Keeping Up With The Olympians (2 of ????)

[KingTempest]

Fine, but remember that these stars are hung in the Earth's atmosphere, meaning they don't need anywhere near the power of brightening a regular constellation to be visible.

The milky way in the greek's view is in the atmosphere of earth?

Idky but I have a hard time agreeing with that

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

The milky way in the greek's view is in the atmosphere of earth?

Idky but I have a hard time agreeing with that

In Greek mythology, the stars are hung on the vault of the sky, which they believed was a physical thing.

 

[Armorchompy]

The issue with the tier 3 stuff (actually just higher tier 4, as dumb as it sounds, creating galaxies isn't 3-C) is that Percy himself isn't confident at all in the story being true, that's just not a good basis for a rating.

 

[KingTempest]

In Greek mythology, the stars are hung on the vault of the sky, which they believed was a physical thing.

Is that specifically in the Riordanverse, or is that just our knowledge of Greek mythology in general

Because even in things like the Ptolemaic system, they believe in the existence of other planets outside of the bounds of earth

 

[KingTempest]

The issue with the tier 3 stuff (actually just higher tier 4, as dumb as it sounds, creating galaxies isn't 3-C) is that Percy himself isn't confident at all in the story being true, that's just not a good basis for a rating.

Because he's surprised at the ridiculousness of it.

I don’t know. That seems like a whole lot of solar systems from just one squirt.

 

[Antvasima]

What do you think should be done here, Armorchompy and IdiosyncraticLawyer?

 

[Testarossa002]

sighs
I'll make one final post that hopes to address whatever issues anyone has with a full rating.
Then lawyer can choose to respond to it.

The post should be here later today but no later than Friday.
If the current stances remain as is, we'll have no choice than to wait for further staff input.

.

.

.

.

 

[Armorchompy]

Because he's surprised at the ridiculousness of it.

So? He hasn't heard it from any reliable sources, he thinks it's far-fetched, and with all his experience on the topic he doesn't think it's likely to be true. It doesn't really matter why, if our only source on the story doesn't think it's real we can't just go "oh it's definitely real lol"

 

[Testarossa002]

Tier 4
My primary argument for it was on the way the belief system works in the verse.
To recap

Divine/Monster stuffs are born out of loads of people believing in the same thing, effectively warping reality

To add to that, the fuel that is responsible for the Western Civilization are the gods themselves. Or at least, they're tied to it's existence

Come now, Percy. What you call “Western civilization”. Do you think it’s just an abstract concept? No, it’s a living force. A collective consciousness that has burned bright for thousands of years. The gods are part of it. You might even say they are the source of it, or at least, they are tied so tightly to it that they couldn’t possibly fade, not unless all of Western civilization were obliterated.
The fire started in Greece. Then, as you well know – or as I hope you know, since you passed my course – the heart of the fire moved to Rome, and so did the gods. Oh, different names, perhaps – Jupiter for Zeus, Venus for Aphrodite, and so on – but the same forces, the same gods.’ ‘And then they died.’ ‘Died? No. Did the West die? The gods simply moved, to Germany, to France, to Spain, for a while. Wherever the flame was brightest, the gods were there. They spent several centuries in England. All you need to do is look at the architecture. People do not forget the gods. Every place they’ve ruled, for the last three thousand years, you can see them in paintings, in statues, on the most important buildings. And yes, Percy, of course they are now in your United States. Look at your symbol, the eagle of Zeus. Look at the statue of Prometheus in Rockefeller Center, the Greek facades of your government buildings in Washington. I defy you to find any American city where the Olympians are not prominently displayed in multiple places. Like it or not – and believe me, plenty of people weren’t very fond of Rome, either – America is now the heart of the flame. It is the great power of the West. And so Olympus is here. And we are here.’

No,” Rhea said. “Just the worst of them, the most notorious. They live in human memory, man.
That’s what keeps them alive. Same as us, really. They’re tied to the course of Western civilization, even though that whole concept is imperialist Eurocentric propaganda, man. Like my guru would tell you—”

What is Western Civilization?
According to Wikipedia

A cornerstone of Western thought, beginning in ancient Greece and continuing through the Middle Ages and Renaissance, is the idea of rationalism in various spheres of life developed by Hellenistic philosophy, scholasticism and humanism. Empiricism later gave rise to the scientific method, the scientific revolution, and the Age of Enlightenment.

Their existence is tied to all these things.
They shape who they are.
They are not limited to the beliefs of "atmosphere height stars"

Tier 5
As shown earlier, the gods can interact with scientific phenomenon.
The stars are not big light bulbs in the atmosphere, given that:
Piper's dad who's completely mortal can see constellations. Which should not be possible given how mortals can't see the supernatural

They’d spread their sleeping bags and listened to the cicadas buzzing in the trees. Piper pointed out the constellations she’d been reading about—Hercules, Apollo’s lyre, Sagittarius the centaur.
Her dad crossed his arms behind his head. In his old T-shirt and jeans he looked like just another guy from T ahlequah, Oklahoma, a Cherokee who might’ve never left tribal lands.
“Y our grandpa would say those Greek patterns are a bunch of bull. He told me the stars were creatures with glowing fur, like magic hedgehogs. Once, long ago, some hunters even captured a few in the forest. They didn’t know what they’d done until nighttime, when the star creatures began to glow. Golden sparks flew from their fur, so the Cherokee released them back into the sky.”

Demigods have been quite high above the atmosphere, yet, they did not bump into bright bulbs even though there are millions of them

SO MUCH FOR A TENDER FAREWELL.
The last Jason saw of his dad, Zeus was a hundred feet tall, holding the Argo II by its prow. He boomed, ‘HOLD ON!’ Then he tossed the ship up and spiked it overhand like a volleyball.
If Jason hadn’t been strapped to the mast with one of Leo’s twenty-point safety harnesses, he would have disintegrated. As it was, his stomach tried to stay behind in Greece and all the air was sucked out of his lungs.
The sky turned black. The ship rattled and creaked. The deck cracked like thin ice under Jason’s legs and, with a sonic boom, the Argo II hurtled out of the clouds.

If they gained any more altitude, the air would be too thin to breathe. Jason would be too weak to control it. Piper’s talk of exhaustion affected him, too, sapping his strength, making his body feel heavy.
‘What you want,’ Piper continued, ‘more than victory, more than revenge … you want rest. You are so weary, so incomprehensibly tired of the ungrateful mortals and immortals.’ ‘I – YOU DO NOT SPEAK FOR ME – YOU CANNOT –’

Already addressed the Sun and moon chariot conundrum in the OP

---

With this few points of mine, I hope i have been able to convince you that the gods have legitimate celestial feats

Antvasima said:
.

KingTempest said:
.

Armorchompy said:
.

IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Tier 4
My primary argument for it was on the way the belief system works in the verse.
To recap


To add to that, the fuel that is responsible for the Western Civilization are the gods themselves. Or at least, they're tied to it's existence


What is Western Civilization?
According to Wikipedia

Their existence is tied to all these things.
They shape who they are.
They are not limited to the beliefs of "atmosphere height stars"

This is, admittedly, valid evidence pointing to the gods at least being somewhat able to influence science.

Tier 5
As shown earlier, the gods can interact with scientific phenomenon.
The stars are not big light bulbs in the atmosphere, given that:
Piper's dad who's completely mortal can see constellations. Which should not be possible given how mortals can't see the supernatural

Demigods have been quite high above the atmosphere, yet, they did not bump into bright bulbs even though there are millions of them



Already addressed the Sun and moon chariot conundrum in the OP

---

With this few points of mine, I hope i have been able to convince you that the gods have legitimate celestial feats

For the first quote, that's such a non-point. Tristan can see constellations because most constellations have mythological and scientific counterparts. The only ones he wouldn't be able to see are the ones the gods made after people stopped believing in the myths, which wouldn't have scientific counterparts, like the Huntress. For the second two quotes, in Greek mythology, the stars are clearly meant to be much higher than the stratosphere, as the sun, which flies above the clouds, had to be taken extremely off-course for Phaethon to approach the constellations. Flying in a ship in the clouds and flying high enough to have trouble breathing takes you nowhere near the heights constellations are meant to be at in either mythology or science, so the fact that the demigods didn't approach stars makes sense under both systems.
Conclusion
I've already expressed that I'm fine with a "possibly High 4-C" rating based on how the gods have circumstantial evidence indicating they can somewhat affect science. However, given how drastic this jump in power is, even without any anti-feats, we must exercise some degree of caution. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If you want to convince me that the gods should have a full "High 4-C" rating, show me an explicit, unambiguous quote from a reliable source directly confirming that the gods manipulate scientific stars when making constellations.

 

[Testarossa002]

I've given you a on screen feat
I've given you 2 tier 4 statements
I've explained the mechanics behind the feat

Wanting a:

Artemis created stars that are born out of nuclear fusion and are several light years away from earth.

Is just being disingenuous as hell

Heck, these guys know exactly what planets look like

I scanned our surroundings, wondering what had upset Meg so badly.
Below us stretched a landscape only slightly more hospitable than Mars. (I mean the planet, not the god, though I suppose neither is much of a host.) Sun-blasted ochre mountains ringed a valley patchworked with unnaturally green golf courses, dusty barren flats and sprawling neighbourhoods of white stucco walls, red-tiled roofs and blue swimming pools. Lining the streets, rows of listless palm trees stuck up like raggedy seams. Asphalt parking lots shimmered in the heat. A brown haze hung in the air, filling the valley like watery gravy

But whatever
I'll wait to see what others think of it.

 

[KingTempest]

So? He hasn't heard it from any reliable sources, he thinks it's far-fetched, and with all his experience on the topic he doesn't think it's likely to be true. It doesn't really matter why, if our only source on the story doesn't think it's real we can't just go "oh it's definitely real lol"

It's a real life myth of the origins of the milky way.

It never says his source is dubious. He only says it's far fetched because it's a galaxy coming out of a breast.

Not that it's not a real myth, not that the source is bad, not that it doesn't match up w/ a timeline
But because it doesn't make sense for a galaxy to fit in your upper body, yet that's how it came to be

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I've given you a on screen feat

Which depends on having valid evidence to establish it as scientific stars. The evidence is what we're debating.

I've given you 2 tier 4 statements

Those aren't direct Tier 4 statements, they're statements one can infer a Tier 4 rating from if you squint.

I've explained the mechanics behind the feat

Which are dependent on circumstantial evidence.

Wanting a:

Is just being disingenuous as hell

Heck, these guys know exactly what planets look like

It's not me being disingenuous, it's me trying to exercise caution. I've already acknowledged that you're presenting strong circumstantial evidence, but we do still need to account for the remaining uncertainty we have - that is, as I said, unless you prove this premise unambiguously, which I am open to hearing evidence for. I've already given a lot of ground here, and I do hope you can be at least somewhat open to compromise.
@Antvasima

 

[Armorchompy]

It's a real life myth of the origins of the milky way.

It never says his source is dubious. He only says it's far fetched because it's a galaxy coming out of a breast.

Not that it's not a real myth, not that the source is bad, not that it doesn't match up w/ a timeline
But because it doesn't make sense for a galaxy to fit in your upper body, yet that's how it came to be

He says "some legends say" which is enough to question the feat in itself, I understand the verse's mechanics but they don't mean that literally every single myth is true, otherwise every single Olympian would be a mass rapist and murderer which I don't think is what Riordan was going for. It doesn't come from a reliable source, it's literally just hearsay. Then he doubts that it might even be possible which like, yeah I don't think he's necessarily wrong in that. He knows the verse's mechanics way better than we do, I'd give him the time of day.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

He says "some legends say" which is enough to question the feat in itself, I understand the verse's mechanics but they don't mean that literally every single myth is true, otherwise every single Olympian would be a mass rapist and murderer which I don't think is what Riordan was going for. It doesn't come from a reliable source, it's literally just hearsay. Then he doubts that it might even be possible which like, yeah I don't think he's necessarily wrong in that. He knows the verse's mechanics way better than we do, I'd give him the time of day.

Tbf patricide, fratricide, coup de'tats, child abandonment, disproportionate revenge and more still run rampant in Riordanland so honestly it wouldn't be out of character for the gods to add those to their rap sheets, but you are right in that Percy is inherently more knowledgeable on the verse than any of us

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm not saying the gods are great people but it still a series for teenagers, it's not gonna get that dark. I recall that the Apollo novels in particular do reframe some of the myths in which he tries to rape someone only for them to escape him as... not that.

 

[Antvasima]

@Armorchompy @IdiosyncraticLawyer @KingTempest

So should be use "possibly High 4-C" as a cautious compromise solution here?

 

[Armorchompy]

it's what i'd go with

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

@Armorchompy @IdiosyncraticLawyer @KingTempest

So should be use "possibly High 4-C" as a cautious compromise solution here?

Sure. High 4-C ratings are an enormous leap from the otherwise consistent Tier 6 peak of the Olympian gods, and I've already given a lot of ground on this topic by even reluctantly agreeing to a "possibly High 4-C" end based on highly contentious circumstantial evidence. Trying to argue that the gods should have a full High 4-C rating is extremely unreasonable when the evidence is so indirect and contrived.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I agree with that solution being applied then. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Testarossa002]

Okay. I agree with that solution being applied then. Thank you for helping out.

Thank you also for responding here

Evaluating staff votes are split 2(Yourself and Armor) : 1(KT)

Mind tagging some other staffs here?

So we can get this concluded.

 

[Testarossa002]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

@Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Gilad_Hyperstar @RegisNex1232 @Zaratthustra @Jvando

@DarkGrath @Moritzva @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @LephyrTheRevanchist @FinePoint

What do you think about this?

 

[Planck69]

Based on the arguments I can agree with 6-A as a minimum but Tier 4 does have some merit to it. Perhaps a Possibly rating for it?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Based on the arguments I can agree with 6-A as a minimum but Tier 4 does have some merit to it. Perhaps a Possibly rating for it?

Yes, that's what Ant and Armor agreed to. I'm fine with a "possibly High 4-C" as a compromise too.

 

[Testarossa002]

Based on the arguments I can agree with 6-A as a minimum but Tier 4 does have some merit to it. Perhaps a Possibly rating for it?

Thank you for your evaluation

 

[Zaratthustra]

Agree with the above reasoning for a normal tier 6 with a possible tier 4 rating.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

@Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Gilad_Hyperstar @RegisNex1232 @Zaratthustra @Jvando

@DarkGrath @Moritzva @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @LephyrTheRevanchist @FinePoint

What do you think about this?

Is that regarding Artemis' constellation feat? I guess a possibly rating could work

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

It seems like we have reached a conclusion here that can be applied then.

 

[Testarossa002]

I'm in the process of creating brand new profiles for them.
So no applying for now.

If no new evaluating votes opposes the majority here in the next few hours, this can be closed

Onwards to Part 3

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Tell us here when we should close this thread please.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

For anyone who sees this thread, the current consensus is a "6-A, possibly High 4-C" rating.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes.

 

[Testarossa002]

Next thread

Keeping Up With The Olympians (3 of ????)

Continued from here This would be divided into two parts. That's because, the first part doesn't really have much to do with the gods themselves. Rather, it focuses on one of the arguments in the downgrade thread. That's all for now. Let's begin.

vsbattles.com

Yes.

This thread can be closed
Along with this

Keeping Up With The Olympians (1 of ???)

So, I've been putting off creating a compilation abilities and resistances of the Greco-Roman Pantheon. After working on individual profiles for a while, I went **** IT and made it anyways. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Testarossa002/Riordanverse_Gods I still made the individual...

vsbattles.com

Big thanks to everyone who participated here.