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It is your burden of proof that they don’t. This wiki has TONS of example where “he can destroy a universe” leads to Uni+ AP, same with other tiers lmao
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Ninjago Garmadon Downgrade
- Thread starter Minaaaa
- Start date
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alright then, show me those examples lmao i'll nerf them.
Burden of proof is on you that they aren't destroying it one by one and only the space of it and not the time.
Minaaaa
She/Her- 435
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It literally does matter because no physical destruction of the objects in the realm nor the destruction of the realm's space-time is taking place.
We are literally going in circles with you not explaining your positions. There is literally no evidence to say the cloud ISNT the way they ARENT destroying the realms. And again, we've looped back to the same "Theyre using their power argument", for the last time, HOW ARE THEY USING THEIR POWER? If you cannot provide an answer, this argument is done
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In S10? Yes, because they are just ivv bc ading the Realm, not destroying it. They WOULD destroy them after if not for Ninjas;
Quite the opposite, you never prove that Cloud is how they destroy the Realm. "There is literally no evidence to say that cloud ISNT the way they ARENT destroying the realms" CLEAR Burden of Proof Fallacy here + I already showed it via Cloud not destroying any buildings or cities. They are using Destruction in a way it destroys all the Realms. Just like Overlord would destroy the Balance using his Darkness in a way it destroys Balance.
If you can't prove that Cloud is supposed to destroy the Realms, the debate is finished lol.
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Stated to destroy all the Realms = Low Multi AP unless you find something to make that unvalid
That simple
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Bill Cipher got Uni+ AP despite no-one ever saying that it was “one attack” lol
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it ain't. That's not how it works here.
One, it is a universe level feat which has different criteria from a multiverse level feat. Also you say it's contextless and except it's blatantly shown how he could do it so at the very least we have some idea how it happens, though perhaps extrapolating it on the profile would be better. The evidence for Low 2-C here is that Time baby (the ultimate time authority in the verse) is worried about a rip in the dimension that would destroy the very fabric of exitence as a whole, time being blatantly part of exitence.
There's more context to it further on with Bill being a threat to a 2-A sized multiverse which would only be achievable if you can affect 4-D stuff due to the sheer infinite size of the whole place.
You on the other hand have a vague mention of "destruction". Not even a suggestion about destroying space-time or the fabric of existence but just a random destruction statement that is without further context High 3-A
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The statements litterally implies the destruction of a Realm (which is 4D in size), nothing is said about only destroying the space or anything. Statements of destroying a 4D Universe remains Tier 2 unless u can prove it wrong (which none of you are capable of actually proving) The hell are you waffling about?
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no? Destroying a universe is 3-A. Low 2-C is destroying a timeline
A timeline is uncountably infinite snapshots of the universe on a 4th dimensional axis.
To destroy a universe and get Low 2-C you need to destroy all of space and time
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what is the context of the image? Just because a universe is a space-time doesn't mean "destroying the universe" is Low 2-C. EVERY universe or universe-like realm is a space-time by default as it needs 3 dimensions of space and 1 of time, but destroying it often means just destroying the space part of it or even just the contents of it. Thus you need to prove that their destruction affects both space and time to get Low 2-C. If you want evidence of this being a rule on the wiki you can find it in this thread (pages 1 and 5 discuss specifically that)The statement say they are destroying the whole thing, and Realms ARE Space Times
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and? What does this change? Did you ignore the qualitively larger than an infinite 3D space part? Do you not understand that this proves that you need evidence of them destroying the past, present and future of the realms?No way
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Which I did, by your logic, all 4D destroying statements in this wiki isn't 4D bc they specifically didn't say "X character can destroy the past, present and future of the realm"
Not even how it work buddy
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Like i said, show me the 4D statements you are talking about. I'll nerf them. Bill Cipher example didn't work because of statments+context.
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Episodes description litterally telling us they were gonna destroy the Realm
Garmadon litterally telling us NOTHING WILL BE LEFT of the Realm while he only cares about his OWN SURVIVAL + Knew he could survive the Oni Cloud
There is absolutly 0 evidence they aren't destroying the whole Space Time, and plz read the rules before bringing up random arguments
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yeah this is a bunch of nothing that is High 3-A at best. In this site it is your burden to prove they DO affect space-time. This is how it wokrs and always worked. Nothing will be left doesn't suggest more than the destruction of the contents of the realm.Episodes description litterally telling us they were gonna destroy the Realm
Garmadon litterally telling us NOTHING WILL BE LEFT of the Realm while he only cares about his OWN SURVIVAL + Knew he could survive the Oni Cloud
There is absolutly 0 evidence they aren't destroying the whole Space Time, and plz read the rules before bringing up random arguments
You also failed to give examples of what you mentioned would be downgraded by my logic, interesting.
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CodeCCLL
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I agree with the OP, also I though the same things as Arceus0x about counter arguments. (although these aren't even considered a counter argument)
Since this thread has already been discussed enough, I don't want to extend it. All I can say is that the theoretical destruction of universes is only 3A or High 3A depending on the size of the universe, unless there is proof of the destruction of the space-time continuum.
Spongebob, Guy Crimson, Eclipsa such as many of the characters I love, are only at the 3A level because there is no proof that they can destroy the space-time continuum, even though they have the feat of completely erasing the universe, destroying the universe, and destroying universal dimensions until nothing remains. There are a many other characters that I know of that are 3A or High 3A like this, but I don't think I need to mention.
Since this thread has already been discussed enough, I don't want to extend it. All I can say is that the theoretical destruction of universes is only 3A or High 3A depending on the size of the universe, unless there is proof of the destruction of the space-time continuum.
Spongebob, Guy Crimson, Eclipsa such as many of the characters I love, are only at the 3A level because there is no proof that they can destroy the space-time continuum, even though they have the feat of completely erasing the universe, destroying the universe, and destroying universal dimensions until nothing remains. There are a many other characters that I know of that are 3A or High 3A like this, but I don't think I need to mention.
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where's the proof that they are affecting time (or even space for that matter) of a universe? if there's none then is there evidence of a 4th spacial dimension in the universe?
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Did you not read the part YOU outlined here? High 3-A isn't just spatial destruction on a 3-D level but also extends to the outputting of energy on a 3-D level and / or the destruction of an infinite amount of mass. Arceus is saying the feats don't equate to Low 2-C due to the fact it can just be the destruction of the mass within these realms.They are not affecting a 3D space at all, so it doesn't fit the High 3-A tier AT ALL
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The Realms are already accepted as 4D via the statement from Zane that the time twins affected their Space Time
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you do realize that every universe is 4D because they have 3 dimensions of space + 1 dimension of time right?
Thus to prove tier 2 you need to prove the destruction affects time too.
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A realm being a separate spacetime != the destruction of a realm being the destruction of spacetime
CodeCCLL
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I hope you realize that they can't become Tier 2 without destroying or significantly affecting 3 spatial and 1 temporal dimension.They are not affecting a 3D space at all, so it doesn't fit the High 3-A tier AT ALL
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It is.
It is.
And? Where it says “in one attack”? Never. So via your logic it shouldn’t be counted. Also rip in the dimension is not even Bill’s work…
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Amazing counterarguments. I've heard them back in 2nd grade.
In one attack is basic logic. You need to affect both universes and the higher-dimensional space between the two universes. If you destroy one universe then destroy another universe then that would not be multiverse level, the same way if you destroy a city by punching apart its buildings one by one you wouldn't be city level but instead building level.
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There are many other proofs that Onis will destroy all the Realms that back-up what “nothing will be left behind” means.
Realm is 4D. Destruction of multiple of them = 2-C.
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If they're threatening the fabric of space-time that it's logically also including time
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“It ain’t” is not any better.
Where is that ever stated that Bill did it in one attack? It can be overtime, galaxy by galaxy, etc. Once I’ll get to my PC I’ll show way more examples. Also again rift was not his work…
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I literally asked you for the context of the screenshot you sent me. Look mate. All you need to give me is the full evidence, with context, that the Oni's destruction is affecting time. If you have that then tier 2 is a guarantee.
If it's done one by one then it's not 2-C.
It's literally shown? Also I don't care if the rift is not his work, I am not a bill cipher supporter.
Overtime doesn't work with High 3-A and above since dividing infinity by any time is still infinity.
CodeCCLL
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Why do you repeat the same things?
This is not what is meant by a single attack. Destroying a finite structure and destroying an infinite structure are very different things. You cannot reach the galaxy level by destroying stars one by one, but in the case of an infinite structure, destroying an infinite structure with multiple attacks in a limited time is still High 3A because it is an infinite structure. No matter how much of the structure you destroy in a single attack, the part you do not destroy is still infinite, so High 3A is already valid. But 2C no. (So there is no need to mention 2C as even Low-2C is not valid.)
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The context is that Zane is saying The Time Twin powers can wrap and affect their Space-Time (which here refers to their Realm), which is mainly why each Realms are 4D in the verse (since they are all parallel to Ninjago as well)
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One, why would the oni's destruction scale to that?
Two, I still don't see the context images. I want to see not just the one phrase but the conversation.
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Destroying a universe and leaving nothing left without any further context of both space and time being affected is pretty standard 3-A unless you're saying the realms are 4-D spaceEpisodes description litterally telling us they were gonna destroy the Realm
Garmadon litterally telling us NOTHING WILL BE LEFT of the Realm while he only cares about his OWN SURVIVAL + Knew he could survive the Oni Cloud
There is absolutly 0 evidence they aren't destroying the whole Space Time, and plz read the rules before bringing up random arguments
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The Realms are 4D spaces
Robespierre_Isidore
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I've come to distribute one thing from my friend.
Side note;
Actual things worthy of primary note.
There seems to be compelling arguments for the down grade in this one instance, Loydblitz and TheOrangeguy you are both taking the context of 'destroy everything' very literal from someone who has repeatedly wanted to rule everything even in the comics there is that page... This comes from the Garmadon comics Garmadon issue #2
Note the line "land of ash"
This implies they'd turn things to ash but less of a destroy the realm in its entireity if we are taking it literally with what Garmadon says as far as destruction such as what Loyd and TheOrange are saying ... that still leaves matter now converted to ash and an entirely untouched 4th dimension of time as there would still be a future in a land of ash according to the implication Garmadon could still rule over it hypothetically. The comics Garmadon take place after the episode Ending season 10 episode 4
This happens after the Oni's invasion and before the 11th season. The Image Comics line from what I know is canon.
Before someone says something about the comics...
This is pulled straight from the Ninjago Wiki:
"It is confirmed to be canon by multiple sources, though the TV series does not acknowledge its events. This is likely due to the fact that the comic series was not planned until after Crystalized had already been written." There is an interview from the author as well that goes over parts of canon, in addition to Lego and Skyline Comics saying they were going to do it, the only inconsistency being the helmet aspect and non-mention by the tv series.
Side note;
less of a rule more of a precedent but I get your point.
Actual things worthy of primary note.
There seems to be compelling arguments for the down grade in this one instance, Loydblitz and TheOrangeguy you are both taking the context of 'destroy everything' very literal from someone who has repeatedly wanted to rule everything even in the comics there is that page... This comes from the Garmadon comics Garmadon issue #2
Note the line "land of ash"
This implies they'd turn things to ash but less of a destroy the realm in its entireity if we are taking it literally with what Garmadon says as far as destruction such as what Loyd and TheOrange are saying ... that still leaves matter now converted to ash and an entirely untouched 4th dimension of time as there would still be a future in a land of ash according to the implication Garmadon could still rule over it hypothetically. The comics Garmadon take place after the episode Ending season 10 episode 4
Still a future, not a 2-C feat then involving the space-time
This happens after the Oni's invasion and before the 11th season. The Image Comics line from what I know is canon.
Sorry to grab the one scan from the comics on you.
Turning things to 'ash' given the cloud and Garmadon's own admission.
Before someone says something about the comics...
This is pulled straight from the Ninjago Wiki:
"It is confirmed to be canon by multiple sources, though the TV series does not acknowledge its events. This is likely due to the fact that the comic series was not planned until after Crystalized had already been written." There is an interview from the author as well that goes over parts of canon, in addition to Lego and Skyline Comics saying they were going to do it, the only inconsistency being the helmet aspect and non-mention by the tv series.
Hopefully the comics provide further context in this case? (Also did you get into the calc group recently? If so that's awesome! if it was a while ago I must not have seen it previously but that is still awesome!)
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Also, the power of Creation includes Time Element, and even small part of it can warp the entire space-time, meanwhile full element is a threat to the very fabric of existence.
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They are 4D space-times, not spaces. They are 3 dimensions of space + 1 time, not 4 dimensions of space + 1 of time
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