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Ben 10 Cosmology Downgrades & Other Things (Yes, this is happening again)

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Antvasima said:
I agree that it seems like a quite unreliable basis for a considerable upgrade taken on its own, and that she also likely referred to the Ben 10/Generator Rex multiverse as a whole.
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Well, the general Multiverse being 2-A was something majority of everyone here seemed fine with because of the timestream statement, so that's more or less okay. Holidays statement however is being used to help treat every individual universe as a 2-A structure, thinking her statement goes for dimensions inside the universe.

But I already said at length why this was a problem to me, so I don't really need to explain it all again to derail. I'll let DontTalk and others review it before moving forward.
 
ImmortalDread said:
He used to, and he posted those when he was in charge, it is still valid.
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If he was involved during the time of the crossover and that statement was done during the time as well, then it should count as evidence.


ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Whats being argued against now currently is each universe being 2-A.
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I don't agree with each universe being 2-A. there is no evidence for that.
 
Antvasima said:
I agree that it seems like a quite unreliable basis for a considerable upgrade taken on its own, and that she also likely referred to the Ben 10/Generator Rex multiverse as a whole.
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Just as @Firestorm808 said above, The context of the entire episode was in-universe dimensions and all evidences has been provided for it so far and that is what for everyone here is agreeing or majority of us including Donttalk who also already agreed but just unsure about how to take holidays statement but even w/o it, it's 2B from Ben's statement. Them being universes is headcanon and have no evidence or basis and contradicted at that, neither any evidence for that has been provided so far but we are just repeating ourselves, people calling them universes is for the sake of calling them universes.

But okay, we can wait for DT's answer once again.
 
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ProfessorKukui4Life said:
What my thread is arguing against is each individual universe being 2-A. The general multiverse of Ben 10 being at least "Possibly 2-A" was agreed to be fine, so I dropped that part of my argument. Whats being argued against now currently is each universe being 2-A.
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I'm not knowledgeable on the verse, but reading through the thread this makes sense to me - that each universe is not 2-A.
 
GyroNutz said:
I'm not knowledgeable on the verse, but reading through the thread this makes sense to me - that each universe is not 2-A.
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That's fine and really not the main issue of this thread considering it was going to be concluded at possibly 2A, the main thing here is if the Dimensions mentioned by holiday are in-universe dimensions, and everything has been argued about it already. That is what will decide if universe is 2B from ben's statement, possibly 2A considering holiday statement made from maths, 2A which basically has been long done.
 
Reiner said:
That's fine and really not the main issue of this thread considering it was going to be concluded at possibly 2A, the main thing here is if the Dimensions mentioned by holiday are in-universe dimensions, and everything has been argued about it already. That is what will decide if universe is 2B from ben's statement, possibly 2A considering holiday statement made from maths, 2A which basically has been long done.
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@GyroNutz
 
Since Holiday is the only basis to go by too say that the Universe contains Infinite Dimensions and this point is already moot.

I agree with it being removed but my vote still remains unchanged for the 2B rating unless there is evidence against it.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
I had asked this earlier since it was brought up by someone else.

Why is Ben taken as a credible source again?
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TF, ben is aware of dimensions, he has been there all the time, he has dealing with it and considering it is a same statement as of doctor holiday but just "number" is different, one of either of them is flowery, doesn't mean it's not credible. It is a consistent statement. Saying each of the statement suggesting there are countless dimensions in the universe is not credible is ridiculous.
 
Reiner said:
TF, ben is aware of dimensions, he has been there all the time, he has dealing with it
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The issue though is that this doesn’t really prove there’s literally millions of dimensions in number rather than Ben possibly just exaggerating the number to simply mean there are a lot of dimensions. He isn’t someone with cosmic awareness on knowing how big existence is.

You yourself even pointed out Ben could’ve just thrown a random number out since he and Rex were in a rush to get out of a situation in that panel.

Reiner said:
and considering it is a same statement as of doctor holiday but just "number" is different, one of either of them is flowery, doesn't mean it's not credible. It is a consistent statement.
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Just because something’s consistent and happens to help you doesn’t automatically make it acceptable evidence by default.

Theres a saying that 2 wrongs don’t make a right.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
He isn’t someone with cosmic awareness on knowing how big existence is.
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Yeah every character has to have cosmic awareness to make statements about things they have dealt many times.
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
You yourself even pointed out Ben could’ve just thrown a random number out since he and Rex were in a rush to get out of a situation in that panel.
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Yeah sure? The point is that universe is too big and if anything he is not exaggerating as there is already a statement with same reason about infinite dimensions, at most he is just expressing how big the universe is. There are countless dimensions.
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Just because something’s consistent and happens to help you doesn’t automatically make it acceptable evidence by default
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In fiction they're. We aren't making baseless assumption that fiction is showing something wrong consistently by the main and knowledgeable characters of the series. That said, I am done here to leave.
 
Dealt with many times and giving a specific literal number are 2 different things. Like I mentioned, “millions” can just be a random number thrown out of Ben to just say there are a lot of dimensions.

Ben going to parallel worlds a lot of the time doesn’t have to mean he knows exactly how large existence is.

Anyway, I’ve said my piece on this already earlier so no need to do it again.
 
What are the conclusions and staff votes here so far? Are you still waiting for DontTalk?
 
Antvasima said:
What are the conclusions and staff votes here so far? Are you still waiting for DontTalk?
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Yes. Staff votes are same and 2A universe argument has been ended long enough the moment DT last replied. It's all about which tier universe will be, possibly 2A? 2B or whatever.
 
I'm against possibly 2-A universes too becuz of the whole Holiday thing already discussed, and i find 2-B universes shaky since it's based on a single line from Ben in a comic. I saw the thread where we decided to make the Ben and Rex comic canon and also Duncan's words in Twitter about trying to find a connection between the series to make the comics canon (as well as his words about the Action Packs) but the wogs in Ben 10 are pretty contradictory since Dwayne McDuffie was also asked about the canonicity about the comics

So, even though the comic features an important Ben 10 staff, which in this case would be Eugene Son (which was one of the arguments used to approve the canonicity of this comic) Dwayne still denies that these stories are canonical to the Ben 10 show. Not only that but we also have Charlotte Fullerton (another Ben 10 staff member) saying that the Ben 10 comics aren't canon to the show even with them trying to connect events to try to make things work and make them canonical.

So my question is, why do we only take Duncan's word in that thread? Duncan contradicts himself many times like in his most recent answer about the comics where he was more direct and said that they tried to keep them canon but things didn't work out so he says he wouldn't consider the comics canon (and that includes the Ben and Rex crossover).

So, the Ben 10 wogs tend to contradict each other but in general the directors themselves don't consider the comics being canonical, i don't know if such a change would require another CRT or we can deal with it in this thread, but in my view the universes should be kept as 2-C since the 2-B would come from a comic that is clearly not canon (which would be Ben's line that there are millions of dimensions).
 
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Shadowbeast said:
I'm against possibly 2-A universes too becuz of the whole Holiday thing already discussed, and i find 2-B universes shaky since it's based on a single line from Ben in a comic. I saw the thread where we decided to make the Ben and Rex comic canon and also Duncan's words in Twitter about trying to find a connection between the series to make the comics canon (as well as his words about the Action Packs) but the wogs in Ben 10 are pretty contradictory since Dwayne McDuffie was also asked about the canonicity about the comics

So, even though the comic features an important Ben 10 staff, which in this case would be Eugene Son (which was one of the arguments used to approve the canonicity of this comic) Dwayne still denies that these stories are canonical to the Ben 10 show. Not only that but we also have Charlotte Fullerton (another Ben 10 staff member) saying that the Ben 10 comics aren't canon to the show even with them trying to connect events to try to make things work and make them canonical. So my question is, why do we only take Duncan's word in that thread? Duncan contradicts himself many times like in his most recent answer about the comics where he was more direct and said that they tried to keep them canon but things didn't work out so he says he wouldn't consider the comics canon (and that includes the Ben and Rex crossover).

So, the Ben 10 wogs tend to contradict each other but in general the directors themselves don't consider the comics being canonical, i don't know if such a change would require another CRT or we can deal with it in this thread, but in my view the universes should be kept as 2-C since the 2-B would come from a comic that is clearly not canon.
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Okay thanks for the contribution, I really appreciate!!! Although, that comic is canon has been agreed upon by each staff here and it's not one statement but 2, holiday statement and ben statement. But okay.
 
Reiner said:
Okay thanks for the contribution, I really appreciate!!! Although, that comic is canon has been agreed upon by each staff here and it's not one statement but 2, holiday statement and ben statement. But okay.
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Like I keep saying, just because something was agreed on before doesn’t mean it can’t be called into question afterwards. Especially when new information comes up that wasn’t factored in before.
 
Shadowbeast said:
I'm against possibly 2-A universes too becuz of the whole Holiday thing already discussed, and i find 2-B universes shaky since it's based on a single line from Ben in a comic. I saw the thread where we decided to make the Ben and Rex comic canon and also Duncan's words in Twitter about trying to find a connection between the series to make the comics canon (as well as his words about the Action Packs) but the wogs in Ben 10 are pretty contradictory since Dwayne McDuffie was also asked about the canonicity about the comics

So, even though the comic features an important Ben 10 staff, which in this case would be Eugene Son (which was one of the arguments used to approve the canonicity of this comic) Dwayne still denies that these stories are canonical to the Ben 10 show. Not only that but we also have Charlotte Fullerton (another Ben 10 staff member) saying that the Ben 10 comics aren't canon to the show even with them trying to connect events to try to make things work and make them canonical.

So my question is, why do we only take Duncan's word in that thread? Duncan contradicts himself many times like in his most recent answer about the comics where he was more direct and said that they tried to keep them canon but things didn't work out so he says he wouldn't consider the comics canon (and that includes the Ben and Rex crossover).

So, the Ben 10 wogs tend to contradict each other but in general the directors themselves don't consider the comics being canonical, i don't know if such a change would require another CRT or we can deal with it in this thread, but in my view the universes should be kept as 2-C since the 2-B would come from a comic that is clearly not canon.
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So the comics in general might not even be canon then?
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
So the comics in general might not even be canon then?
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Yes, you can do a research if you want... you will see that all Ben 10 staff claim that the comics are not canon and even that Duncan statments about Action Packs comics being canon and comics being canonical if there's somenthing that connects them to the series (somenthing that if i remember, Reiner used as an argument) contradicts his most recent answer (September 2020) where he directly states that they tried to make comics canon but it didn't work, so they are not canonical anymore. So in my opinion the universes being 2-C would be a better option since the 2-B are totally based on a single line by Ben from a comic.
 
Shadowbeast said:
Yes, you can do a research if you want... you will see that all Ben 10 staff claim that the comics are not canon and even that Duncan statments about Action Packs comics being canon and comics being canonical if there's somenthing that connects them to the series (somenthing that if i remember, Reiner used as an argument) contradicts his most recent answer (September 2020) where he directly states that they tried to make comics canon but it didn't work, so they are not canonical anymore. So in my opinion the universes being 2-C would be a better option since the 2-B are totally based on a single line by Ben from a comic.
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They are generally not canon, doesn't mean all of them are non canon smh, all comics being canon and action pack being canon is 2 different things, got ya? 🦣

And it's damn 2 statements one by holiday and other by ben. It's cringe to not be 2B and just way over doing it on a specific verse. But I'll let the staff decide.
 
Shadowbeast said:
Yes, you can do a research if you want... you will see that all Ben 10 staff claim that the comics are not canon and even that Duncan statments about Action Packs comics being canon and comics being canonical if there's somenthing that connects them to the series (somenthing that if i remember, Reiner used as an argument) contradicts his most recent answer (September 2020) where he directly states that they tried to make comics canon but it didn't work, so they are not canonical anymore. So in my opinion the universes being 2-C would be a better option since the 2-B are totally based on a single line by Ben from a comic.
Click to expand...
Very interesting. This ironically further coincided with my original point that it’s even more problematic to try using vague twitter answers as evidence for large upgrades like this if contradictory results like you showed (thanks for providing this btw) happen to be present.

Anyway, if the canonicity of the comics in general is wrong, then yeah, I’m fully against 2-B as well.
 
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