Ninjago Garmadon Downgrade

[Lloydblitzed]

The scans of it saying "they can destroy the realms" are meaningless. HOW are they doing it? We already have a statement on how, but none of the scans mention the physical destruction of the realm, only spacially filling them up with darkness, which is important for statements like this.

By that logic, every "destroy the realms" scans from the verse aren't at least Low 2-C to 2-C, because "they don't mention the physical destruction of the realm"

 

[Arceus0x]

By that logic, every "destroy the realms" scans from the verse aren't at least Low 2-C to 2-C, because "they don't mention the physical destruction of the realm"

his argument is that the way they destroy the realms is already described and it doesn't fit the bill. Meanwhile you're arguing semantics

 

[Lloydblitzed]

his argument is that the way they destroy the realms is already described and it doesn't fit the bill. Meanwhile you're arguing semantics

And anyways, we can rebunk this via Oni Garmadon, his actual full power, where we see him harming Crystal King, who is 2-C

 

[Minaaaa]

And anyways, we can rebunk this via Oni Garmadon, his actual full power, where we see him harming Crystal King, who is 2-C

Garmadon was shown not be comparable to the CK at all, CK was stronger than both lloyd and garmadon in that fight

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Garmadon was shown not be comparable to the CK at all, CK was stronger than both lloyd and garmadon in that fight

He was harming him until bro powered up into his centaur form, so nah

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

He was harming him until bro powered up into his centaur form, so nah

No scratch and CK didn't even felt it... Remind you: Garmadon used his Oni form.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

No scratch and CK didn't even felt it... Remind you: Garmadon used his Oni form.

1.His Oni form is his peak form lol
2. He was harming pre-centaur Crystal King, aka this version

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

We can go vice versa: putting the Realms into the Darkness could be the figurative of destroying the Realms (in a sense that there will be nothing left from them). Onis decided to invade the Realms first, defeating those who could prevent their plan from happening (Ninjas, Dragons, Monks, etc.). Then they would destroy them. Also, it would make no sense for Garmadon to desperately the Ninjas: all he cared is for the survival, and Garmadon is unaffected by Oni’s Cloud, so his actions would make no sense. Also it would make no sense for Oni’s power to be called Destruction and shown to destroy the tree which Dragon created (in Mistake explaining origins of FSM scene). Also if you think logically, FSM was a child “having powers of both sides” (Onis and Dragons), so it hints that he used his Creation side of Golden Power from Dragons to create the Realms, hence he would be able to destroy them using his Destruction side of Golden Power from Onis (although it isn’t really stated anywhere, it isn’t my main proof, but more of logical backup). Also Garmadon’s Oni form would still scale to 2-C due to harming Crystal King and tanking his blasts.

For how long are you gonna ignore my points?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

No scratch and CK didn't even felt it... Remind you: Garmadon used his Oni form.

He literally moaned from his one fireball in base and was getting harmed from Garmadon’s full blast when he was in Centaur form…

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Except this is explicitly NOT what the Oni are doing. They aren't destroying or affecting the entire dimensional structure of the realm, they are just filling the realms up with their cloud of darkness, they literally say and show this in the show

Wu: It is an Oni. My father called them the Bringers of Doom. He feared that they would one day spread out from their realm and cover all the lands of creation in darkness.

The Oni "Destroying the Realms" is them taking over the realms and filling them with their cloud, not the destruction of the entire space-time.

“Cover all lands of creation in darkness”
Covering something in darkness is very bague statement. For example, you can put the entire Earth in darkness if you destroy the Sun. You can put your house into the darkness if you turn off all the lights at night. But it also could mean the destruction of the structure, and covering in darkness would figuratively mean leaving nothing behing. So how do we know what does that mean? Oh, yes, we look at the secondary sources, which tell us that Onis DO actually destroy the Realms. Their powers are LITERALLY called Destruction.
And also I already explained why simple putting Realms into the Dark Cloud would make Garmadon’s motivation throught THE ENTIRE ONI TRILOGY stupid because he literally can survive inside of it, and as you said “they don’t destroy the buildings, etc. via this Cloud”, so why would he even bother about Onis’ invasion. He only cared for survival and nobody/nothing else (besides the very end where he truly cared for Lloyd). If nothing was about to be destroyed, and Onis’ plan was simply “ah we are gonna just fill the Realms with the Black Cloud fr”, Garmadon could literally just hide somewhere and do nothing at all.

STOP. IGNORING. ME.

 

[Minaaaa]

For how long are you gonna ignore my points?

your points dont change anything

• We can go vice versa: putting the Realms into the Darkness could be the figurative of destroying the Realms (in a sense that there will be nothing left from them). Onis decided to invade the Realms first, defeating those who could prevent their plan from happening (Ninjas, Dragons, Monks, etc.). Then they would destroy them.

for one, this is literally speculation and doesnt line up with what the series shows and given their cloud isnt physical destruction.

• Also, it would make no sense for Garmadon to desperately the Ninjas: all he cared is for the survival, and Garmadon is unaffected by Oni’s Cloud, so his actions would make no sense.

Given that Garmadon says he wanted to rule ninjago and not let the oni take over, they would most likely kill Garmadon if they werent stopped, since the omega was shown to be vastly stronger than garmadon

• Also it would make no sense for Oni’s power to be called Destruction and shown to destroy the tree which Dragon created (in Mistake explaining origins of FSM scene). Also if you think logically, FSM was a child “having powers of both sides” (Onis and Dragons), so it hints that he used his Creation side of Golden Power from Dragons to create the Realms, hence he would be able to destroy them using his Destruction side of Golden Power from Onis (although it isn’t really stated anywhere, it isn’t my main proof, but more of logical backup).

That tree thing was a vision and not literal, given what we see of the Oni's power in the show.

 

[Minaaaa]

“Cover all lands of creation in darkness”
Covering something in darkness is very bague statement. For example, you can put the entire Earth in darkness if you destroy the Sun. You can put your house into the darkness if you turn off all the lights at night. But it also could mean the destruction of the structure, and covering in darkness would figuratively mean leaving nothing behing. So how do we know what does that mean? Oh, yes, we look at the secondary sources, which tell us that Onis DO actually destroy the Realms. Their powers are LITERALLY called Destruction.
And also I already explained why simple putting Realms into the Dark Cloud would make Garmadon’s motivation throught THE ENTIRE ONI TRILOGY stupid because he literally can survive inside of it, and as you said “they don’t destroy the buildings, etc. via this Cloud”, so why would he even bother about Onis’ invasion. He only cared for survival and nobody/nothing else (besides the very end where he truly cared for Lloyd). If nothing was about to be destroyed, and Onis’ plan was simply “ah we are gonna just fill the Realms with the Black Cloud fr”, Garmadon could literally just hide somewhere and do nothing at all.

STOP. IGNORING. ME.

Covering the realms in darkness isnt a vague statement in the case since we literally see what they mean by this.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Given that Garmadon says he wanted to rule ninjago and not let the oni take over, they would most likely kill Garmadon if they werent stopped, since the omega was shown to be vastly stronger than garmadon

Then why did he say "They will destroy EVERYTHING"
He even implies NOTHING WILL BE LEFT

He's also reliable as he saw their plan

His words changes EVERYTHING and completly invalidates whatever ur tryna pull

You are not countering this one in any way

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

your points dont change anything

for one, this is literally speculation and doesnt line up with what the series shows and given their cloud isnt physical destruction.

Given that Garmadon says he wanted to rule ninjago and not let the oni take over, they would most likely kill Garmadon if they werent stopped, since the omega was shown to be vastly stronger than garmadon


That tree thing was a vision and not literal, given what we see of the Oni's power in the show.

They do

1. It does, do I have to bring up the statements of Onis being capable of destroying everything?

2. He wanted to take over the city in order to defeat Onis, not vice versa. In Season 10 he doesn’t understand Ninjas caring so much about Cole and emphasizing the survival, so his intentions were to survive, which he easily could.

3. A vision from Mistake, who is literally Oni herself (ex-General btw).

The name of their powers itself, the websites, EVERYTHING implies that Onis will destroy all of the Realms, stop strawmanning. Also you ignored the point with FSM.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Then why did he say "They will destroy EVERYTHING"
He even implies NOTHING WILL BE LEFT

He's also reliable as he saw their plan

His words changes EVERYTHING and completly invalidates whatever ur tryna pull

You are not countering this one in any way

Huge W, I think the debate is already dead by now.

It is stated by Garmadon, secondary sources, implied by Wu and the name of the power itself. All the OP relies on is “Wu says they will cover Realms into the darkness” which can mean the destruction too, so

 

[Minaaaa]

Then why did he say "They will destroy EVERYTHING"
He even implies NOTHING WILL BE LEFT

He's also reliable as he saw their plan

His words changes EVERYTHING and completly invalidates whatever ur tryna pull

You are not countering this one in any way

Literally nothing in those clouds were gone. Why werent the ninjago city buildings gone? Why wasnt pixal's mech gone? Why wasnt cole's car gone? Why werent any of the people gone? Hell why wasnt the realm of oni and dragon gone? wu's own words and the book of elemental powers say the oni were just covering the realms in their darkness

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Read the top text. Destruction only wants to erase all life. Didn't stated about erase all Realms.

Destroying the Realms allow you to erase all the life tho?

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Literally nothing in those clouds were gone. Why werent the ninjago city buildings gone? Why wasnt pixal's mech gone? Why wasnt cole's car gone? Why werent any of the people gone? Hell why wasnt the realm of oni and dragon gone? wu's own words and the book of elemental powers say the oni were just covering the realms in their darkness

Maybe bc the Ninjas stopped those clouds ? Nothing even contradicts the Onis being able to destroy the Realms buddy, and they were clearly affecting the whole thing

 

[Arceus0x]

I will let y'all argue it out without me however I do have an issue with the tier of it all

I'd like to see how these clouds are spread and how Oni get them to other realms. With scans please. Yes its important as the way they spread will determine the tiering.

 

[Minaaaa]

Destroying the Realms allow you to erase all the life tho?

two different things, you can erase life without destroying the realm, just like u can destroy the life on earth without destroying the planet

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

The scans of it saying "they can destroy the realms" are meaningless. HOW are they doing it? We already have a statement on how, but none of the scans mention the physical destruction of the realm, only spacially filling them up with darkness, which is important for statements like this.

Where it says that Cloud of Destruction is how they destroy the Realms? They only used it to defeat other beings like Dragons and Ninjas.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

two different things, you can erase life without destroying the realm, just like u can destroy the life on earth without destroying the planet

The book itself says that Onis would destroy the Ninjago Realm TWO PAGES LATER. Guess then who is right relying solely on this book: me or you.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Where it says that Cloud of Destruction is how they destroy the Realms? They only used it to defeat other beings like Dragons and Ninjas.

That's actually a good point, they never said they would specifically destroy it using the Cloud of Destruction

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Literally nothing in those clouds were gone. Why werent the ninjago city buildings gone? Why wasnt pixal's mech gone? Why wasnt cole's car gone? Why werent any of the people gone? Hell why wasnt the realm of oni and dragon gone? wu's own words and the book of elemental powers say the oni were just covering the realms in their darkness

Do you realize that Garmadon is much more reliable here due to him ACTUALLY seeing Onis and being older brother. Also again, “covering the realms in their darkness” here means to destroy them, because in the SAME Book of Elements Onis are stated to eventually destroy Ninjago Realms if not for Ninjas lmao

 

[Minaaaa]

Maybe bc the Ninjas stopped those clouds ? Nothing even contradicts the Onis being able to destroy the Realms buddy, and they were clearly affecting the whole thing

What are you even arguing? Those things were in the cloud of a long amount of time and none of them were gone. If ur arguing their destruction takes place after they take over the realm, you'd have to prove that because nothing shows or implies this

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

What are you even arguing? Those things were in the cloud of a long amount of time and none of them were gone. If ur arguing their destruction takes place after they take over the realm, you'd have to prove that because nothing shows or implies this

“Nothing implies this”
The Book of Elements:
Garmadon:
Oni’s power literally being Destruction:

 

[Lloydblitzed]

What are you even arguing? Those things were in the cloud of a long amount of time and none of them were gone. If ur arguing their destruction takes place after they take over the realm, you'd have to prove that because nothing shows or implies this

Every single scans is against u

 

[Zeinx1]

I disagree with the OP after what Lloydblitzed said

 

[Minaaaa]

The book itself says that Onis would destroy the Ninjago Realm TWO PAGES LATER. Guess then who is right relying solely on this book: me or you.

its not meaning literal, physical destruction of the entire realm, The Oni are just covering the realm in their cloud, the show literally says this, ur ignoring Wu's own words of saying this exact thing. As i said before, saying "Destroying x" means literally NOTHING without inseries context or explanation. For example; character a is stated to destroy the world but he only destroys the surface of the planet; character b is stated to destroy the universe, but does so through their conquest of the universe by taking over planets. See how none of these statements mean anything, but internal context makes them mean something.

“Nothing implies this”
The Book of Elements:
Garmadon:
Oni’s power literally being Destruction:

• Book of Elemental Powers doesn't contradict me, in fact it supports my point
• Given what we see of the Oni in the very next episode/season and nothing was physically destroyed when they were in their cloud, he's likely exaggerating
• This is a non point

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

its not meaning literal, physical destruction of the entire realm, The Oni are just covering the realm in their cloud, the show literally says this, ur ignoring Wu's own words of saying this exact thing. As i said before, saying "Destroying x" means literally NOTHING without inseries context or explanation. For example; character a is stated to destroy the world but he only destroys the surface of the planet; character b is stated to destroy the universe, but does so through their conquest of the universe by taking over planets. See how none of these statements mean anything, but internal context makes them mean something.

• Book of Elemental Powers doesn't contradict me, in fact it supports my point
• Given what we see of the Oni in the very next episode/season and nothing was physically destroyed when they were in their cloud, he's likely exaggerating
• This is a non point

Putting the Realms into the darkness, again, means figuratively their destruction. You never proved Cloud of Destruction being a tool that destroys Realms, this was never stated, it is purely your head-canon. Do you realize that Tiers are given for Creation/Destruction certain structures?.. And yeah, you never proved that Cloud of Destruction is how exactly they destroy the Realms.

BoE doesn’t support you at all…
You literally proved that Cloud is not the way they destroy the Realms, thank you
Then what should Destruction mean? “Filling up the Realms with black cloud”?
Also the descriptions of the S10 series literally support my point furthermore.

 

[Minaaaa]

Putting the Realms into the darkness, again, means figuratively their destruction. You never proved Cloud of Destruction being a tool that destroys Realms, this was never stated, it is purely your head-canon. Do you realize that Tiers are given for Creation/Destruction certain structures?.. And yeah, you never proved that Cloud of Destruction is how exactly they destroy the Realms.

Given the scans lloyd posted, the cloud IS how they "destroy" the realms. The BoE literally calls it a cloud of Destruction

• scans say they can "destroy" the realms
• wu and BoE says their cloud would cover all the realms

This is just simple common sense, since they've showed no other destruction power

BoE doesn’t support you at all…
You literally proved that Cloud is not the way they destroy the Realms, thank you
Then what should Destruction mean? “Filling up the Realms with black cloud”?
Also the descriptions of the S10 series literally support my point furthermore.

BoE and Lloyd's scans only further the point that the cloud is the way they're doing it and futher that its not the physically destruction of the realm and its space-time

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Given the scans lloyd posted, the cloud IS how they "destroy" the realms. The BoE literally calls it a cloud of Destruction

• scans say they can "destroy" the realms
• wu and BoE says their cloud would cover all the realms

This is just simple common sense, since they've showed no other destruction power

BoE and Lloyd's scans only further the point that the cloud is the way they're doing it and futher that its not the physically destruction of the realm and its space-time

Oh, so we now do care about name “Cloud of Destruction” after two pages of discussion? Either way, here it does not matter because the name is just referring to the ability of the power, “Cloud” of the power “Destruction”. Also which LloydBlitzed’s scans imply that Cloud is what destroys the Realms?
As you yourself conceded, Cloud has no destructive power, which is why they do NOT destroy the Realms via it.
They don’t do it, stop strawmanning.

 

[Minaaaa]

Also which LloydBlitzed’s scans imply that Cloud is what destroys the Realms?

also the show and trailer literally shows them covering the realms in their cloud

 

[Minaaaa]

Oh, so we now do care about name “Cloud of Destruction” after two pages of discussion? Either way, here it does not matter because the name is just referring to the ability of the power, “Cloud” of the power “Destruction”. Also which LloydBlitzed’s scans imply that Cloud is what destroys the Realms?
As you yourself conceded, Cloud has no destructive power, which is why they do NOT destroy the Realms via it.
They don’t do it, stop strawmanning.

Also, If the cloud isnt 'destroying' the realms, then how are they doing it? They sure arent doing it physically, so what is the method they are using?

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Also, If the cloud isnt 'destroying' the realms, then how are they doing it? They sure arent doing it physically, so what is the method they are using?

The "Nothing will be left" statement implies that the Cloud would eventually obliderate everything once it convers the whole Multiverse

 

[Minaaaa]

The "Nothing will be left" statement implies that the Cloud would eventually obliderate everything once it convers the whole Multiverse

This still wouldnt make it 2-C, as if this is true, it would only affect them spatially as the cloud only extends to the space and not the entire space-time

 

[Lloydblitzed]

This still wouldnt make it 2-C, as if this is true, it would only affect them spatially as the cloud only extends to the space and not the entire space-time

Nothing will be left implies those realms would get vaporized. The Cloud could just cover everything in darkness and then destroy everything, hence why the scans and Garmadon tells us "Nothing will be left" and not "All form of life will be gone"

 

[Minaaaa]

Nothing will be left implies those realms would get vaporized. The Cloud could just cover everything in darkness and then destroy everything, hence why the scans and Garmadon tells us "Nothing will be left" and not "All form of life will be gone"

Not really, "leaving nothing" could imply that all the matter is getting erased or something. But since the show never explains or shows what he means, it's most likely spatial destruction

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Not really, "leaving nothing" could imply that all the matter is getting erased or something. But since the show never explains or shows what he means, it's most likely spatial destruction

Leaving nothing clearly implies the Realm going bye bye

 

[Minaaaa]

Leaving nothing clearly implies the Realm going bye bye

Leaving nothing could also mean destroying the matter, this is an incredibly vague statement