinking.

He had burns on his body, that implies some form of heat or explosion, ever heard of Occam's Razor?

Probably not.
Occam's Razor paired with habitual lowballing tells us whatever they did in the Hidden World is nothing more than what they do in the New World, or against Coronzon, at least 5B, likely far higher.

What? IMO you're not making much sense, what does Big Bang Bomb have to do with everything else?

BBB is what Aleister can forcefully impress on his target completely on his own, iirc.
That's not situational, save for against someone completely exceeds his mastery of magic (i.e., above Anna).

Not in the form we see him in the series, did you read what me and @Axscell were discussing right before? Just read the first posts in this page.

The key is not talking about the form we see, though.
And if we highball like how we evaluate offscreen Aleister I'd give energy avatar Aiwass h1c dura anyway for fighting Coronzon and barely surviving.

This doesn't make any sense whatsoever, different characters, different spells, different scaling, this shouldn't be hard to understand.

Except GT9 says one is stronger than the other. So we need that somewhat accounted here.

It's situational because if the target thinks his attacks are 10 Megatons will face an attack worth a 100 Megatons, if they think it's a 1000 then 10,000 or whatever higher you want, we have no idea how he made it work against the MGs but he did and there's not much beyond that we can conclude.

I don't find the underlying logic problematic. The problem lies in if we lowball or not.

Why would that be the case, exactly? What exactly is wrong with Anna's profile and what exactly should we change about it?

Basic AP/Dura + Speed tags say otherwise. Seems a no-diff to me.
To propose change would require in-verse lore sanity-check based chain-scaling, incompatible with the ruleset we use, so no change.
I am fine with this, though, merely using it as an example against further revisions creating more low san situation.

 

[XDragnoir]

He literally manages to damage 0 magic gods before the hack is in, and then he channels AAA with some KnT shenanigan to kill single-nerfed MG

Give me one quote saying he used KNT and the AAA together to kill Zombie.

I honestly don't even know how "Drawing out the power of a god and defeating a god while remaining human was the way a summoner thought." is by anyway more valid than "the great treasure built up in order to overpower all of the Magic Gods, including full-power Othinus."

If anything, the latter statement is much more of a direct power comparison, while the first more or less wishful thinking.

The first one isn't used to scale Aleister to H1C tho, do you see that under the justifications in his profile? Also, the 2nd quote is about what, the AAA?

Probably not.
Occam's Razor paired with habitual lowballing tells us whatever they did in the Hidden World is nothing more than what they do in the New World, or against Coronzon, at least 5B, likely far higher.

No because they were not nerfed at that point, they still had their infinite power when Aleister fought them, so you're wrong.

The key is not talking about the form we see, though.

The 1st key is for the form that we see interacting with the world, the 2nd is for the hypothetical one, what are you trying to say here?

And if we highball like how we evaluate offscreen Aleister I'd give energy avatar Aiwass h1c dura anyway for fighting Coronzon and barely surviving.

Not how it works, we actually see Aleister holding the Blasting Rod before the battle goes off screen, meaning he not only saw it as a needed spell but definitely would have used it, we don't presume stuff based on absolutely nothing like what you're trying to do.

BBB is what Aleister can forcefully impress on his target completely on his own, iirc.
That's not situational, save for against someone completely exceeds his mastery of magic (i.e., above Anna).

Give me a statement saying he used BBB against the MGs or whatever you're arguing for the BBB, and what does this have to do with lowballs? What 5B were you talking about in the other post? If you can't elaborate on what you mean, we won't reach an understanding.

Except GT9 says one is stronger than the other. So we need that somewhat accounted here.

We would have that accounted if we had an statement saying which of CRC's spells was his strongest or a comparison to an already known spell or whatever else, but I bet you'd like to claim that ROTA is a H1C spell.

We don't take "stronger" statements straightforwardly in verses where power level doesn't work straightforwardly.

I don't find the underlying logic problematic. The problem lies in if we lowball or not.

What even is being lowballed at this point? A few moments before this you said Aleister was highballed, now it's a lowball, wtf?

Basic AP/Dura + Speed tags say otherwise. Seems a no-diff to me.
To propose change would require in-verse lore sanity-check based chain-scaling, incompatible with the ruleset we use, so no change.
I am fine with this, though, merely using it as an example against further revisions creating more low san situation.

Her speed is outdated so that much is true, if you want to compile her speed feats and scaling to do a CRT go ahead, I don't see how scaling chains are somehow "incompatible with the ruleset we use" as you put it, given we use that in Toaru and in other verses already.

Not like Aleister's AP and Dura would mean anything, Spiritual Tripping doesn't really work against Anna, nor would Blasting Rod, meanwhile Anna has a bunch of spells, some level of dura neg and can summon Aiwass.

 

[Churronzon]

Othinus when Tris uses the Ain-Tao correspondence in Liber 777

(jokes)

 

[ToaruCounterfeitCRC]

Give me one quote saying he used KNT and the AAA together to kill Zombie.

He throws Zombie's corpse into the field with some bizarre Rosy cross symbolism.
No quote about KnT and AAA, but you may also question why even attribute it to blast rod.
No consensus regarding who offscreened Zombie. If it's Noukan it's probably AAA, if Aleister it could be whatever, BR or hax, hardly quantifiable.

The first one isn't used to scale Aleister to H1C tho, do you see that under the justifications in his profile? Also, the 2nd quote is about what, the AAA?

One of the two references justifying H1C AP, NT 18 Chapter 4 Part 2 and NT10 epilogue.
I quoted the only relevant line from NT18 that can remotely scale him to MGs.
This first paragraph included in wiki page imgur link merely states he planned to fight MGs on his own. This line at least tells us how

imgur.com/a/blasting-rod-SYd5w5p

The other is just an off-screen clash, he could've bent some of High Priest's fingers and I guess that'd still count, except HP's physical is not some absolute rigid materia

No because they were not nerfed at that point, they still had their infinite power when Aleister fought them, so you're wrong.

I personally see no solid ways of scaling a full-power MG attack besides Othinus' lance and world ending phase manip.
If we exclude phase manip (cuz the Hidden World) and lance (who else uses it), then I may assume the lowest possible, i.e., what is shown in the new world.
The novel still presents double-nerfed MGs as someone who can destroy the world, but I think it means planetary destruction, save for one-time phase manip.

Not how it works, we actually see Aleister holding the Blasting Rod before the battle goes off screen, meaning he not only saw it as a needed spell but definitely would have used it, we don't presume stuff based on absolutely nothing like what you're trying to do.

Give me a statement saying he used BBB against the MGs or whatever you're arguing for the BBB, and what does this have to do with lowballs? What 5B were you talking about in the other post? If you can't elaborate on what you mean, we won't reach an understanding.

I am not arguing BBB against MGs. I am saying BBB is his nominal output, and he can do it to arbitrary conscious things on the street.
5B is his AAA, hardly any restriction would apply in-verse or x-over. I wasn't being clear. I do refer to pre-abyss Aleister exclusively.
Post-abyss is mingled with Coronzon and Aiwass and kind of unclear.

We would have that accounted if we had an statement saying which of CRC's spells was his strongest or a comparison to an already known spell or whatever else, but I bet you'd like to claim that ROTA is a H1C spell.

Dragon King only has a low-confidence hypothetical equalizing Alice which may chain scale to H1C, too ambiguous and subjective (in terms of in-story characters) to count. I don't want ROTA as H1C; I did say 5B JVA was funny, but that was because of me (lacking consideration) equalizing his fake hell artificial phase with other phases.

We don't take "stronger" statements straightforwardly in verses where power level doesn't work straightforwardly.
What even is being lowballed at this point? A few moments before this you said Aleister was highballed, now it's a lowball, wtf?

Lowball or not was suggesting whether the threshold of Blast Rod should be treated harshly or not. I did mean BR is highballed currently.
When I say "if or not" it is not imposing a narrative on how we have been treating it, but to invite thinking about different approaches.

the rest

I see your points that speed causes the stomp and ap/dura means nothing in-verse given the settings. True.
I think it's not intuitive/clear-cut enough from an outsider perspective.
Updating Anna's speed by having a will-amplified version for GT10 feats would probably improve some sanity.

 

[XDragnoir]

He throws Zombie's corpse into the field with some bizarre Rosy cross symbolism.
No quote about KnT and AAA, but you may also question why even attribute it to blast rod.
No consensus regarding who offscreened Zombie. If it's Noukan it's probably AAA, if Aleister it could be whatever, BR or hax, hardly quantifiable.

I never attributed it to Blasting Rod, you are the one who said it had anything to do with KNT and now you're admitting there's no quote supporting it.

One of the two references justifying H1C AP, NT 18 Chapter 4 Part 2 and NT10 epilogue.
I quoted the only relevant line from NT18 that can remotely scale him to MGs.
This first paragraph included in wiki page imgur link merely states he planned to fight MGs on his own. This line at least tells us how

I think I worded it badly, the profile sums what is to be extracted from that specific part of the novel, that he intended to be able to fight the MGs on his own, which is just support evidence for his feat and scaling from NT10, stop trying to see the evidence individually and see it as a whole.

The other is just an off-screen clash, he could've bent some of High Priest's fingers and I guess that'd still count, except HP's physical is not some absolute rigid materia

What?

I personally see no solid ways of scaling a full-power MG attack besides Othinus' lance and world ending phase manip.
If we exclude phase manip (cuz the Hidden World) and lance (who else uses it), then I may assume the lowest possible, i.e., what is shown in the new world.
The novel still presents double-nerfed MGs as someone who can destroy the world, but I think it means planetary destruction, save for one-time phase manip.

What? They are literally stated to have power to destroy the world by moving in their full power, why would any offensive attack carry less strength than a simple hand movement?

This is ridiculous, honestly. First you start talking how there's too much lowballs and highballs and whatever and now you're arguing for a stupid lowball that goes against basic power scaling and statements? Be consistent.

I am not arguing BBB against MGs. I am saying BBB is his nominal output, and he can do it to arbitrary conscious things on the street.
5B is his AAA, hardly any restriction would apply in-verse or x-over. I wasn't being clear. I do refer to pre-abyss Aleister exclusively.
Post-abyss is mingled with Coronzon and Aiwass and kind of unclear.

Nominal output? What's that supposed to mean? AAA scales to 5B sure but what do you mean by "hardly any restriction"?

Dragon King only has a low-confidence hypothetical equalizing Alice which may chain scale to H1C, too ambiguous and subjective (in terms of in-story characters) to count. I don't want ROTA as H1C; I did say 5B JVA was funny, but that was because of me (lacking consideration) equalizing his fake hell artificial phase with other phases.

Why would that chain scale to H1C?

If you don't think ROTA is H1C what do you think we should do with CRC's statement that he is stronger than Aleister then? Why did you bring it up if you're not going to explain what we should do with it? Are you just throwing stuff into the wall to see what sticks?

Lowball or not was suggesting whether the threshold of Blast Rod should be treated harshly or not. I did mean BR is highballed currently.
When I say "if or not" it is not imposing a narrative on how we have been treating it, but to invite thinking about different approaches.

I see no reason to treat it "harshly" when its scaling is pretty straightforward and it barely affects stuff given the entire point of BR is to vary in power against each opponent.

I see your points that speed causes the stomp and ap/dura means nothing in-verse given the settings. True.
I think it's not intuitive/clear-cut enough from an outsider perspective.
Updating Anna's speed by having a will-amplified version for GT10 feats would probably improve some sanity.

It would be intuitive/clear-cut if Kamachi had made Toaru like Dragon Ball or Black Clover when it comes to powerscaling, but it isn't, the series works with a rock paper scissors logic and that's about it.

Also, Anna's profile pretty much only covers her feats up to GT2, I am pretty sure she had more interactions before GT10 so it would be better if you took all of her feats into consideration before creating a CRT.

Also, why do you keep talking about "sanity", that's strange, dude.