Possible Downgrade for LN Rimuru CM type 2.

[EldemadeDityjon]

In proving that an essential is a concept, it is not necessary to assert that the essence is stated to be able to govern everything that is the embodiment of the concept, literally the concept can certainly do that. We can prove existence is a concept by showing that the existence of a person in question is the Source or fundamental of whatever it is, Or where it is shown is a existence that represents each essence that correlates with itself, such as the concept of space representing each space in Reality.

Embodiments of concepts would grant AE type 2 not type 1. If they are concepts themselves then type 1

As @Thunderian said, do not ask for proof that the disappearance of the existence of true dragons can affect reality because in fiction there is no mention of a series of narratives that say that true drgaons can die.

Yeah sure if you are willing to accept it's AE type 2 concepts. Because AE1 type does need feats or Statement for affecting reality.

Attribute is another name for the Great spirit / Divine spirit. In the novel Great spirit is eligible for type 1 concept because Divine Spirit has 8 types, namely Spirit time, Space, Earth, Wind, Dark, Light, Water, Fire. The divine spirit gave birth to spirits, primordial, true dragons, Great spirits as well as independent from the universe. Unfortunately no one has made a CRT about it yet

Then it can be applied when the CRT is made then. For now remove it.

Reiner's and Thunderian's points seemed to makes more sense.

Disagree FRA

When did Reiner even made a comment here?

 

[Shereen]

Embodiments of concepts would grant AE type 2 not type 1. If they are concepts themselves then type 1

You misinterpreted my argument, what I said above only corrected your misinterpretation in describing the nature of the concept (Concpet Qualification)

Yeah sure if you are willing to accept it's AE type 2 concepts. Because AE1 type does need feats or Statement for affecting reality.

I'm totally not disputing the Ae type 1 and switching to type 2, bruh, since when did our standards say that getting Ae1 requires afecting reality, Ae type 1 literally becomes an abstraction itself. There is no standard stating that Ae type 1 is required to effect reality on the page Abstract Existence

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

You misinterpreted my argument, what I said above only corrected your misinterpretation in describing the nature of the concept (Concpet Qualification)

I'm totally not disputing the Ae type 1 and switching to type 2, bruh, since when did our standards say that getting Ae1 requires afecting reality, Ae type 1 literally becomes an abstraction itself. There is no standard stating that Ae type 1 is required to effect reality on the page Abstract Existence

Embodiments of something is AE type 2 not type 1. And Conceptual Manipulation does states you need to affect reality to get CM type.

If they are concepts themselves then they should have some short of statement or feats to back it up to show affecting or destroying them would impact the reality in a big time.

 

[Shereen]

Embodiments of something is AE type 2 not type 1. And Conceptual Manipulation does states you need to affect reality to get CM type.

I never said that the embodiment of abstraction would get Ae type 1.

If they are concepts themselves then they should have some short of statement or feats to back it up to show affecting or destroying them would impact the reality in a big time.

You have to go back to understanding the definition of Concept, someone who is Concept Existence can literally do that, Does the concept of space require a statement that it can influence space further to qualify the concept as a legitimate space concept? And I've explained the definition of Concept from the start, you just need to re-read and understand it.

 

[Catpija]

When did Reiner even made a comment here?

I swear that was Reiner

My bad, i meant @Shereen

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

You have to go back to understanding the definition of Concept, someone who is Concept Existence can literally do that, Does the concept of space require a statement that it can influence space further to qualify the concept as a legitimate space concept? And I've explained the definition of Concept from the start, you just need to re-read and understand it.

There is a big difference between Concepts of space and source of the world. We don't even know why they called it Source of the world is there even a further explanation?

Yes mentioning concepts of space Doesn't need anything to prove because it's straightforward but here you need statement or feats because it's not mentioned it as Concept. We are trying to figure it out if it's concepts or not via feat or statement which explains what is a Concept.

 

[DeusExMachine001]

We are repeating the same things , I think we should wait for the rest of the staffs

 

[Shereen]

There is a big difference between Concepts of space and source of the world. We don't even know why they called it Source of the world is there even a further explanation?

As before, it's a good idea to understand the definition of the concept again. Said source has shown that Para True Dragon exists as a world concept.

Concept definition, understand, concept definition

 

[Lesser_Goddess_Alexia]

First, True Dragons have become a fundamental abstract when there is a statement that they are the Source of the world/Root of the world. Second, They are also the Holy Will of Nature existing only as a Will which is their form of abstraction. This alone is actually enough to make them a Type 2 Concept.

 

[Lesser_Goddess_Alexia]

Concept definition

Concept is an abstract idea of something. And Of course True Dragons are that thing because they are Holy WILL of NATURE.

 

[Rizkykarbit]

Great Sprits is irrelevant to this thread.

Is there a statement about this in official translations?

Not yet, because it is in volume 16 about the birth of primordials where they were born before the world was formed

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

As before, it's a good idea to understand the definition of the concept again. Said source has shown that Para True Dragon exists as a world concept.

Concept definition, understand, concept definition

It was not stated as Concept. Instead just called as Source of the world with no context. So I will definitely ask for them being a conceptual existence. Anyway I will wait for staffs input. We are just going in circles.

Not yet, because it is in volume 16 about the birth of primordials where they were born before the world was formed

Why are you trying to use that now then? Just argue with whatever currently available

 

[Shereen]

Concept is an abstract idea of something. And Of course True Dragons are that thing because they are Holy WILL of NATURE.

I know that, this thread should have been closed, Op indirectly changed standard Ae 1 (Concept) to get Conceptual manipulation, Oh no

 

[Lesser_Goddess_Alexia]

It was not stated as Concept

You don't have to be called a concept to be a concept.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

You don't have to be called a concept to be a concept.

You don't have to only if you have other ways to prove that. That's via statement or feats which you guys never provided.

I know that, this thread should have been closed, Op indirectly changed standard Ae 1 (Concept) to get Conceptual manipulation, Oh no

If I am wrong staffs will reject my thread. So stop this condensing attitude. Also I am talking abstraction itself not manipulation.

 

[Lesser_Goddess_Alexia]

That's via statement or feats which you guys never provided.

With all the feats I've given you, you say this?

Did you read all the feats that were given or did you just ignore them?

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

I actually have a question in regards to this. We know rimuru gets the abilities via food chain. And we know he gained the abilities of Veldora as True dragon. The veldora that appears in the series are at best merely the embodiment of what you said will of nature.
So why exactly does rimuru gain the abstract existence type 1 when the one under his food chain is the embodiment and not the type 1 abstract as the will of nature itself.

 

[Lesser_Goddess_Alexia]

why exactly does rimuru gain the abstract existence type 1

Rimuru has become a True Dragon (Ultimate Slime) in volume 15

 

[Lesser_Goddess_Alexia]

Rimuru has become a True Dragon (Ultimate Slime) in volume 15

«Of course! So, do you wish to evolve into a True Dragon? YES/NO.»
Fufufu… Fuhaha… FUHAHAHAHA!!
I couldn’t help but perform the three-stage laugh.
At a time like this, it still has to ask YES or NO—while thinking of such a trivial thing, I gave the command.
YES!
In an instant, the agony I’d been feeling vanished. Including pain, heat, and suffering. The new me was immune to the Storm Dragon’s ‘Dragon Spirit Haki’. It was because I could now use ‘Dragon Spirit Haki’ as well.
In other words, the more I ate, the more energy I would gain. My magicule count was increasing rapidly. The rate of increase was so high that I was worried that it would expand beyond control and run rampant.
«No problem. I will manage it perfectly.»
I’m sure you will.
With Ciel, there was no need to worry about that. Now that I was a True Dragon, my magicule count was finally in line with Veldora’s. And I would break through the limit. Here I am, reborn as a new ‘True Dragon.’

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Rimuru has become a True Dragon (Ultimate Slime) in volume 15

Fair I haven't gotten this far yet.

Holy Will of Nature seems to imply something else rather than will itself and this name was coined by the future generation. this scan isn't really proving anything on its own so we proceed with the next scan

The source of the world. This is left vague but if we are to believe this is governing anything do we get secondary proof that implies that the existence of the True Dragon is what created the world? if yes then how so.

The thing about having no attachment to their body's scans kinda shoots the entire argument to the foot due to how one said their manifestations are merely because of the belief of people. meaning them as Abstract Type 1 is powerless and merely exists as a concept as it is and without anything else and since their manifestations are formed by the belief of other people that sound like Type 3 concept instead, their manifestations are reliant on this Concept that is the idea formed by the personal belief of multiple individuals
This would prove abstract Type 1 and 2 for the body but shoots it to being a concept Type 2

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Fair I haven't gotten this far yet.

Holy Will of Nature seems to imply something else rather than will itself and this name was coined by the future generation. this scan isn't really proving anything on its own so we proceed with the next scan

The source of the world. This is left vague but if we are to believe this is governing anything do we get secondary proof that implies that the existence of the True Dragon is what created the world? if yes then how so.

The thing about having no attachment to their body's scans kinda shoots the entire argument to the foot due to how one said their manifestations are merely because of the belief of people. meaning them as Abstract Type 1 is powerless and merely exists as a concept as it is and without anything else and since their manifestations are formed by the belief of other people that sound like Type 3 concept instead, their manifestations are reliant on this Concept that is the idea formed by the personal belief of multiple individuals
This would prove abstract Type 1 and 2 for the body but shoots it to being a concept Type 2

I believe this would warrant a concept Type 3 possibly Type 2 due to how vague it is. and not a full Type 2 abstract.

@Deceived3596 Also i did not know that was added I should recheck all P&A again

 

[ImmortalDread]

This is AE type 2 as long as there is immortality benefit here.

And I am pretty sure this is metaphorical, mind sending me a whole context here?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

This is AE type 2 as long as there is immortality benefit here.

And I am pretty sure this is metaphorical, mind sending me a whole context here?

Also source of the world is kinda referring to Acausality type 4.

Velgrynd smiled fearlessly, remaining unperturbed in the cage of hypergravity.
“As expected of a demon overlord. Your magic is perfectly powerful. However, for so long as you are bound by the laws of this world your attack won’t work against a True Dragon.”
As if to prove her point, Velgrynd shattered the jet-black pillar from within. She raised her own mana and interfered with Carrera’s magic, rendering it powerless.
“Hahaha! As expected of Veldora-sama’s sister, you’re making it seem like a joke. If magic doesn’t work, then there’s nothing more I can do, huh? No! I have a sword technique I’m learning from Agera. It may be useless, but I’ll give it a try!”
Carrera seemed to be enjoying herself, even though her best move had just been defeated. Without any sign of distress, she raised the sword she had created with magic. The beautiful sword had a fierce presence that was unbecoming of a demon. Carrera’s magical energy flowed directly into the blade, giving it a radiant glow.
“This is most likely our only choice. It is not simple magic nor Skill, but a technique you have developed and improved yourself. It may work even against the True Dragons, the source of the world. Veldora-sama says that a woman named Hinata has proven this approach effective.”
Without needing to test it, Testarossa knew that magic would not work on Velgrynd. That was why she had materialized a whip using magic from the very start. The whip was white— a magic formula devised by Testarossa, possessing a contradictory nature known as “freezing white flame.”

 

[ImmortalDread]

This is a classification, and this is nowhere AE type 1.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Also source of the world is kinda referring to Acausality type 4.

from this scan, I think it refers to the laws and not acausality type 4
As they are unbound by laws you would need something not bound by it to affect them
the scan saying the source of the world probably implies these laws are sourced from True dragons.
IDK if we correlate laws and concepts. so guess from here its up to you guys lol

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

IDK if we correlate laws and concepts. so guess from here its up to you guys lol

It depends on the context. Both can be correlated.

 

[Lesser_Goddess_Alexia]

this name was coined by the future generation

The name that coined by the future generation is True Dragon, not Holy Will of Nature. True Dragon exist only as a will, cause they're the holy will of nature and future generation called them True Dragon.

I've given feats about the True Dragon as Will, but it seems it was ignored.

The future generation would instead call the “Holy Will of Nature” as the “True Dragon”.

 

[Shiraito983]

Disagree FRA

 

[Lesser_Goddess_Alexia]

manifestations are formed by the belief of other people that sound like Type 3 concept instead

Its their physical body, not their true form (Will). Their physical body formed by the belief of people surround them.

They are not the manifestation that formed by the belief people. So Type 3 Concept is no no

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Snip

This is a classification, and this is nowhere AE type 1.

It looks like they can't exists as abstraction for longer time. It is still Limited. So it also should be renamed. I will update it in the OP.

If a "True Dragon" dies.

 

[Lesser_Goddess_Alexia]

True Dragons have never really died in the first place. They are the Will itself and will continue to exist as long as the Will exists.

Even if they 'died' they weren't really dead.

Also, you better read the CRT, because it's all there.

«There is no reason to come back. In the first place, Veldanava should be capable of regenerating his body himself if he intends to return»

They weren't really dead

 

[Lesser_Goddess_Alexia]

It seems that the arguments and feats that I gave were simply ignored.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

They weren't really dead

That has nothing to do with what i said. It's about if they can still exists as abstraction without any need of Physical body. Scans Code posted states they can't. That they would gets erased and reborn in a different place.

 

[Lesser_Goddess_Alexia]

That has nothing to do with what i said. It's about if they can still exists as abstraction without any need of Physical body. Scans Code posted states they can't. That they would gets erased and reborn in a different place.

Everyone need physical body in Cardinal World

Its common thing in Tensura

 

[Lesser_Goddess_Alexia]

Everyone need physical body in Cardinal World

Its common thing in Tensura

This has also been discussed in a previous thread (Someone really didn't read the previous thread)

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Everyone need physical body in Cardinal World

Its common thing in Tensura

I think you are not understanding what I am saying. Abstract existence should be capable of existing without physical body for type 1. It shouldn't need a time frame. Having time limit would make it limited abstraction.

This has also been discussed in a previous thread (Someone really didn't read the previous thread)

Its not how you form an argument show me a scan where character can exists as independently as long as he wants without any physical form.

 

[Lesser_Goddess_Alexia]

I have given the feats of how a True Dragon (any Spiritual Lifeform basically), is Lack of Physical Body

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I have given the feats of how a True Dragon (any Spiritual Lifeform basically), is Lack of Physical Body

Then the scan Code posted shows they would disappear then reborn somewhere if they don't have physical body for longer time.

 

[Lesser_Goddess_Alexia]

I'm done. I'm tired of seeing how my arguments and feats are simply ignored.

I will choose to wait for the staff to come.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I'm done. I'm tired of seeing how my arguments and feats are simply ignored.

I will choose to wait for the staff to come.

Same can be said about you being Ignorant on the part where it states True Dragons would disappear without a physical form.

Volume 01.

Could he escape in consciousness form alone? No, because he needed some kind of receptacle.
If he simply burst out in spirit form, his essence would scatter to the winds like the magic itself, erasing his very existence. This would result in the birth of a new storm dragon, somehow, somewhere—I didn’t care about the details by this point. But to sum up, maybe he could escape, but if he did, he’d wind up being something else. It wouldn’t matter to him.

Scans does states dragons would be erased if they doesn't have physical body then reborn into a new one somewhere else. It's not really a permanent abstact existence. It's clearly on limited scale.